Elective csection...ugh - Page 2

[katelove]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo

Do people have the right to make UNinformed decisions?

I mean i'm all for information, and i got as informed as i could before i had DD, but honestly i was going to have a homebirth. I have a friend who had a surprise breech homebirth which resulted in fetal demise. I am still having a homebirth. Sure the stats support my view, but even if they didn't i would be having a homebirth. It's very handy for me that homebirth is as safe as hospital birth, but if it wasn't...i would still be terrified in hospital. So i would still give birth at home. And no amount of information on how i would be safer in hospital would inspire or help me in any way.

If you had all that information though it would still be an informed decision even if your decision wasn't supported by the evidence. It would only be an uninformed decision if you chose to have a homebirth but had no idea that it was less safe than a hospital birth (to use your example).

ETA - to answer your question yes, I think people do have the right to make an uninformed decision. As long as they know there is information which they don't have which could *potentially* influence that decision.

It doesn't make any sense to me but I know that people do sometimes refuse information we try to provide them at work and, as long as they're capable of understanding the implications, we just document that they refused the conversation.

[trippingbillies]

Originally Posted by momz3

I have to agree with you. The op never mentioned having a discussion WITH this lady. Instead of bitching about it on a forum, maybe she can offer some helpful information. Complaining about it to strangers will most likely do nothing.

kltroy had some good advice.Thank you, have a nice day!

OP here I don't want to give up too much information as I don't want to unintentionally "out" anyone but trust me, the MTB in this situation is having an elective csection for all the wrong reasons. Yes, it is her choice. No, I am not going to be awful to her over it. She is what I would consider to be an intelligent person but a spoiled person as well, hence her selfish choice. And honestly...I do think less of her as a person for making this choice. She chose to become pregnant and now she cannot be bothered to go through labor and delivery like the rest of us commoners?Again, I get it if a person has gone through trauma or has a medical condition or whatever....bring on the medically/psychologically necessary csection. Otherwise...I dunno...

Motherhood is not always about convenience or comfort.

[LemonPie]

Originally Posted by trippingbillies

And honestly...I do think less of her as a person for making this choice. She chose to become pregnant and now she cannot be bothered to go through labor and delivery like the rest of us commoners?

Her choice is in no way a statement or judgment on the way YOU choose to birth.

And unless you're walking around in her skin, you don't know ALL the details. You know only what she has chosen to share with you.

I think people do have the right to make an uninformed decision. As long as they know there is information which they don't have which could *potentially* influence that decision.

I agree.

[GoBecGo]

And honestly...I do think less of her as a person for making this choice. She chose to become pregnant and now she cannot be bothered to go through labor and delivery like the rest of us commoners?

I don't get this. I had an amazing birth. There is NO WAY i would trade it for a cs unless i was facing death for me or babe if i didn't. When a woman chooses an elective cs, she usually does it through fear and lack of understanding. Maybe it sounds like it'd be easier to have someone cut this huge baby out of you but the vast majority of women who have had both VB's and CS's prefer to VB, the only one i know who doesn't actually nearly died during her VB, had to have 4 surgeries in the 5 days after the birth, 15 units of blood transfused and 4months unable to walk around.

Even YOU seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that an elective cs will be "easier" than a VB, and that's just not true. The more hellish labours, yes, will potentially be worse than a cs, but the risks that a cs will be bad are far higher. The potential complications are much higher. C-sections are safe, but VB's are safer. VB's can be painful and difficult, but so can the days and weeks and for some unluckier women MONTHS after a cs.

If you're feeling upset because she won't "suffer like you did" then i wouldn't worry, the chances are she'll suffer, physically at least, at LEAST as much and potentially far more.

[scottishmommy]

It sounds like your friend is having trouble letting nature take over. I think it's a control thing. She's afraid of letting go of control over her body, and would rather know when, where and how the baby will be born. I can understand where she's coming from. Even mainstream mamas are aware that they are at the mercy of the staff when they walk through the doors to the hospital. I think that your friend has a vague feeling of danger and is trying to make the best decision for herself. Highly medicalized births are VERY unpredictable and at times very dangerous. Of course, planned sections are dangerous, somehow they don't have the same amount of drama. Imagine if she ended up with a section because her baby is in distress from pitocin? Then she would have the trauma of thinking her baby might die AND have to recover from a c-section. If she were a little crunchier I bet she would want a homebirth.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo

I don't get this. I had an amazing birth. There is NO WAY i would trade it for a cs unless i was facing death for me or babe if i didn't. When a woman chooses an elective cs, she usually does it through fear and lack of understanding. Maybe it sounds like it'd be easier to have someone cut this huge baby out of you but the vast majority of women who have had both VB's and CS's prefer to VB, the only one i know who doesn't actually nearly died during her VB, had to have 4 surgeries in the 5 days after the birth, 15 units of blood transfused and 4months unable to walk around.

Even YOU seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that an elective cs will be "easier" than a VB, and that's just not true. The more hellish labours, yes, will potentially be worse than a cs, but the risks that a cs will be bad are far higher. The potential complications are much higher. C-sections are safe, but VB's are safer. VB's can be painful and difficult, but so can the days and weeks and for some unluckier women MONTHS after a cs.

I think the issue, in society at large, is that, for whatever reason, we constantly compare and contrast uncomplicated cesareans with complicated vaginal births. If someone brings up a c-section that went bad, there are screams of "but that's not always the way it is"...but bringing up vaginal births that had complications is the norm. I don't get it, but I see it over and over and over and over.

[SilverFish]

regardless of whether it's entirely fair or not, i think that this forum can serve as a place for us to vent our frustrations, whether about our own experiences or what we percieve to be a bad judgement on someone else's part. sure, the OP might not have all the facts, but you can't deny that elective c/s are carried out with alarming frequency in our culture and in others. and part of the frustration comes from the fact that elective surgery that carries no risk to anyone but the patient (plastic surgery etc) is often looked down on or questioned... but elective surgery that carries risks to not only the mother but to a baby as well is totally acceptable and completely glossed over.

honestly, as women, i think we have a right to be a bit disturbed or upset when we see someone making a birthing choice which we know to be un or underinformed, because their choices DO affect us. the more people that turn to automatic c/s, the less likely it is that we and our daughters and their daughters will be able to access safer birth options. the trend of c/sing breech births, for example, is only going to get worse, because for every woman who doesn't demand a vaginal birth, there is one more provider who never has to learn this valuable skill.

[GoBecGo]

Originally Posted by SilverFish

regardless of whether it's entirely fair or not, i think that this forum can serve as a place for us to vent our frustrations, whether about our own experiences or what we percieve to be a bad judgement on someone else's part. sure, the OP might not have all the facts, but you can't deny that elective c/s are carried out with alarming frequency in our culture and in others. and part of the frustration comes from the fact that elective surgery that carries no risk to anyone but the patient (plastic surgery etc) is often looked down on or questioned... but elective surgery that carries risks to not only the mother but to a baby as well is totally acceptable and completely glossed over.

honestly, as women, i think we have a right to be a bit disturbed or upset when we see someone making a birthing choice which we know to be un or underinformed, because their choices DO affect us. the more people that turn to automatic c/s, the less likely it is that we and our daughters and their daughters will be able to access safer birth options. the trend of c/sing breech births, for example, is only going to get worse, because for every woman who doesn't demand a vaginal birth, there is one more provider who never has to learn this valuable skill.

While i completely agree with your sentiment i think it's exactly what the media and obstetric community want for us to point our fingers at the women and not those providing this surgery. If a woman dies after being given insulin she had no medical need of the doctor is struck off at LEAST, and would probably face manslaughter or murder charges (depending on whether it was given by mistake or by design). If she dies after elective surgery he waves his signed "informed" consent form and we all tut and shake our heads and say "she didn't do her reading!". Why does the buck stop with women? Why do we expect people who lack information, support and confidence to avoid risks which they are unaware of while their surgeons, who know EXACTLY what they are doing, profit from their patients ignorance?

[Swan3]

Haven't read all the replies but think that we need to respect others choices even if we don't like those choices.

I'm reading Women's Bodies, Women's Wisdom and Dr Northrup also expresses frustration over women choosing c-sections as a matter of course. She goes on to ask if we can really blame them considering that we now live in a society where birth is considered a collective emergency and sold to women over years and years as scary.

Maybe asking questions is where it's at? Maybe gently letting her know that c-sections are actually riskier than normal births. I know that for me, having had both a c-section and a VBAC...recovery was like night and day. It took me almost a year to feel normal after the section (which I really didn't want to have!!!)

As for what it "costs" people...I guess yes...the cost gets passed on to others. But likely so for many other things...I've been in this position before with other friends but found that rather than be annoyed or angry I was worried for them and expressed that worry for them. One friend actually was afraid of tearing like she did with her last birth (which was quick and traumatic), after experiencing a tear myself (VBAC) I was able to tell her I far preferred it to the 6 month ordeal healing from surgery.

My point? I guess if we want to change this about our society we have to do it with compassion...our birth culture is sick and we need to make it healthy again.