You know what I'd like to see?

[bandgeek]

A study done on pain responses in older boys and men having circs done. We already have the info on babies. How their bodies react to the pain..HR, blood pressure, crying, respirations and what-not. I want the other side so that when people say "but it's SO MUCH WORSE when they are older" we can tell them it's 100% BS and "here's the research to prove it".

How do we go about finding someone interested in studying that?

[BlessedMommy2006]

Well, one thing that jumps out at me as a problem with doing that type of study is that 99.99% of men will never need a circ for medical reasons in their lifetime. So doing a study of that sort, would mean doing a whole bunch of circs that aren't actually necessary.

But assuming that you had the test subjects, hmmm. Who would do a study like that? I don't know. In order for it to have valid results, you kind of need to get a neutral party to do it. And who is truly neutral when it comes to circ? I'd be afraid that the results would be slanted according to the researchers bias. (like just about every other study on circ out there)

But it is too bad that we don't have such a resource for sharing in discussions.

But actually when people say it's less painful for an adult, I think that what they really mean is that the infant won't remember it. Poor rationale for performing surgery on an unconsenting minor, but that unfortunately seems to be the line of logic.

[bandgeek]

Originally Posted by BlessedMommy2006

Well, one thing that jumps out at me as a problem with doing that type of study is that 99.99% of men will never need a circ for medical reasons in their lifetime. So doing a study of that sort, would mean doing a whole bunch of circs that aren't actually necessary.

No, they don't need them, but they are getting them done in America anyway, either for cosmetic reasons or because they believe it is necessary. It's not like we'd be marching them in to get them done SOLEY for the purpose of the study. I think something like 10-15% of intact boys in america eventually have it done for one reason or another? There isn't a shortage of test subjects.

[BlessedMommy2006]

Originally Posted by bandgeek

No, they don't need them, but they are getting them done in America anyway, either for cosmetic reasons or because they believe it is necessary. It's not like we'd be marching them in to get them done SOLEY for the purpose of the study. I think something like 10-15% of intact boys in america eventually have it done for one reason or another? There isn't a shortage of test subjects.

Good point. If they're getting them done anyway, may as well glean the info.

[CookAMH]

I'm curious about the baby info. I have often thought that my intact 9mo has tolerated teething quite well (rather unnoticeable) because he wasn't circ'd or vaxed.

[hakunangovi]

I have to think that circumcisions performed on older children and adults are far less traumatic than what a newborn boy has to endure. For one thing they are aware of what is taking place and why. They are usualy operated on under a general anaesthetic and given ample pain medication, and can ask for more if things get uncomfortable.

I would also like to see some research on what other changes take place in the brain, besides an altered pain response. It is acknowleged that many infants become detached from their mother following circumcision, and that special bond between mother and child is compromised. Does this carry on into adulthood and affect the man's relationships for ever?

Memory of the event is another interesting topic. Most circumcised males do not consciously remember their foreskin being cut off, but apparently a few do. Some years ago there was a lady in California who was attempting to write a thesis on this subject. She had collected stories from mothers who related how their sons had vocalised a memory of being circumcised. Sadly, I believe she ran out of funding and never completed the project.

[PuppyFluffer]

I think you have to acknowledge that the pain of circumcision has a permanant effect on the bonds of trust. I've often wondered if men in intact cultures are less suspicious of relationships, more trusting and secure. I have also wondered if the general refusal to see a physician until nearly dead that many men have is a result of the fear and pain of circumcision.

I also think that birth trauma has long term effects too.

[LavenderMae]

Originally Posted by CookAMH

I'm curious about the baby info. I have often thought that my intact 9mo has tolerated teething quite well (rather unnoticeable) because he wasn't circ'd or vaxed.

My youngest had the worst time of teething (he had bouts of inconsolable crying) and he is intact and my only completely unvaxed child. I was actually (unhappily) surprised at how painful it was for him.
I do however believe the study that linked infant circumcision to a lower pain tolerance but of course being intact doesn't mean easy teething.

I think it would be nice to have a study backing up what seems obvious; infant circumcision is no less painful or any easier than ones done later on but more painful and traumatic over all.

[calngavinsmom]

Originally Posted by CookAMH

I'm curious about the baby info. I have often thought that my intact 9mo has tolerated teething quite well (rather unnoticeable) because he wasn't circ'd or vaxed.

Here is one study that was done at the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto Canada:
http://www.infocirc.org/babypain.htm

I thought it was interesting.

[hakunangovi]

[QUOTE=PuppyFluffer;15007334] I have also wondered if the general refusal to see a physician until nearly dead that many men have is a result of the fear and pain of circumcision.

Well, I can tell you that for as long as I can remember I have been terrified of any medical setting, be it a doctor's office or a hospital, and to this day my blood pressure goes up by about 40 points whenever I am in one of those settings.