Difference between Catholicism and Protestantism

[ursusarctos]

So I'm taking a class on John Donne, and this issue came up today. We read one of Donne's Holy Sonnets:

THOU hast made me, And shall thy worke decay?
Repaire me now, for now mine end doth haste,
I runne to death, and death meets me as fast,
And all my pleasures are like yesterday;
I dare not move my dimme eyes any way,
Despaire behind, and death before doth cast
Such terrour, and my feeble flesh doth waste
By sinne in it, which it t'wards hell doth weigh;
Onely thou art above, and when towards thee
By thy leave I can looke, I rise againe;
But our old subtle foe so tempteth me,
That not one houre my selfe I can sustaine;
Thy Grace may wing me to prevent his art,
And thou like Adamant draw mine iron heart.

We discussed how this poem is about Donne feeling sinful and begging God to save him because he's helpless (more or less). I brought up what I thought was a basic Christian belief, and that I thought Donne was talking about here: That one is saved "by grace not works" (from Ephesians, right?) - one is sinful by nature and is saved only by the grace of God and his gift of his son and if that gift is not accepted then no amount of good deeds will save you. The teacher then commented that that was a very Protestant view, and there was further commenting that this is a very Protestant poem, and that Donne is perhaps not feeling all that secure about being saved by Grace alone even though he has accepted Christ as he feels himself to be a terrible sinner (all of this in the context of Donne having converted from Catholicism to Protestantism in adulthood and under cultural pressure). So then one student asked what would be different about the Catholic requirements for salvation and nobody could really come up with a clear answer (I live in a heavily Protestant country so that is what almost everyone has been exposed to).

So now I am wondering, because I never really thought about it before, what is the basic difference between Protestant and Catholic "requirements" for salvation? Both require an acceptance of Jesus Christ as savior, right? But are Catholics also required to attain their salvation through "works" (like the sacraments) or is following Jesus enough? Somehow I always thought that Catholicism and Protestantism were not all that different, but now it suddenly seems that they are fundamentally different. I know that Catholicism also has the emphasis on church tradition as a source of valid spiritual knowledge whereas Protestantism (in general or just sects?) emphasizes sola scriptura. But I didn't realize that theological differences really went all that much deeper than that. Or do they?

I personally come from a Protestant background, though I read some Catholic blogs. I am not Christian but am very interested in Christianity and genuinely curious about the question I raised above. I would so appreciate it if someone could illuminate this for me.

[lolar2]

The differences between Catholicism and Protestantism have changed somewhat over time of course. However, yes, in Catholicism the requirement was that in addition to faith, one had to follow certain practices-- sacraments including baptism, confession (to a priest as intercessor, not just to God directly the way Protestants do), and some others.

The impetus for the Reformation in the early 16th century was that in Catholicism, there was a belief that souls which were almost but not quite heaven-worthy, would go to Purgatory for a while (like a few years) to have their remaining sins expiated. So at the time, the Church would sell indulgences-- you could pay a fee to the church, and someone would say some extra prayers for you and you'd allegedly and effectively buy yourself out of a year of Purgatory, and get into heaven that much sooner. Martin Luther considered this to be a corrupt practice and that's why he emphasized so much about "salvation by grace not works"-- because the "works" he referred to were the selling of indulgences. The Catholic church no longer sells indulgences now. Some other reformers followed Luther's lead with their own alterations. Then later in the 16th century there was the Counter-Reformation, where the Catholic church leaders met together and decided, yeah, there are some issues here with corruption so we are going to fix that up, and the Catholic church itself made its own reforms....

Does that help?

[Smokering]

The differences between Catholicism and Protestantism are huge. HUGE. At their heart is, I think, the question of the "rule of faith" - sola Scriptura (most, not all, Protestant denominations) vs Scripture (including the deuterocanonical/apocryphal books) interpreted by Sacred Tradition. Their epistemologies are different, their church hierarchies/structures are different, their canons are different... and to confuse it further, Catholics and Protestants often use the same words to mean different things, so there's a lot of confusion when dialoguing. Even differences which seem pretty minor often reflect extremely different theologies.

I come from a Reformed position, which is much less like Catholicism than Arminian Protestantism is. Reformed Christians believe in the possibility of assurance of salvation (based in God's promises and external as well as internal proofs of salvation). That doesn't preclude doubt, of course, so a Reformed Christian could still have written Donne's poem. Was he Calvinistic or Arminian?

Also, if you're into John Donne you should see the movie Wit, based on a play, starring Emma Thompson. It's a harrowing watch (about a woman dying of ovarian cancer) but a brilliant film, and the main character teaches John Donne. One of his poems (Death be not proud, death thou shalt die) is quoted in the movie several times... it's a cool film.

[mamabadger]

Here is a chart which shows the contrasting beliefs between Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox Christianity. Not very in depth, but maybe useful as a reference for the discussion.

[xekomaya]

This is such a huge question I might be able to help with the faith & works part..

Catholics believe that salvation is by faith and works. It is not so much "accepting Jesus Christ as savior". Although no one would deny it, that phrase barely makes sense to a Catholic. We know Jesus Christ is the Savior, Redeemer, etc. To be "saved" as a Catholic a person must die in a state of Grace, or rather, NOT in the state of mortal (serious) sin. That means being baptized to remove original sin and either a.) never committing a serious sin or b.) having true contrition and doing everything we can to get to confession and receive absolution from a priest. We don't believe our personal works have significant value to meriting salvation. You can't feed 50 million hungry mouths and "earn" heaven, however we see great value in even small things if they're done with love of God. We see the purpose of this life is to learn to love God, and the best way to do that is by imitating Him. The Sacraments are a source of Grace to help us do this - not the only source or the only way to receive Grace.

Hope that is not too jumbled

[lolar2]

Smokering- John Donne was Anglican when he became a Protestant.

[ursusarctos]

Thank you all ladies, that was very helpful.

lolar2, I had learned about the role of indulgences in sparking the reformation but never connected that to the Protestant emphasis on "grace not works" (didn't even know Luther emphasized that so much). That makes a lot of sense.

Smokering, gosh, I don't know. As lolar2 said, he was Anglican, which I had always thought was very similar to Catholicism theologically but apparently isn't. I don't know what kind of Protestantism the Anglican church falls under...

mamabadger, thank you for the chart! It was very helpful and interesting to see the beliefs laid out side by side like that.

xekomaya, thanks for the explanation. It did make sense.

So am I correct then if I say that for Catholics it is a mixture of Grace and "works" (the sacraments, which are another way of receiving Grace) and for Protestants it is Grace (accepting the free gift of Jesus' sacrifice) alone? Or is that still too simplistic?

[xekomaya]

I think you're close, but Catholics don't consider the Sacraments "works".

We are saved by Christ's grace alone, through faith and works done in charity inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Here is a link to a super solid Catholic explanation: http://www.fisheaters.com/solafide.html

[lolar2]

Yeah, Catholics don't consider sacraments "works" but Protestants generally do.

Anglicanism is pretty similar to Catholicism in terms of ritual and practice, but theologically it is more Protestant. I don't think it falls under either Calvinism or Arminianism, since it reformed directly from Catholicism for mostly-political reasons.

[ursusarctos]

Thank you for the informative link, xekomaya. I think I understand now.

So both Protestants and Catholics are saved by Grace alone, but the difference is that for Protestants after the moment of accepting Christ (being saved) further good works are done simply out of gratitude for God's free gift and are not necessarily required for salvation; whereas for Catholics salvation is a process and requires continual reciprocation from us in the form of good works and continual acceptance of Grace through sacraments? At least that's what I got from the article's analogy of the Christian as a member of God's family and receiving an inheritance of salvation that requires one to be a good "family member" (not just believe in the family) in order to get it.

I'm sorry if I'm butchering this! I just really want to understand

ETA: Just saw lolar2's post - so for Catholics the sacraments are not "works" but works are nonetheless required for salvation (as per James 2:14-26 quoted in the article)? I am guessing that Protestants would look at those same verses as meaning that we really should do good works because it will enliven our faith, but that this does not trump the Ephesians 2 verses that say we are saved by Grace alone? Again, sorry if I am misunderstanding.

Also, regarding Anglicanism - that's why I thought it wasn't so different from Catholicism, since as far as my high school history classes taught it was pretty much a change in name only so that Henry the 8th could divorce his wives. I'd actually be interested to know what kind of Protestantism Anglicanism is.

[Purple Sage]

[lolar2]

Originally Posted by ursusarctos

Also, regarding Anglicanism - that's why I thought it wasn't so different from Catholicism, since as far as my high school history classes taught it was pretty much a change in name only so that Henry the 8th could divorce his wives. I'd actually be interested to know what kind of Protestantism Anglicanism is.

This website says that Anglican is mostly Reformed, at least historically. http://reformedtheology.org/SiteFiles/WhatIsRT.html

[Smokering]

I believe the Protestantness of Anglicanism differs greatly between high- and low-church, liturgical/traditional and evangelical congregations. My sister goes to an evangelical Anglican church in London that's Reformed or next door to it, but I know they aren't all like that (perhaps because of the historical ambiguity surrounding the formation of the Anglican church? I don't know. Hopefully Bluegoat will weigh in).

The Protestant view of James is that he uses the word "faith" with a different shade of meaning to Paul. Whereas Paul's "faith" would naturally encompass good works as an result of the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit, James was using the word in a way that referred to mere intellectual assent - an academic belief that conveniently remained separate from a person's everyday life, which was therefore of no use to anybody. Or, as John Calvin put it, "Salvation is by faith alone, but saving faith is never alone". Does that make sense? (I assume Catholics also believe Paul and James used different shades of meaning in the word faith - not sure how they'd avoid contradiction otherwise, and the CC upholds inerrancy.)

[cagnew]

lolar2: That was not the reason why they were selling indulgences. It had to do with funding the building of St. Peters. It actually started out as a good thing and ended up being very badly abused. Catholics still believe in purgatory and indulgences, by the way.

Just wanted to clarify that.

[ursusarctos]

Originally Posted by Smokering

The Protestant view of James is that he uses the word "faith" with a different shade of meaning to Paul. Whereas Paul's "faith" would naturally encompass good works as an result of the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit, James was using the word in a way that referred to mere intellectual assent - an academic belief that conveniently remained separate from a person's everyday life, which was therefore of no use to anybody. Or, as John Calvin put it, "Salvation is by faith alone, but saing fith is never alone". Does that make sense?

Aha! Well that makes a lot of sense.

[JMJ]

Originally Posted by Smokering

The Protestant view of James is that he uses the word "faith" with a different shade of meaning to Paul. Whereas Paul's "faith" would naturally encompass good works as an result of the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit, James was using the word in a way that referred to mere intellectual assent - an academic belief that conveniently remained separate from a person's everyday life, which was therefore of no use to anybody. Or, as John Calvin put it, "Salvation is by faith alone, but saving faith is never alone". Does that make sense? (I assume Catholics also believe Paul and James used different shades of meaning in the word faith - not sure how they'd avoid contradiction otherwise, and the CC upholds inerrancy.)

Actually, Catholics believe that James and Paul are speaking about the same kind of faith. The interpretation that they are speaking with different definitions is a Protestant idea. According to Catholics, when Paul says that we are saved by faith, he is saying that faith is essential for salvation. He is not saying that faith alone is what saves us. James gives more, not contradictory information, saying that faith alone without works is dead because even the demons believe. Our response to faith is essential.

Sacrament means sign. For Catholics, sacraments are one way that God gives us his grace. According to the Bible, baptism is essential for salvation, and according to the Catholic teaching, mortal sin (serious sin committed with full knowledge and consent, thereby completely rejecting the grace of God) must be confessed in the sacrament of reconciliation in order to be saved. Other sacraments bring grace into our lives, but they are not essential for salvation. Grace is God's free gift to us. We can choose to accept it or reject it through our actions.

While things like faith, baptism, good works and reconciliation for any moral sin are essential for salvation, Catholics do not believe that God cannot freely choose not to ever save someone who does not meet these requirements, but we can't be sure that anyone who does not believe and be baptized would be saved either. God's mercy is so great that we cannot fully understand it in this life, but we need to do everything we can to put ourselves in a state of grace.

There are many different Protestant religions these days. They were all started by a rejection of one or more Catholic beliefs, but most of the groups that broke off from the Catholic faith have had groups break off from them. Within just a couple years, 2 of my closest Protestant friends at the time had differences in beliefs in their church that brought splits in the church where half the church went with the old pastor, and half of the church elected a new pastor. This makes it very difficult to tell you what "Protestants" believe because that is such a broad category. Mammabadger's chart is a good primer on what mainstream Protestants believe, but it does not account for the entire range of beliefs.

[lolar2]

Originally Posted by cagnew

lolar2: That was not the reason why they were selling indulgences. It had to do with funding the building of St. Peters. It actually started out as a good thing and ended up being very badly abused. Catholics still believe in purgatory and indulgences, by the way.

Just wanted to clarify that.

I have no problem with selling indulgences. Martin Luther did. That's all I was saying.

[Nitenites]

Just throwing this in here, but Catholics believe we receive grace through the sacraments. They are not "works" but more like a conduit. (Not the best word I could come up with, sorry. It's late.)

[christianmomof3]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

Here is a chart which shows the contrasting beliefs between Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox Christianity. Not very in depth, but maybe useful as a reference for the discussion.

Thank you for sharing that chart. It is very interesting and informative.

[ursusarctos]

Hmm, so Catholics don't see the sacraments as works (but good works are nonetheless essential to salvation, right?) but Protestants do? It's not just that Catholicism and Protestantism have different doctrines, but also that they define basic things very differently. So basically, I'm going to get completely different answers to my original question from Catholics and Protestants?