Time to learn about oxalates

[Theloose]

Oxalates are found primarily in plant foods, and they are created in our bodies. The amount in breastmilk has a wide variation.

In the gut, they are bound to calcium (if there's calcium to bind to) or else they're degraded by gut bacteria, or else they're absorbed into the bloodstream. Antibiotics are good at killing off the oxalate-degrading bacteria.

In excess, oxalates can cause a huge range of issues, and they can deposit. Which means you can have 'oxalate dumping' symptoms if you change the gut balance.

Other nutrients are closely related to oxalates, including calcium, magnesium, B6, biotin, and I'm sure a bunch more

Threads:
changingseason's OAT results and oxalate discovery
Epsom salts and oxalates

Testing:
OAT, urine oxalates, ?

Websites:
http://www.lowoxalate.info/research.html
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/444683-overview

Yahoo groups:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group..._Low_Oxalates/
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/VitaminK/
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury/

[changingseasons]

[Theloose]

Oxalates in general:

Originally Posted by mamafish9

According to some posts in the autism-mercury forum:

1) you can get high oxalates from metals toxicity

2) l-carnitine and coqQ10 are good antioxidants and help with oxalates

3) milk thistle is really high in oxalates (as I say uh oh, better go read about that) - don't know if you're taking it, but thought I'd mention it

4) apparently grainy poops can be a sign of high oxalates - wasn't someone asking about that recently?

5) oxalates deplete gluthianone (big for detox), increase inflammation, and mess with zinc utilization

6) can cause bedwetting (Shannon, relevant for you?)

7) ALA (which some people use as a chelator, reduces oxalates. (I know you're read Tanya's stuff on how strong ALA is).

8) Lots of parents report whining/clinginess as an oxalates symptom

9) Many people with oxalates issues can't tolerate much vitamin C

10) Some people find b6/mag helps with oxalates, and vitamin K

11) High oxalates often come out as rashes/spots/even sometimes hives

12) There's a probiotic called vsl#3 that has strain that is supposed to help process oxalates

Originally Posted by whoMe

"Oxalate is known to impair carboxylase enzymes producing symptoms equivalent to biotin or biotinidase deficiency."
http://www.lowoxalate.info/research.html

Originally Posted by mamafish9

More, from this link:

...Increase intake of essential omega-3 fatty acids, commonly found in fish oil and cod liver oil, which reduces oxalate problems (23). High amounts of the omega-6 fatty acid, arachidonic acid, are associated with increased oxalate problems (24). Meat from grain fed animals is high in arachidonic acid."

And from my autism resources again, high oxalates can cause histamine release and histamine sensitivity.

[Theloose]

Causes of high oxalates:

Food

According to Great Plains, elevated glycolic and/or glyceric acids are associated with one type of hyperoxaluria, and B6 deficiency is another cause.

Originally Posted by mamafish9

More, from this link:

... if you are high in copper, then vite C tends to be converted to oxalates. So maybe supping vite C isn't your first step here...

Originally Posted by whoMe

It would appear that there's a lot of variation in the oxalate content of breastmilk:
http://mobile.journals.lww.com/jpgn/...&article=00002
if you scroll down and look at the testing results, it ranged from 40 to 160! My mind is boggling over here at the implications of that and things like, say, cavities in a 12mo...

Clearing oxalates:

Oxalates bind with calcium and/or magnesium (when taken with a meal). Alternatively, they can be degraded by some bacteria strains, especially Oxalobacter formigenes.

Originally Posted by changingseasons

Looking further into this article I've been reading... looks like calcium supping is definitely the most recommended treatment for enteric.

Initial first-line therapies include a low-oxalate diet while maintaining adequate calcium intake, pyridoxine (vitamin B-6), increased fluids, and optimization of other calcium oxalate nephrolithiasis risk factors. Limit ingestion of vitamin C and cranberry juice products. Calcium supplements are the initial treatment of choice for enteric hyperoxaluria, along with a low-fat diet, antidiarrheal therapy, and sufficient potassium citrate supplementation to maintain optimal urinary citrate levels. Vitamin E can be safely added to any hyperoxaluria treatment regimen.

The intestinal tract is normally colonized with Oxalobacter at approximately age 3 years. Oxalobacter loss is primarily due to prolonged or repeated antibiotic therapy. Fluoroquinolones, cephalosporins, tetracyclines, and macrolide preparations are particularly toxic to Oxalobacter bacteria, while penicillin and sulfa drugs have relatively little effect.

Originally Posted by mamafish9

More, from this link:

"Excessive fats in the diet may cause elevated oxalate if the fatty acids are poorly absorbed because of bile salt deficiency. Nonabsorbed free fatty acids bind calcium to form insoluble soaps, reducing calcium ability to bind oxalate and reduce oxalate absorption (20). If taurine is low in the plasma amino acid profile, supplementation with taurine may help stimulate bile salt production (taurocholic acid), leading to better fatty acid absorption and diminished oxalate absorption.

...Both Lactobacillus acidophilus and Bifidobacterium lactis have enzymes that degrade oxalates (22).

Originally Posted by WuWei

VSL#3 Lactic Acid Bacteria Probiotic

COMPOSITION PER PACKET OF VSL#3
Lactic Acid Bacteria: - 450 billion/packet

Streptococcus thermophilus
Bifidobacterium breve
Bifidobacterium longum
Bifidobacterium infantis
Lactobacillus acidophilus
Lactobacillus plantarum
Lactobacillus casei
Lactobacillus bulgaricus

Other Ingredient contained in VSL3: Corn Starch

http://www.crohns.net/page/C/PROD/Probiotic/VSL3000
http://www.crohns.net/Miva/productinfo/whyVSL3.shtml
http://www.vsl3.com/about-vsl-special.asp
http://www.vsl3.com/healthcare.asp


Pat

Originally Posted by mamafish9

CS, the oxalates fighting bacteria we were talking about upthread - Oxalobacter formigenes. I've been noodling on that one, since there's no probiotic supp avaialble with this strain. It's a commonly occurring soil organism - I'm wondering if soil based organism probiotics (like here), might possibly contain this strain? Or just go eat dirt ... (I know they said most kids colonize this bacteria around 3yo, and I'm wondering how they do it...)

Originally Posted by menomena

it's talked about in the lowoxalate.info site, i think. see here: http://www.lowoxalate.info/research.html

and here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/pmc/articles/PMC124017/

edit: here's the page to the company working on that strain-specific probx: http://www.oxthera.com/products.php doesn't look like it's available yet, though?

[Theloose]

Interacting with other nutrients:

Originally Posted by Panserbjørne

People who have oxalate issues have the opposite affect from epsom salt soaks. It generally revs kids up beyond the point of control. It can also be uncomfortable for them. But yeah, lots of people report it's like giving their kids espresso and depriving them of sleep all at the same time.

Originally Posted by Panserbjørne

Yes, oxalates *can* cause diarrhea all on their own. In this case it's the mag which can disrupt the calcium that is usually required in excess to deal with the oxalate issue. Enough mag for the average person isn't always the most comfy thing for someone with oxalate issues.

[dannic]

I'm just now getting up the courage to look into sals and histamines and now you throw this at me???

My poor brain can't take it!!!

[Theloose]

I've been reading in the low oxalate group...

One idea for oxalate degrading bacteria is to eat fermented high oxalate foods. I think I see some pickled beets and ginger carrots in my future...

And they talk a lot about oxalate dumping - a period of improvement followed by a return of symptoms. And that it can take on the order of a year to finally clear most of the stored oxalates. Fun. I wonder how dumping impacts breastmilk levels... compared to not addressing the issue at all.

[changingseasons]

A year?!

eta: So you're thinking that in the fermentation process, bacteria will form that destroy the oxalates? Why specifically high-oxalate foods? I have some chard stalks that I put in the cupboard months ago... and forgot about. hmm. But wait- the oxalates are in the greens- of beets too. The stalks (or beets) wouldn't be high oxalate, would they? And ginger is not supposed to be that high either.

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by changingseasons

A year?!

eta: So you're thinking that in the fermentation process, bacteria will form that destroy the oxalates? Why specifically high-oxalate foods? I have some chard stalks that I put in the cupboard months ago... and forgot about. hmm. But wait- the oxalates are in the greens- of beets too. The stalks (or beets) wouldn't be high oxalate, would they? And ginger is not supposed to be that high either.

It's known that fermenting can reduce oxalate content, so the idea is to ferment a high oxalate food as 'bait' for the oxalate degrading bacteria.

"Beet greens and to a lesser extent, the roots contain high levels of oxalate."
http://www.copperwiki.org/index.php?title=Beetroot

And carrots are supposed to be fairly high. The ginger is just to make them taste better

[changingseasons]

Ok- can we talk about why the same food would be high/low in oxalates when eaten raw, but the opposite when cooked? I had assumed that they would be lower when cooked, but now that I'm going through the food lists again, some are exactly the opposite. Like collards- very low when raw, high when steamed. Medium when boiled. Also- why does steaming raise the oxalates so much, as opposed to boiling? Are they just dispersed through the cooking water?

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by changingseasons

Ok- can we talk about why the same food would be high/low in oxalates when eaten raw, but the opposite when cooked? I had assumed that they would be lower when cooked, but now that I'm going through the food lists again, some are exactly the opposite. Like collards- very low when raw, high when steamed. Medium when boiled. Also- why does steaming raise the oxalates so much, as opposed to boiling? Are they just dispersed through the cooking water?

Yeah, that's confusing me as well... I'm kind of just assuming the oxalates are bound somehow when raw, and that cooking makes them more bioavailable. And that boiling washes away a significant portion. But that's just a guess. Some part may have to do with quantity, too? Like 100g raw isn't the same as 100g cooked, cause water is lost/gained?

[changingseasons]

Originally Posted by whoMe

Yeah, that's confusing me as well... I'm kind of just assuming the oxalates are bound somehow when raw, and that cooking makes them more bioavailable. And that boiling washes away a significant portion. But that's just a guess. Some part may have to do with quantity, too? Like 100g raw isn't the same as 100g cooked, cause water is lost/gained?

Yeah- that's exactly what I was thinking, but then what about the collards?

I'm trying to figure out what else I can do with our diet- just about everything we eat is high oxalate. I guess I can start boiling our broccoli and carrots for a start. Yuck.

[Theloose]

I'm wondering if you can crave high oxalate foods. We've got a serious addiction to them going on over here...

[Theloose]

http://www.livingwithout.com/issues/...en-1236-1.html
"If this diet is helpful, there should be improvements (between “dumps”) in the areas of physical comfort, complex thinking, sociability, speech, gross and fine motor skills, energy, loss of stiffness and amelioration of skin problems, such as eczema. Children may be willing to eat foods previously avoided and their craving for high-oxalate foods may disappear. After detoxing is complete, a process that can take several months to a couple of years, higher-oxalate foods can be gradually returned to the diet."

[beadmama]

We originally had dds OAT done for oxalate levels but they turned out fine. When I spoke with the bio-chemist and Great Plains I asked her opinion of GAPS/SCD. She said they were both good diets and has seen many kids helped with them but she sees problems with oxalates due to them. The amount of oxalates eaten seems to increase on these diets due to the high amount of high oxalate vegetables. She said to take calcium when eating a high oxalate diet to help bind them and process them out of the body.

[Theloose]

I have a question that I don't want to forget. When limiting oxalates, how much is it necessary to limit total oxalates, vs bound oxalates? As in, spinach is high in oxalates, but it's also high in calcium. Chocolate and peanut butter are really high in oxalates, but they're also high in magnesium. Vs carrots or sweet potatoes, which are high in oxalates, but IIRC, aren't particularly high in cal or mag.

[Koalamom]

Subbing!

Great compiled info. To me it just seems so unnatural to cut out all those amazing oxalate foods. But I know I need some changes.

I have some thoughts and think we may have oxalate issues. We consume many oxalate rich foods, but many months ago, we were consuming lots of raw dairy, I mean all the time. We went through several gallons of raw milk a week, mainly yogurt, especially eaten by me and my 2 yr dd. We ate a ton of cheese, several pounds a week. We have cut that out in last 2 months. For the first 2 weeks we saw great improvements without the dairy. Rashes faded and things were looking good. Then all of a sudden things are getting worse, and my dd now has been crying about her new molars coming in. She has never ever has issues before.

This makes me think that we have oxalate issues. Now I am thinking of adding back in the dairy because it will help us in the long run. Any thoughts?

And to add, my son has a very low tolerance for Vit C. I take just a little, breastfeed him, and he gets the runs, 10 times a day. I would like to know more about reducing the load of oxalates in breastmilk. Is this pointing to high oxalates?

[mamafish9]

The dairy is interesting - we definitely see less sandy poops from DS now that he is back on dairy. What were your dairy symptoms? Increasing mag intake along with adding dairy back might help.

[Koalamom]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

The dairy is interesting - we definitely see less sandy poops from DS now that he is back on dairy. What were your dairy symptoms? Increasing mag intake along with adding dairy back might help.

With my dd it is rashes behind her legs and sometimes the rest of her body. She gets bad cradle cap, and I think this is dairy related, not 100% sure. She is almost 3 yr old. She does get sandy poops, but I never knew they were oxalate related.

With my ds who is 6 months old. He gets really congested and cranky. He does get rashes, but I am not sure how much is dairy related or from other foods or issues from me as the toxin dumper breastfeeding.

With these symptoms would you add dairy back in to try to lessen oxalate issues?

What were your symptoms? And what kind of dairy did you add back in?

[Koalamom]

Originally Posted by whoMe

I have a question that I don't want to forget. When limiting oxalates, how much is it necessary to limit total oxalates, vs bound oxalates? As in, spinach is high in oxalates, but it's also high in calcium. Chocolate and peanut butter are really high in oxalates, but they're also high in magnesium. Vs carrots or sweet potatoes, which are high in oxalates, but IIRC, aren't particularly high in cal or mag.

Just a guess is that chocolate may be a bigger issue because is it also high in salicylates, etc.

For some reason, carrots are just fine for all of us, but sweet potatoes are bad for us all. My gums hurt bad and all the way out to the other end (), and my dd gets really rashy. Carrots have no reaction at all.