Difference between Catholicism and Protestantism - Page 2

[lolar2]

Originally Posted by ursusarctos

Hmm, so Catholics don't see the sacraments as works (but good works are nonetheless essential to salvation, right?) but Protestants do? It's not just that Catholicism and Protestantism have different doctrines, but also that they define basic things very differently. So basically, I'm going to get completely different answers to my original question from Catholics and Protestants?

Yep.

[ursusarctos]

Originally Posted by lolar2

Yep.

Well that explains a lot! Thanks for clarifying

[Smokering]

It's worse than that, actually. Catholics and Protestants also disagree on what the sacraments are. Catholics have seven; Protestants typically have only two, baptism and the Lord's Supper. I believe the Protestant definition (in my church, anyway) of a sacrament is a means of grace God gave specifically to the church, instituted by Jesus. So, while Protestants are very keen on marriage and consider it a Good Thing, we don't consider it a sacrament as Catholics do (because it was instituted for all mankind in Eden, not for the church by Jesus).

[lolar2]

I think the Anglican church actually recognizes 7 sacraments. It's been a while since I worked in one though, so I'm not 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure. Some of them are much rarer/ more optional in Anglicanism than in Roman Catholicism (priest-mediated Confession and Last Rites-- you can have both if you want them but they are in no way required or expected).

[Smokering]

That's very possible. Maybe other denominations do too, and there are probably some who don't have a concept of sacraments at all... and I have no idea about Eastern Orthodoxy's views on the matter.

[mamabadger]

Originally Posted by Smokering

That's very possible. Maybe other denominations do too, and there are probably some who don't have a concept of sacraments at all... and I have no idea about Eastern Orthodoxy's views on the matter.

If it matters, the Orthodox have the concept of sacraments (which we usually call mysteries) but tend to avoid giving an exact number. If marriage is a sacrament, so is tonsure of a monk, for example. Funeral rites and other services might be considered sacraments. Orthodoxy's established practice of refusing to give exact numbers or exact definitions in these matters unifies Catholicism and Protestantism by annoying both equally.

[ursusarctos]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

Orthodoxy's established practice of refusing to give exact numbers or exact definitions in these matters unifies Catholicism and Protestantism by annoying both equally.

Now I wonder how an Orthodox Christian would describe the difference between Protestant and Catholic criteria for salvation?

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

Orthodoxy's established practice of refusing to give exact numbers or exact definitions in these matters unifies Catholicism and Protestantism by annoying both equally.

Yep! And other things, too...I've known non-Orthodox folks who were researching Orthodox who were extraordinarily frustrated by Orthodoxy's lack of something "official" like the Vatican-approved Catholic Catechism. They could be pointed to stuff, but nothing "official."

[mammal_mama]

And then there are Christian Universalists, who believe that Jesus's work of salvation is already "finished," and that everyone will ultimately be reconciled to God, regardless of their beliefs.

I believe in Universal Salvation, and I feel most at home in the Episcopal (Anglican) Church.

http://www.tentmaker.org/

[mammal_mama]

I forgot to subscribe, so I'm doing it now.

I see my church as both Catholic and Protestant.

[ursusarctos]

mammal mama, thank you for the link. It looks interesting and I will go back to it when I have more time.

Interestingly, I think the Finnish Evangelical Lutheran Church (the state church of Finland) also teaches universal salvation... somehow. Not sure though.

So basically, Universalists believe that Jesus' redemption applies to everybody regardless of religion, right?

Also, curious, what do you mean exactly by considering yourself both Protestant and Catholic? I had thought those were pretty mutually exclusive.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by ursusarctos

mammal mama, thank you for the link. It looks interesting and I will go back to it when I have more time.

You're welcome.

Interestingly, I think the Finnish Evangelical Lutheran Church (the state church of Finland) also teaches universal salvation... somehow. Not sure though.

I don't know of any churches, besides the Unitarian Universalist denomination, that specifically teach universal salvation, though it's possible that some others do.

Though our local UU church sounds intriguing, we are still wanting to worship from a Christian tradition.

And I like the way that the Episcopal church pursues unity of worship, while allowing for diversity of belief. I feel this is a church that allows people ROOM to believe in universal salvation, or whatever they individually believe.

Madeleine L'Engle was a longtime member of the Episcopal Church (and writer in residence at her local church), and she also believed in universal salvation. Loving her books, and knowing her love for the Episcopal Church, was one of the big draws for me, to look into it and try it out. And I'm very glad I did!

So basically, Universalists believe that Jesus' redemption applies to everybody regardless of religion, right?

Right.

Also, curious, what do you mean exactly by considering yourself both Protestant and Catholic? I had thought those were pretty mutually exclusive.

That's how many Episcopalians see their church -- as a middle way between Protestantism and Catholicism. They've retained much of the Catholic form of worship (though some congregations may be less formal) -- but there is a great openness toward a variety of different beliefs.

As for me, I greatly enjoy praying parts of the Catholic Rosary. Once I started praying to/meditating on Mary, I knew I'd never again be willing to join with a church that saw it as idolatry to pray to Mary. It really makes sense to me, now, that Catholics see Jesus as the way to the Father, and Mary as the way to Jesus.

Mary was God's vehicle for becoming human -- and Mary's DNA is now part of God's DNA. I agree with how G. Scott Sparrow puts it in his book, Blessed Among Women: Encounters With Mary and Her Message, when he says Mary is the feminine face of God.

While the Episcopal Church doesn't seem to actively-promote praying to Mary, from what I can gather, there's also not active teaching AGAINST it. And the congregation that I'm part of has a covenantal relationship with the Catholic congregation that's about a block away. In my new church, I sense a very strong spirit of inclusion, not exclusion.

Also, Episcopalians are not "Sola Scriptura" -- they go by Scripture, Tradition, and Reason (I think they call it a 3-legged stool), and if I'm remembering right, doesn't the Roman Catholic Church also go by those three things (I could be wrong)?

[z2akids]

Catholics do not pray TO Mary. Jesus had a great deal of love and respect for His mother. His first miracle (the wedding at Canna) was performed at her request and much much more. Catholics believe that Jesus listens to His mother and that she also cares for us. As a result, we ask her to intercede for us. We ask for her prayers.

Most Protestant faiths do not believe in transsubstantiation. Catholics believe that a miracle takes place during the Liturgy of the Eucharist in every Mass. We believe that the bread and wine offered at Mass are changed into the actual Body and Blood of our Lord. They are not simply symbolic.

[Bluegoat]

I think the issue of works vs faith is in some ways a red herring when speaking about differences between Catholics and Protestants. If you start to really dig into what is meant on both sides, it tends to come down to much the same thing, (until you get to talking about certain aspects of indulgences and the theology that goes with them.) But overall, I think the difference is more one of language and emphasis, and that it is strongly influenced by the historical situation.

Both Catholics and Protestants think that faith and works go together, and both think that faith has a kind of logical priority. Works must come out of faith or they are of no account, even for Catholics. And Faith must lead to works to be "real" or "saving faith" even according to Protestants. And if you really push the theology, faith and works begin to collapse together to the point that they become indistinguishable - works are an act of faith, and faith is in some sense a work.

Now, I personally would say the most complete and clear thing one could say, if that is the case, is that both faith and works are required for salvation, if we are conscientious about how we define both. But different ages have different characters. In some times, people seem to get the idea that only the "spiritual" is really important; in other times, that only action is really important. The inclination is to give short shrift to the other quality, and that is not accurate to Christianity.

I think that at the time of the Reformation, the visible Church was putting undue emphasis on various forms of works and neglecting faith in many ways, (not that it wasn't present at all) and in fact it had been quite a problem for some time. Because real correction within the hierarchy was not happening, it caused the political body of the Church to fracture, including even along the lines of nations which were caught up in the works of the Church.

And the bodies that tried to redress the imbalance like the Lutherans, began to develop a new language around works and faith. This can sometimes obscure that really, the two positions are not that radically different at heart. And of course the "faith alone" language can also become a problem, for example it can easily lead into a mistrust or undervaluation of the material world, which is one of God's "works".

Where the Catholic and Protestants start to really differ is when you begin to get into ideas like being able to apply the "extra" good works of people like the saints to souls in Purgatory in order to reduce their time there.

[lolar2]

Oh yeah, transubstantiation is a biggie, difference-wise.

[Hopesmommy]

How does one reconcile the sacrament of marriage with the celibacy, such as in the case of Paul or the priests, etc.?

[lolar2]

Some of the sacraments are optional. Ordination and marriage are in that category.

[Hopesmommy]

Originally Posted by lolar2

Some of the sacraments are optional. Ordination and marriage are in that category.

Okay, that makes sense.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by lolar2

Oh yeah, transubstantiation is a biggie, difference-wise.

Do you think? It's really only a sub-category of the doctrine of the Real Presence, which a number of Protestant groups, and the Orthodox, adhere to.