my kids are always in trouble

[pomplemoose]

We've gotten into a horrible cycle, they are ALWAYS in touble, or so I think. We're not very GD and DP says that they'll learn eventually but the road there is just awful. we never do anything fun anymore, everyone is always in trouble. DD stole from the store (i wrote a thread about that) so she was in trouble last week, the same day she is no longer grounded the kids get sent to bed early because they wont stop fighting. This morning i get woken up at 7am by yelling and arguing, they wont stop! so we're not going to their first basketball class. Im just so sick of the arguing, they share a room we dont have money to get a bigger place so that s not going to change any time soon. but i can absolutely not take it anymore. i just spent $40 on them to take this class and now they're not even going! its money i just should have spent on bills. I just hoped it would be something fun to do on sat mornings for the next month but NO they just cant stop fighting long enough, or breaking things/rules long enough to actually enjoy life. its like everything i do just gets pushed to the limit. if I say yes to something they just want another, if i say no to something they whine and argue. what happened to my beautifully behaved kids that i had a year ago? you know the ones i took to the library every other day the ones that i took out to lunch because their behavior is so good, the ones that i spent hours at the park with because they got along. I feel like every time i do something im being taken advantage of, and thats not how i want our home to be. if i offer a cookie i dont get a thank you anymore i get a "why cant i have 2?" when is enough enough. when are they going to respect me again. i dont think ive changed but our dynamics sure have. honestly right now life sucks at our house, currently they're in their room because i just coudn't handle the fighting (over bathrooms (even though we have 2) over cereal over bowls over brushing teeth) but goodness its only 9am.

I need to know how to get us out of this messed up rut that were in its ruining us! if i give in they just run me down, and if i stand up we never get to do anything. i feel like they never learn at this point, how many times do you have to be told the same thing, and be disciplined the same way when you do it, before you get that you just shouldnt do it?

AHHHHHHHHHH im drowning over here, please help!

TIA

[CarrieMF]

they sound like typical siblings. They could also be bored & are fighting because of it.

I would have taken them to basketball class even though they were fighting. Going to the class would have gotten some of their energy out & would have tired them out.

[MadiMamacita]

Just a few quick ideas- Can you spend more one on one time with them each? even just a quick walk with DD, go to the park with DS.. etc. My first impression was that they are acting out in order to get more attention from you.
And, since they share a room, they would probably enjoy some time apart. I know when I got all cooped up with my brother we would just fight fight fight.

second, can you try to let the smaller things slide? choose your battles as they say. That way they won't always feel like they are getting in trouble. And when they do something you like, tell them! It doesn't have to be a "wow, good job" for every single thing, but you could say "Thanks for brushing your teeth without a fuss."

I understand you feeling taken advantage of. That must feel terrible. Sorry you are feeling that way. The only thing I can think of for that is to really reinforce the kind of behaviors that you like to see.

This part of your post stood out for me: "how many times do you have to be told the same thing, and be disciplined the same way when you do it, before you get that you just shouldnt do it?"
clearly, something about that isn't working. maybe its that the consequence doesn't make sense for the action. Maybe you need to look at more natural consequences. Or, instead of putting so much attention on the behaviors you DON'T like, try putting more emphasis on the behaviors you DO like.

Kids want your attention, and they will do what they need to do to get it. They will take negative or positive attention over none, but they would prefer positive attention to negative.

HTH mama, sorry you are having a rough time!

[pomplemoose]

I agree that we just need a fresh start, but its hard because DP doesn't agree with me on that. And i feel like everytime we get that fresh start it ends up back where it was. I know i need to give them more attention, but its hard when i work 50 hours a week dp works and goes to school full time and were struggling financially. Really i know i need to make my priorities and they dont understand that once dad finishes school that life will be better for all of us. its just so stressful and difficult. I try to give them positive attention but somehow i fall back into the negative. We just had a talk about how i like being proud of them and how good we all feel when we do the right things. I just cant handle the arguing. were going to try basketball next week. if it were up to dp they'd probably just spend a week in their room which obviously isn't the solution. I work at 4 pm til 12 or so so im tired during the days but i get up and do stuff anyway. They dont understand that, and they're not understanding of it either. I think we need to revise our schedule, and i need to tell my boss that i cant work so many nights. DP and I haven't been able to go on a date since before christmas and i know thats stressing me out too. Its just a bad combo of things over here. and your support really helps. Maybe we'll go to the library or something instead, i always feel awful when they miss out on stuff but I cant let myself get run over by my kids all the time.

Does anyone have any good schedules or books or something. i was thinking maybe showing them a calendar of all the things we'd do with our free time would help, give them something to look forward to some one on one time. Things have changed a lot since DP started school we used to do lots of stuff as a family and now were slacking i can see how they are feeling lost or forgotten. I used to only work 25 hours 4 or 3 days a week, and dp was always off work by 4 pm, so we had alots of time together. I guess a busy schedule isnt really worth it, its definitely not working for us.

[karne]

Something that really stands out is how drastically your family's schedule has changed. I know that 2 years ago we had a similar change, and it did impact the children quite a bit. They didn't ask for it, or want it, and they had no say in the matter-it was work related. It wasn't reasonable to expect that they would understand or be empathetic about something they didn't experince as positive. It took a solid year to get our feet underneath us in terms of adjustments, schedules, as well as carving out family time. And, family time looked a bit different, but all in all, it's working right now.

As the mom, I have really had to hold on to the idea that my kids were reacting to change, and I couldn't make them not go through all of the emotions that went along with it. I could hold my expectations for behavior, but I found I needed be be extra (and I do mean extra!) understanding. What helped when things felt stressful was to get out of the house! Keeping everyone inside, punishing, creates a pressure cooker. Try to let go of the punishment, love them through the uglies, and do whatever you can to create lightness, peace and stability. Good luck!

[spicyrock]

op, I don't have any advice, but I wanted to say I'm sorry you are having a tough time. It sounds like ya'll have had a scheduling upheaval- and in the future, when your dp finishes school and you work fewer evenings, things will get better- remember that! I know it can be hard to lose sight of how temporary things are when you are stuck in a rut- but one day, you will look around and realize that things are running smoothly again.

I remember when I was in freshman year of high school, my (single) mom started law school (in a town with no extended family) and I was sharing a room with my little brother in a small apartment- we fought all of the time, and my mom was always so tired. It was miserable for all involved... but we got through it. And my brother and I later became very close.

Stay strong

[Fuamami]

I agree with MadiMamacita. Especially their quote about why they won't learn.

I have to ask, why aren't you learning? I mean this gently, but just to point it out. You and your dp are doing the same thing over and over, and you aren't getting any better results. Your relationship with your children isn't improving, their behavior is getting worse, and yet YOU still doing the same thing. So why would you expect more from them, even though they are just children?

I would recommend "Siblings Without Rivalry" if you have time to read a book. I don't pay much attention to my kids' fighting, unless it's where they're going to spill or break something. The result is that they hardly ever fight. I think it's because when small conflicts come up, they don't have the added pressure of feeling like they're going to get in trouble so they feel more freedom to resolve them. I think this is actually true for most situations. The added threat of a punishment makes it very hard for some kids to behave. And talking about how you want to be proud of them makes it worse! Maybe you should be proud of them no matter what! If they knew you would be, that might free them up to actually concentrate on learning how to control their emotions.

Sorry, I hope that wasn't too harsh! I really understand, I even have to give myself this talk quite often. Especially when our family is busy and things are stressful, it makes me wish they could just behave, YK?

[SunshineJ]

Wow it sounds like there's a lot going on. It's easy to fall into a self defeating cycle and that sounds like what's happening all around. At this point I'd guess that as soon as your kids start fighting your attitude changes to "here we go again" and it just keeps spiraling downward for everyone. I'm going to be direct here. You need to stop. What you're doing is not working. Blaming children that are 6 and 1? 2? is not working. Blaming your DH is not working. Blaming anyone, including yourself, never fixes anything, it just passes the buck and makes it easy to keep doing what's not working.

If the kids are fighting, they can't spend time together for a while. That has *nothing* to do with basketball, library or any other activity unless the fighting occurs at the activity. Your youngest doesn't have any concept of what she's missing at this point. "You were fighting so we don't go to xxx". She doesn't understand that and won't for a few years. Unless your son knows and loves the activity, it means nothing to him as well other than, yeah, we may have done something a little fun today, but I may or may not be missing out on something. If they are fighting, send them to separate rooms to cool off for a while. One can go in your bedroom if needed. Make the rule that fighting is not acceptable behaviour for the house, give one warning when tempers begin to flare, and then immediately separate them. You don't have to yell, you don't have to be mean, you don't have to be punitive about it. Just, if you don't get along, then you can't play together right now.

Also, I think part of the problem is in the statement "we used to do fun stuff together". The kids have had a lot of changes and they seem to have lost fun time with mom in the process through no clear fault of their own. Remember always that they are young, they are children, and their misbehaviour is nothing personal towards YOU. DO take them out to fun places again. If they act up while there, immediately leave and tell them why. Then try it again in a couple days. Lather, rinse, repeat and before long they're back to acting the way you want them to when out in public. GD and AP doesn't mean that you have no boundries or that the kids are allowed to run amok with no rules or consequences.

Finally, it's HARD to break the cycle, both with the kids and with yourself, and it's easy to wake up feeling "here we go again". I've been there, I think most parents have. And kids will pick up on that tension and negative energy from the get go. What has always worked for me, and really does wonders is for the first few days, fake it. When my kids have been rotten for days on end and the last thing I want to do is interact with them and I have trouble keeping my cool, I fake it. I "pretend" to be the perfect mom - the one with unlimited patience, who doesn't raise her voice, who ponies up and spends good time playing with the kids and going places. Whether I want to or not, I step into a role of doing so. Everytime within 2 days I've regained my balance and I'm back to actually being the mom I want to be. And everytime the change in the behaviour of the kids is astounding.

Hugs! It get's tough, and with the overall stress level you have right now it's no wonder you're at wits end! But you can do this!

[bluebunny]

SunshineJ, it looks like her kids are six and eight.

OP, hugs! I can understand. Your post resonated with me because I have felt the same way before. Parenting is hard. It looks like you are in the midst of a stressful period right now with yours and DH's schedules. One thing I thought of is that maybe your kids need more activity -- like the park, basketball, etc. Sometimes being cooped up can make kids more apt to fight. I also second the idea of spending more one-on-one time with them, individually. I have noticed that it helps my relationship with mine when I do that.

HUGS!

[pomplemoose]

Thanks everyone for your advice, and i know DP and i are what need to change. The kids are 6 and 8 so they know action and consequences. DP was raised in a very strict way and im trying to bring some positive into it but its hard. DP came home for his lunch break and we had a chance to talk. I signed me and my DD up to volunteer at the local humane society and me and DS are going to do a reading program at the library. They are going to basketball together and are already doing swimming lessons together too. Mostly winter here sucks because it rains so much and we dont get to do out and do all the fun things we do other times of year. We also set our one day home together to be dedicated to more family time. I showed the kids a calendar of what we were doing and they were very excited. I think this will be a good turning point for us. Thanks again for your help!

[MadiMamacita]

OP- sounds like a great start! post again in the future and let us know how its going!

and i second the PP who mentioned plenty of exercise as the key to better behavior. if you cant go out in the rain, is there somewhere indoors you could all go run around? laser tag or something? a skating rink- either ice or roller?

[sapphire_chan]

Your kids have cabin fever and are driving you bonkers and you kept them from getting physical activity with someone else's supervision?? Y'know, part of what's great about GD is not punishing yourself through poorly considered artificial consequences for your kids.

[sapphire_chan]

and I recommend Playful Parenting, it is a very practical book and very dad friendly. Great stuff on siblings what's behind resisting instructions everything you've talked about.

sorry if my post above sounded too mean, I just was so struck by the combination of living in a small space and taking away active time.

[Lachesis]

Wow, there are some great ideas/suggestions. (((Mom))) I hope it works out for you and your kids.

[Kuba'sMama]

Hi, you've got all great advice already, so I'll just say one thing that jumped out at me. My kids are also boy and girl (younger though) and they also share a room in a small apt. They also do spend a lot of time together, play together quite well etc. What we are always very aware of though is to give them time apart. Since they already share a room and spend so much time together, aren't there any other extracurriculars available than a shared basketball class?
My kids are a bit younger, but their interests are quite different from one another. Luckily for us, we have great city programs which cost about what you mention you pay ($30-40). We looked around for a community centre which offered different programs for the kids the same day/time (less driving around). So when my son is doing his drawing class, my daughter is in ballet down the hall. I think it celebrates their individuality, lets them meet other friends and have a break from each other as well.

[nextcommercial]

Originally Posted by CarrieMF

they sound like typical siblings. They could also be bored & are fighting because of it.

I would have taken them to basketball class even though they were fighting. Going to the class would have gotten some of their energy out & would have tired them out.

Yes, that's what I was thinking. I'd try to take them to anything that makes them run themselves tired. Plus, a happy tired kid isn't going to fight as much. (it wont stop completely)

Plus, that gives you an hour to unwind too. You have to learn to take the peace and quiet wherever and whenever you can. Even if it's just one hour on a saturday morning.

Try not to tie a consequense with somethig has has nothing to do with the crime. The fighting, and the basketball had nothing to do with each other.

One way to try to avoid a saturday morning meltdown... You could set them up the night before with a snack (or breakfast) and set the TV up on a channel they want to watch. (that they both agree on the night before)

If they are too loud, or fighting, then they can go back to bed until YOU are ready to get up and deal with them. But, let them know that if they DO wake you up early, that the rest of the morning will not be fun for them. I bet you can think of some really good chores to get done before basketball instead of watching tv. My mom always said "If you are so bored that you are fighting, then you need to clean out the basement....I don't want to see you until you are done". *that was always followed with an hour of "See what you did?"... "NO see what YOU did?" "You started it" "No YOU started it". But, either way... if we wanted to watch "land of the Lost" on Saturday morning, we'd better be quiet til mom got up.

Basketball is an obligation. They signed up for it, they should show up. There are teachers and helpers who are giving up a saturday morning to be with these kids. All the kids should be there giving it their best.

[lilyka]

they sound terribly bored. you said you live in cramped quarters, haven't got a lot of money and cancle what little entertainment you have because they are in trouble. They need to get out and do fun things or their behavior is only going to get worse. I am not saying reward bad behavior but keep consequences seperate from the few things you can do to contribute to healthy and positively active minds and bodies.

consequences should be quick, consistant (if they break the same rule 10 times you need to react all ten times in the same way. but pick which rules are important to enforce) and something you can live with.

not everything is punishable. when my kids fight if they are fighting over something it is mine. no need for grounding them or making a huge issue out of it. sometimes they just are surely. if it is warm I send them outside to argue. I don't care. sometimes I care sometimes I don't, the key is they know the difference and they know when I say stop it is time to stop or there will be consequences (because the consistant rule is when mom says enough you better not test it).

teach them how to behave. keep them right next to you and teach them what they should be doing. give them chores, activities and moniter thier actions and step in before it leads to trouble. redirect them in what they should be doing. this will take a lot of your time. all day every day from the time they get up until they are asleep and you need to make sure you are awake before them. that is what parenting is. "go play nicely" will not get you the results you are looking for. good behavior does not happen in a vaccum. some kids have got to be taught how to behave and live in peace.

how many times do you have to teach them the same lesson? correct the wrong behavior? I have 100 times in my head for some reasons. i forget where I got that from but what I took from that lesson was somethimes you will teach the lesson 100 times in one day. do not get discouraged. you are just running the race that much faster. if you are consistant in teaching that lesson it doesn't matter if it is 100 times in a day, a week, a month or a year they will get it and trying days are cause for rejoicing because they get us there faster.

[LynnS6]

We're in Oregon too and tempers are running a bit high here at times too. We just can't burn off enough energy between rain showers. I'm sacrificing our lawn these days to play baseball with ds. Even so, our kids are spending far too much time on the tv/computer/wii these days.

Two other thoughts:
A lot of these behaviors sound like attention seeking behaviors. It's hard to give your kids the attention they need when you've got such a hard work schedule. Anything you can do to help that will probably reduce some of these behaviors. One of the things that would mean for me is that I would not make punishments anything that reduces your time together.

The basic message of a fair number of parenting books that I love is: Filling up your child's cup of attention makes discipline easier. Everything from acting out to sibling fighting is often much better when the basic need for positive attention is filled. For a child, the only thing worse than negative attention is no attention. So, they will take negative attention in lieu of anything else.

I would second Playful Parenting, not only because Playful Parenting really works for our family, but I love how he talks about the need for connection. (His chapter on siblings is very helpful.)

Now, positive attention can't solve everything. We still regularly have issues with our kids. But I think it does help things not spiral out of control. Dd and I had a very negative week. I took her swimming this afternoon and it was a good thing. She said on the way there and on the way back "it's good to have some momma time."

Another really good book that might help is: The Challenging Child - it's meant for kids who need more help than it sounds like your kids need, but I find the approach very very helpful, even for my kids (who are overall pretty good). The thing that I like about it is that it focuses first on connection, then on problem solving and only then on consequences. I wonder if the approach might be a good fit for your family, given what you've posted.

[pomplemoose]

I really appreciate everyone's advice, and definitely will take it! DP and i talked more between our shifts today and really agreed that we needed to change our behaviors. Our first rule now is to really focus on not getting mad. I am so scared that DD is going to grow up and not want to talk or confide in me if things continue the way they are, we were so much closer a year ago then we are now and it breaks my heart, but I'm going to do what ever it takes to fix it. Im really working on letting things go, so what if something spills, so what if rooms are a little messy its just not that important right now. we went to the library today and i got playful parenting, im going to read a bit before bed tonight so far it looks pretty good. i really just want my family back and im willing to do anything to get that. I Have signed us up for one on one activities and I think that will help, they both want to do swimming lessons so i m going to try to sign them up at seperate times, maybe do lunch or ice cream afterwards just to make it special. I am really regretting not taking them to the basketball class today, i was just having a really bad mom day. i guess there's nothing i can do about it now but maybe make it up to them some other way. There's only the boys and girls club here, and DS is too young to go. Other than that there's really nothing to do in this small town during winter. maybe we'll go bowling tomorrow thats not very expensive.

[LynnS6]

It sounds like you're on a good path!

One reminder: the things you do don't have to be going somewhere or cost money. My special time with ds yesterday was playing school with him and playing baseball in the backyard. Dd loves to bake (ok, she loves to eat cookie dough!). Even on days when we've spent a lot of time yelling at each other, we end with stories, a prayer and a good night.