Circumcision Question - Page 2

[MamaMonica]

Moved to TCAC, per the DDC guidelines.

[Quirky]

Originally Posted by at_the_hip

If we end up being shocked on Wed with news of a boy, dh will make the decision. He has trusted me with many choices and I have to give this to him. He realises that I would prefer not, and that he would have to make arrangements to find a Dr, pay for it, and be in there during the procedure. I'll just pray and I'm sure dh will make the decision that he feels best - I am ok with that as long as he takes the time to be informed.

But will your son be OK with it? He's the only person who will ever live inside his own body and use his penis for peeing or for sex.

And will his future wife be OK with it? Or will she look at you and wonder why the heck you and your husband thought you had a right to alter your son's body and their sexual relationship permanently?

Just because your dh has a penis, doesn't give him the right to cut up someone else's penis.

This choice is different from all other choices. This is far more significant than where baby is born, what baby eats, where baby sleeps, how baby is carried, what medical treatments baby receives. Those are all valid parenting choices that reasonable parents can and should discuss, because there are reasonable arguments to be made for different ways of doing things.

But cutting the most sensitive part off someone's penis is not a parenting decision. Particularly not when the decision to cut is usually made by a cut father who, deep down, needs to think that cut is better because otherwise he faces a world of loss and hurt.

Please don't leave this decision to your husband because it's "payback time" for you making parenting decisions. Because your baby's body is yours to protect, not yours to bargain away in the name of marital harmony and decision-making rights.

[objet_trouve]

It seems to me that the Penn and Teller episode has been removed from youtube. You can find it on facebook though. I posted a thread the other day with links to each part.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...024&highlight=

[NamastePlatypus]

Show him the video of it being done and that is is not medically called for, it is an elective surgery with far more dangerous risks than benifits.

Also when ds1 heard my friend and I talking about it ( her ds1 is his BFF and was done without consent) we talked about it with him and he got real upset that it happened to his BFF. He knows it doesn't hurt but everyonce in a while now but when he found out what they did and how, he got really sad. He said that it must have been the worst ever because when his penis got slammed on by the toliet seat that that hurt and none of his got cut off. He told dh thank you for not letting them hurt me and he will tell pregnant people not to cut there babies puds.

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

Originally Posted by Quirky

But will your son be OK with it? He's the only person who will ever live inside his own body and use his penis for peeing or for sex.

And will his future wife be OK with it? Or will she look at you and wonder why the heck you and your husband thought you had a right to alter your son's body and their sexual relationship permanently?

Just because your dh has a penis, doesn't give him the right to cut up someone else's penis.

This choice is different from all other choices. This is far more significant than where baby is born, what baby eats, where baby sleeps, how baby is carried, what medical treatments baby receives. Those are all valid parenting choices that reasonable parents can and should discuss, because there are reasonable arguments to be made for different ways of doing things.

But cutting the most sensitive part off someone's penis is not a parenting decision. Particularly not when the decision to cut is usually made by a cut father who, deep down, needs to think that cut is better because otherwise he faces a world of loss and hurt.

Please don't leave this decision to your husband because it's "payback time" for you making parenting decisions. Because your baby's body is yours to protect, not yours to bargain away in the name of marital harmony and decision-making rights.

this shouldnt be about your dh finally getting something he wants. What about what your ds wants? This decision will only affect you and your dh right when your ds is born. It will affect your ds for the rest of his life. He may be one of the many with circ complications. Odds are you will never even know about them since some only show up when sex is involved.

I just cant grasp allowing my dh to let that happen just so he will feel like he was getting equal time in choice making. This isnt a choice for you or your dh to make it belongs to your ds.

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

OP what happens if he does decide to make the arrangments to have it done? Will you step back and let it happen or will you end up in a huge fight over it right when you are your most vurnerable after giving birth?

I would settle it now and tell him it isnt happening so that he can have to to get used to before your ds is born.

[eepster]

I'd let him forget about it. For many men having it brought up just makes them feel defensive. They need to defend the type of penis they have.

If you don't bring it up, and he just forgets about it, it will probably just be a non-issue for him.

If by some chance he happens to remember it, then you can argue and put you foot down, but for now just leave it be.

[blessed2bmommy]

We talked last night. It went really well! Much better than anticipated.

He wants to do his own research before we make a final decision, but I know if he takes an honest look at it, he'll find the same info I presented last night.

We agreed on the deadline of the end of the 2nd trimester. I told him at that point, when I bring it up and he still hasn't done the research it says to me that it really isn't that important and he'll agree not to circumcise. He thought this was fair.

Thanks for all the advice!

[jenP]

What Quirky and MDCatlvrmom2A&X said.

Every circ'd man has that knee-jerk reaction of insisting his son be cut. It is just a defense mechanism to protect themselves from facing that they had part of their genitals amputated without their consent. Understand this and be respectful of his feelings. But, a need to validate his own circumcision does not make it right for him to circumcise his son. You can't just cut up other people's genitals so that you can go on feeling okay about yourself.
As for the "you get to make all the decision, I just want this one" card: circumcision is not a decision for him OR you to make. It is up to your son and no one else. His body, his rights, his decision. If your husband wants more involvement in making parenting decisions, then he should become more involved in researching and discussing parenting decisions. But circumcision is not a parenting decision, it is a decision for your son to make when he is grown.
Sounds like your husband instinctively sees that your daughter has basic rights to not have body modifications done on her without her consent; that the choice to pierce her ears or not is her choice to make when she is grown. He will eventually see that your son deserves the same rights (it is just hard for him to see the logic because it is a very emotional subject for him, since he was never given a choice.)

Best of luck to you!

Jen

[Arduinna]

Over my dead body. I totally do not get the idea that it's "his decision". As mothers it's our job to protect our children. Even if that means protecting them from the other parent that wants to mutilate them. We didn't end up having any sons but I told my dh from the begining that there was no way I'd allow a child of mine to be circ'd. It did cause tension to say the least. But with education he eventually came around and is now an intactivist too.

[KGB]

Being a man, I wholeheartedly apologize for the entire male species for being pigheaded, stubborn, self-righteous, and generally a pain in the ass. I appreciate the lengths you women go to, to convince us of what is right. (although I never needed convincing NOT to circ).

[jocelyndale]

I flat out told my husband it wouldn't happen. I wouldn't let him alter a baby girl's genitals (or ears), so why a baby boy's genitals? Then I pointed out that since *I* am intact, I am far more qualified to make choices about it.

He was all too willing to agree because he's like that, but I wasn't willing to settle for that. I wanted him to be an intactivist. I made sure he was exposed to lots of information on circumcision and he quickly came around to agreeing that the whole practice is barbaric. I don't think anyone can truly research it and come out in favor of it. Sure, a half-hearted skimming might do the trick for folks who don't want to hear the truth, but not real research.

Various forms of sexual dysfunction which can be attributed to circumcision were major talking points.

In the end, it was reading books on AP (and the Continuum Concept) which sealed the deal. He is wholeheartedly in favor of raising our child gently and inclusively and the thought of whacking off his willy first thing doesn't really fly. Starting out life being ripped from the safety of the womb is bad enough. No more trauma, no more violations of bodily integrity . . . just love.

[erin23kate]

As for the "look like Daddy" argument - take a look at this recent post! I thought it was perfect.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1190743

"Recently, I was helping my just-turned-5yo DS in the bath and I reminded him to wash his feet, his butt, his penis, all the usual spots. When I got to the penis, he said "Daddy doesn't pull it back in the shower." I said, "That's because Daddy doesn't have a foreskin." DS said, "And when I grow up I won't have one either."

DS has seen XH naked in the shower and has walked in on both DH and FIL in the bathroom - all three circ'd. He was under the impression that grownups don't have foreskins, but kids do, and that when he grew up he wouldn't have one either. I had to explain to him (in simple terms) that they were born with one but the doctors took it off, but we know now that it's better not to mess with it, so he has his.

He got this very thoughtful look on his face, looked down at his penis, twiddled the foreskin, looked up at me with this amazed look on his face, and said, "But it's the best part!""

[Arduinna]

awww how adorable.

[NamastePlatypus]

Originally Posted by erin23kate

As for the "look like Daddy" argument - take a look at this recent post! I thought it was perfect.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1190743

"Recently, I was helping my just-turned-5yo DS in the bath and I reminded him to wash his feet, his butt, his penis, all the usual spots. When I got to the penis, he said "Daddy doesn't pull it back in the shower." I said, "That's because Daddy doesn't have a foreskin." DS said, "And when I grow up I won't have one either."

DS has seen XH naked in the shower and has walked in on both DH and FIL in the bathroom - all three circ'd. He was under the impression that grownups don't have foreskins, but kids do, and that when he grew up he wouldn't have one either. I had to explain to him (in simple terms) that they were born with one but the doctors took it off, but we know now that it's better not to mess with it, so he has his.

He got this very thoughtful look on his face, looked down at his penis, twiddled the foreskin, looked up at me with this amazed look on his face, and said, "But it's the best part!""

PRICELESS!

Funny you say this, I thought the same thing. My brother is intact and my dad is not, I remember being very little and seeing my dad and not really taking time to try and compare. Once I got to my late teens and I saw one again it looked a bit different but I guess I thought it grew into itself or something. Then I had a partner form Ireland and S.Africa.... ohhh MAN did I notice a difference then!

[dinahx]

IMHO, this is not at all about your DH, it is about your son and about your duty as a mother to protect him. What if it was his earlobe that was up for removal? I don't believe at all in leaving it up to the DH. Why? Just because a man owns a car doesn't mean he knows a thing about auto mechanics! When a mother leaves it up to her DH and he decides to Circ, in reality, legally, she decided to Circ. Her signature, in all normal, ethical situations is required and trumps his.

[Tinijocaro]

Originally Posted by Arduinna

Over my dead body. I totally do not get the idea that it's "his decision". As mothers it's our job to protect our children. Even if that means protecting them from the other parent that wants to mutilate them. We didn't end up having any sons but I told my dh from the begining that there was no way I'd allow a child of mine to be circ'd. It did cause tension to say the least. But with education he eventually came around and is now an intactivist too.

I have an idea-let dh choose the crib bedding, the stroller style and all that other stuff. Then, he doesn't have leverage saying you get to make all the decisions.