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CPS says we can't homeschool. FINAL UPDATE (for real) POST #189 - Page 4

post #61 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by skueppers View Post
Well, bearing in mind that I do not suffer from anxiety disorder, what I would do is to be ANGRY, not afraid. And I would hire a lawyer to help me protect my family and our rights.

The only people I know who ever had trouble with CPS did hire a lawyer, and it was amazingly helpful. It ought not to be necessary, but it seems to me that CPS often completely oversteps their authority. With the best of intentions, I'm sure, but it's still wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunshineJ View Post
The perspective that you're looking at it from is this: If we play nice and do what they say, they'll let us live in relative peace with a few minor changes. Now there is something to be said for that, yes, but I think what the rest of us are seeing is this: If you play nice with them, don't fight, and let them have their stipulations you will be dealing with them in your lives forever. If there are additional requirements put on you and your family, they will be required to continue to check in with your family on a regular basis. Every time your DD is sick, they can question it. Was she really sick? Can you prove it? Or was it your anxiety causing you to over-react? What happens if she gives every indication of being ill but you call it wrong? What if you, fearing just that case, delay taking her in a couple days and she gets worse and they use that against you? If you move you may be required to tell them so they can make arrangements with the new county you're in. If you don't tell them then you could be in contempt of their actions once you're found. With all that extra access to you and your family they could choose to open a new case on a whim if they wanted to. It just goes on and on. They've already established that they are not taking your children away thank goodness. Now you're fighting for your right to parent your children on your own. This isn't about not being walked all over imo, but about getting them out of your lives so you can move past the fear of their involvement and get back to the business of living normally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catherine12 View Post
Getting a lawyer isn't rocking the boat. It's standard procedure anytime you have to appear in court.

I'd be scared in your place too - I don't know what to tell you, except to believe in yourself and your family and not give up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maybemom05 View Post
Call HSLDA and speak with them over the phone. With the information you've given us, I have a feeling that odds are better than even that they can make this whole thing go away. Or at a minimum, they can help level the playing field.
ALL OF THAT



Quote:
Originally Posted by StormySar View Post
What if you enrolled your children in a virtual academy, it seems that most states have a free one, and CPS might be satisfied that you have them enrolled in a school and there would be solid proof of what you have been doing with them? It may not be ideal because you won't have much freedom in curriculum but it might be better than sending them out to a school if they'll allow it.
Again... their issue isn't the kids education, it's mom being able to foster separation with her kids and that can only be accomplished (in their eyes) by them leaving the house. So online school (or any evidence of education) won't suffice.
post #62 of 202
Just had to pop in and offer hugs s and encouragement to speak with and get a lawyer for any dealings you have to have with a court. They will be your adovcate and ensure your rights are not trampled.
post #63 of 202
What I was thinking when I mentioned the online (public!) school is that it would satisfy the letter of the rule while violating the spirit - if they order her to enroll them in public school, then she agrees and does it and has evidence of having done it, it just might satisfy the judge. Also, since they have conceded that her daughter does, in fact, have significant medical problems, the arguement could be made for the flexible schooling arrangement to allow for doctor vistits, etc. Aside from that, since they said they might make a "softer" offer, something like this could be a reasonable compromise in their eyes.

I, personally, would not agree to anything. But I can understand if this mother doesn't feel up to fighting everything. If she doesn't, a virtual schooling environment could be a compromise they are willing to accept.
post #64 of 202
Where are the children's Guardian Ad Litem? (They could be called something else in your state.) They are the court appoint advocates for your kids. As parties to the case, they - and you if you don't have representation - have a right to see all reports filed with the court before you go to court. The social worker will have to file her report with the court before your court date. (It allows the judge to read the report before the court appearance.) When s/he files it, they have to send you copies. At least you'll know what their recommendation is. If you don't agree with it, hire a lawyer.

As for what would I do? I would file with the court - NOW - a request for a court appointed lawyer. You should qualify with the cut in your DH's hours. They are there to guarantee your rights are being protected. Whether or not you have a lawyer, you have a right to see their recommendation before you walk into court. If they won't give you a copy, ask the judge for a continuance based on not seeing the report before hand. You have rights. I understand your concern about their power to take your children. And I understand how hard anxiety issues are. But please don't let those things back you into a corner. People hire lawyers/stand up for themselves all the time. It's nothing personal and it doesn't make the system harder than it has to be.
post #65 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by eclipse View Post
What I was thinking when I mentioned the online (public!) school is that it would satisfy the letter of the rule while violating the spirit - if they order her to enroll them in public school, then she agrees and does it and has evidence of having done it, it just might satisfy the judge.
Having been involved with CPS for a while, I highly suspect that this would look like a manipulative tactic on the parents part to keep their kids home and only underscore that mom has a problem separating. But that's JMHO... They want the kids physically away from their mother to evidence that mom is able to let them go.


Quote:
Originally Posted by eclipse View Post
Also, since they have conceded that her daughter does, in fact, have significant medical problems, the arguement could be made for the flexible schooling arrangement to allow for doctor vistits, etc. Aside from that, since they said they might make a "softer" offer, something like this could be a reasonable compromise in their eyes.
This is why I came back to this thread, actually. My son has an immune deficiency. He COULD actually attend school although he runs the risk of being out sick constantly. BUT, by law (Federal) I could have a doctor write a note that says he is unable to handle a classroom environment and set up a 504 or IEP (504 doesn't get the district any SpEd funds where an IEP does) for him to receive "home instruction". They would have to send a teacher to my house every day for 1-2 hours. Both are legal documents that require the district to act in a specific way

It's absolutely NOT optimal, but mom could keep the kids home and have a public person looking in on the kids with a very legitimate medical reason for keeping them both home (since the sibling could contract something in school and bring it home to infect the one that's ill). They want an extra set of eyes on the kids--they'll have it. They won't get the "separation" they want, but fostering healthy separation is not neglect or abuse and they'd have a set of eyes in the home.

If you're not going to fight it, that would be my ONLY compromise. But I truly think you should fight it. CPS banks on people not wanting to rock the boat; but their idea to blindside you in court with the plan vs. discussing and agreeing beforehand TRULY worries me. It's just not the way they do things when they are truly trying to help keep a family together.
post #66 of 202
I have had major issues with postpartum anxiety... so I know the big fear that you are feeling right now OP.

With that said, I think that most mothers, whether or not they suffer from anxiety, would take a child in to the doctor or ER if that child suffers from a medical issue and they felt that the child *might* need to be seen. It is far better to have the child checked out than to ignore something that could be a potential problem.

I know my middle daughter has had some allergic reactions in the past, she breaks out in a rash and I immediately take her in to the ped's office. Yes, it might just be a rug burn up her leg from sliding down the carpeted stairs (lol. true story) but I'd "rather be safe than sorry".

Anyhow, just wanted to post and offer some moral support to you Mama. It sounds like a very stressful situation. Please, as others have said also, take care of yourself and see your therapist more often if needed. And I agree to talk to a lawyer. I would not walk into a courtroom without legal representation for any reason, but especially when it concerns CPS.

GL,
Beth
post #67 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by crunchy_mommy View Post
Unnecessary medical treatment... um, what mom HASN'T dragged her kid to the doctors or the ER unnecessarily? What mom HASN'T panicked over a "rash" that turned out to be red ink, or rushed to the ER after a 1-foot fall? I don't understand how they can say this is damaging to your kids, even if it's a little more frequent or extreme in your case.

I hope that a lawyer could bring up points such as this & convince CPS to back off.
This. There's nothing criminal about taking your child to the ER and finding out that they're not "seriously" ill; If there was, the overwhelming majority of parents I know would have had CPS butting into their lives long ago. Given that your daughter actually does have serious health issues, it's ridiculous to think that anyone could fault you for being hypervigilant or even a bit paranoid. The really obnoxious part is that if you went the other direction and *didn't* take your daughter to the ER and it turned out that she actually was ill and in need of medical attention, you'd be in the same situation. This sounds like an excuse for someone to interfere with your lives, and an intolerable one at that. I'm with the others-- you need a lawyer, and I hope you find one soon.
post #68 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by heatherdeg View Post
Having been involved with CPS for a while, I highly suspect that this would look like a manipulative tactic on the parents part to keep their kids home and only underscore that mom has a problem separating. But that's JMHO... They want the kids physically away from their mother to evidence that mom is able to let them go.




This is why I came back to this thread, actually. My son has an immune deficiency. He COULD actually attend school although he runs the risk of being out sick constantly. BUT, by law (Federal) I could have a doctor write a note that says he is unable to handle a classroom environment and set up a 504 or IEP (504 doesn't get the district any SpEd funds where an IEP does) for him to receive "home instruction". They would have to send a teacher to my house every day for 1-2 hours. Both are legal documents that require the district to act in a specific way

It's absolutely NOT optimal, but mom could keep the kids home and have a public person looking in on the kids with a very legitimate medical reason for keeping them both home (since the sibling could contract something in school and bring it home to infect the one that's ill). They want an extra set of eyes on the kids--they'll have it. They won't get the "separation" they want, but fostering healthy separation is not neglect or abuse and they'd have a set of eyes in the home.

If you're not going to fight it, that would be my ONLY compromise. But I truly think you should fight it. CPS banks on people not wanting to rock the boat; but their idea to blindside you in court with the plan vs. discussing and agreeing beforehand TRULY worries me. It's just not the way they do things when they are truly trying to help keep a family together.
I believe that to get an IEP or 504 the child needs to have documentation from the school that his disability is interfering with his ability to do his school work. Just having a doctor give your child a diagnosis, no matter what the diagnosis is, isn't enough if your child hasn't shown that they are not meeting the grade level standards. In order to do this the kids would have to be at school for quite a while, it can take a long time to get proper documentation and teachers often assess whether the child is meeting the learning standard rather than whether they are completing the busywork that goes with the standard so it isn't guaranteed that the child would even meet the requirements for extra support even if they missed a lot of school.

OP: I hope everything goes well for you. They should have dropped everything when they found that your daughter actually is truly sick. It is understandable that you would be super worried because you have a very sick child and you don't want her to get sicker. Being under a lot of stress because you have a very sick child is something that sounds common for having very sick kids. I can't believe your case workers have gotten away with drawing this out. I think you should try for a lawyer of some kind to back you up. They are invading your life for no reason and they should get in trouble for it.
post #69 of 202
I'm sorry you're going through this! Are there any updates? Has CPS backed off and closed your case, or are they pushing forward to keep you from homeschooling?
post #70 of 202
I'm so sorry you are going through this. It's so scary to think that we, as mothers, could get in serious trouble for trying to take care of our children when they are ill (hospital visits) and by homeschooling.

I hope you get a great lawyer and that you kick butt!
post #71 of 202
Thread Starter 
I have no real substantial update. We have heard nothing from CPS since I wrote the first post. I did receive today a copy of the full psychological evaluation today from my therapist. DH and I spent a long time reading it (all 30 pages) and there were no real surprises, but several frustrations and several things we think were just flat wrong. The pysch eval had pages upon pages about vaccinations and my supposed phobia about them. Even speculating that I wanted to homeschool so my children don't need to be vaccinated. This evaluator is just coming from such a different place than I am. Most of my friends IRL don't vaccinate but the only reason she can imagine that I wouldn't is anxiety related.

This case is such a confusing mess of a ball of the evaluator's biased views, my anxiety disorder, and my DD's actual illness.

We really would like to get a lawyer but just can't afford it. We also are waiting to see what CPS' recommendations are going to finally be about homeschooling before getting HSLDA involved. We did talk with them though. At this point though, we are going to get our ducks in a row about what we think needs to come up in court and hope for a good public defender.

Also leaving is not really an option for us. We are farmers and rooted where we are. I would like to sometimes - especially because so much of this just seems wrong and unfair. I would put my parenting skills, my self awareness, my plain happiness with life up against any of theirs. Yes, I've made mistakes but at least I realized them and worked on them before CPS even got involved. Anyway. Obviously some of the fear and hurt has given way to anger. Thanks for all the advice.
post #72 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by One_Girl View Post
I believe that to get an IEP or 504 the child needs to have documentation from the school that his disability is interfering with his ability to do his school work. Just having a doctor give your child a diagnosis, no matter what the diagnosis is, isn't enough if your child hasn't shown that they are not meeting the grade level standards. In order to do this the kids would have to be at school for quite a while, it can take a long time to get proper documentation and teachers often assess whether the child is meeting the learning standard rather than whether they are completing the busywork that goes with the standard so it isn't guaranteed that the child would even meet the requirements for extra support even if they missed a lot of school.
Umm... no. If the doctor says that the child has a medical condition that interferes with their ability to be in a classroom, the district has no say in that. Case in point: my son has an immune deficiency and being in a classroom would be a problem because if/when he gets sick, he will miss a few weeks worth of school.

Either way--IEP or 504 does not require that the child not be meeting grade level standards. It means that they have a condition that impacts their ability to function in the classroom in a way that requires accommodations. Period.

There is absolutely ZERO requirement for them to be in school. In fact, several states spell out explicitly their protection of special ed services (dictated by a 504 or IEP) for homeschoolers. In states like mine that do not spell it out, we can still GET them although it requires more work.

BTW, it's not teachers that assess the kids for issues, it's specialists. On the team of specialists there may BE a regular or special ed teacher administering an evaluation, but depending on what the issue is--there's not always a teacher assessment.

And this is Federal law... not state.
post #73 of 202
Wow, how aggravating. Just about every parent makes decisions for their kids based on phobias. I'm scared of guns, so I don't have one. Since when did having phobias take away your right to make parenting decisions for your kids. Scared of heights? Spiders? etc. I really hope you get a lawyer and get them out of your life. If you have the right, as a parent, to decide not to vaccinate your children, it shouldn't matter what the reason is that you use that right. Since when did you have to be a perfectly stable person in order to make parenting decisions for your kids. Religious fundamentalists have all kids of strange reasons to homeschool and they still have that right. White supremacists can homeschool based on their not wanting kids around minority kids.

Can you write a letter to the judge? I'd work on getting a religious exemption in place for the vaccines also. Actually, I'd probably get REAL religious about right now.

Are you involved in any homeschool groups? People who can vouch for the fact that you're not just hiding out scared at home all the time? Are there certain homeschool laws that you've been abiding by that you can show? You have the right to not vaccinate and you have the right to homeschool, so what does it matter the reasons that you do those things?
post #74 of 202
Momma:

If you don't fight, they'll be in your business for as long as they want to be, telling you what you can and can't do. For your own good of course.

They are NOT going to say 'Oh, look she's cooperating so we'll leave her alone.' No. They'll come in and say "oh look she agrees we're right so now she'll do xyz when we tell her to.' Give an inch, they may take a mile.

You need a lawyer. Even if you lose your farm to a second mortgage. You need to protect your family. This sounds like serious stuff from what you've posted. I don't think you can afford not to hire a lawyer.

I am so sorry you are dealing with this. Don't cooperate yourself into a corner here. Get some legal help asap.


V
post #75 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestMama42 View Post
. The pysch eval had pages upon pages about vaccinations and my supposed phobia about them. Even speculating that I wanted to homeschool so my children don't need to be vaccinated. This evaluator is just coming from such a different place than I am. Most of my friends IRL don't vaccinate but the only reason she can imagine that I wouldn't is anxiety related.
.
First and foremost Second, I don't understand how your anxiety over vaccinations has ANYTHING to do with your ability to parent. I'm not sure what state you're in but I would possibly contact La Leche league and see if there is someone within that organization that could possibly give you some resources? ( I say La Leche because they tend to be very AP friendly and I would assume they may even be able to direct you to someone who could assist you?).
If I were you, I would be aligning myself with professionals who are AP/NFL friendly. See if you can find someone to at least support your parenting decisions.
Site studies, medical journals, etc. Show them that you have done thorough research on your child's diagnosis and on your own diagnosis (anxiety). Show them that you have found ways to "cope" with your challenges. Start seeing a naturalist or a Chiropractor....or someone who can document your efforts.
Good luck, mama and please keep us posted. We are all here for you
post #76 of 202
I was writing my last post as the OP was writing her update...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mykdsmomy View Post
First and foremost Second, I don't understand how your anxiety over vaccinations has ANYTHING to do with your ability to parent. I'm not sure what state you're in but I would possibly contact La Leche league and see if there is someone within that organization that could possibly give you some resources? ( I say La Leche because they tend to be very AP friendly and I would assume they may even be able to direct you to someone who could assist you?).
If I were you, I would be aligning myself with professionals who are AP/NFL friendly. See if you can find someone to at least support your parenting decisions.
Site studies, medical journals, etc. Show them that you have done thorough research on your child's diagnosis and on your own diagnosis (anxiety). Show them that you have found ways to "cope" with your challenges. Start seeing a naturalist or a Chiropractor....or someone who can document your efforts.
Good luck, mama and please keep us posted. We are all here for you




You need to focus on the reality that nothing you're doing is abuse or neglect... it's "child's best interest" and that is YOUR prerogative as a parent--not the state's prerogative. This is VERY MUCH A KEY of this case. I cannot find a "Children's Bill of Rights" for KY (which I think is where you are) so I suspect that KY CPS is supposed to be dealing with neglect and abuse.

Please call HSLDA before this goes to court. Seriously. Don't pray for a good public defender--MAKE. IT. GO. AWAY. The pp is right: this is NOT going to stop.
post #77 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet2 View Post
You need a lawyer. Even if you lose your farm to a second mortgage. You need to protect your family. This sounds like serious stuff from what you've posted. I don't think you can afford not to hire a lawyer.


This is not the time to be worrying whether you can afford a lawyer. This is the time to ask your family/friends for a loan. This is the time to sell a car to pay the lawyer bills. This is the time to remortgage your home... I am scared for you to go into this without proper legal representation.
post #78 of 202
I might have missed this, but they have public defenders for people that can not afford lawyers on their own. You have to meet income criteria - which I don't know anything about in your area. But if the court agrees you can't pay, you get a lawyer for free. Have you looked into this?

Again, what does the Guardian Ad Litem for your children say about what CPS is saying? They are their to advocate for your children's best interest.
post #79 of 202
Memorise this http://www.know-vaccines.org/exemptionFAQ.html whenever asked about vaccines, you do not vaccinate due to your religion. Memorize the reasons listed in the link. The government can NOT fight with you about this, nobody will want to even further their discussion with you about your choices not to vaccinate as long as you have this stuff under your belt. I hate telling somebody to lie *if it's a lie to you* but to protect kids, absolutly, I would do it in a heartbeat. There HAS to be somebody who has AP principles who happens to be a lawyer or attorney. Ask around!!! Go to your local HFS and ask them, put up a sign, something. You absolutly need a lawyer of some kind. When it comes down to court, the judge is going to listen to the lawyers. You need a good one. My question since this is a fairly large forum, are there any lawyers on here that would help the OP out? Or does anyone know of anybody who would?
post #80 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kailey's mom;15093850 [B
My question since this is a fairly large forum, are there any lawyers on here that would help the OP out? Or does anyone know of anybody who would?[/B]
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