Help me understand this type of statement - Page 2

[mamabadger]

I appreciate Smokering's point. I try to avoid bringing up my religious beliefs unless asked, but sometimes it does make things simpler. Saying "that is against my religion" or "as a X-ist I can't do/eat/have/watch/participate in that" can bypass a lot of explanation and debate. This sometimes even applies to ethical rules "everybody" follows, because as Cappucinosmom says, there are big differences in the way people apply these rules. Where there is an ethical disagreement, it seems to me less judgmental to say "I cannot do X because of my religion" than "I cannot do X because I am a moral person."

[Smokering]

Related to that, I think it does other Christians a kindness to be specific in those circumstances. For instance, I wouldn't say "I'm a Christian, I don't believe in free will": I am a Christian and that is why I don't believe in free will, but I realise most other Christians do, and wouldn't want to imply otherwise - it would just confuse people. So in that circumstance, I'd say "I'm a Calvinist, I don't believe in free will". Similarly, I'd be happy if people said specific things like "I'm quiverfull, so I don't believe in birth control" or "We don't eat fish on Fridays because we're Catholic", to avoid confusing people into thinking that all Christians are those things. It's just tactful, and heaven knows who-believes-what is confusing enough to begin with.

[Liquesce]

I didn't have the impression the OP was talking about "sorry, I'm Jewish, I don't eat pork" kind of stuff, though, so much as "I'm ________ and therefore I just can't cannibalize sweet little grandmothers" kind of remarks. KWIM? Pairing belief in a particular religion with adherence to very nearly universal moral codes.

[hopefulfaith]

Originally Posted by Liquesce

I didn't have the impression the OP was talking about "sorry, I'm Jewish, I don't eat pork" kind of stuff, though, so much as "I'm ________ and therefore I just can't cannibalize sweet little grandmothers" kind of remarks. KWIM? Pairing belief in a particular religion with adherence to very nearly universal moral codes.

Well said, Liquesce! It's that usually what the speaker is referring to is that nearly universal moral code is what irks me. It doesn't bother me if someone is referring to a very specific act/belief which reflects their beliefs that I may or may not be aware of (i.e., the poster who referenced Asatru: I don't know much about this, and that remark would be very edifying for me) -- it's that most people seem to use it in a "Well, I'm a Christian so I don't believe in lying." or some other inane phrase which is true of just about any other religion one might care to name.

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by Smokering

Related to that, I think it does other Christians a kindness to be specific in those circumstances. For instance, I wouldn't say "I'm a Christian, I don't believe in free will": I am a Christian and that is why I don't believe in free will, but I realise most other Christians do, and wouldn't want to imply otherwise - it would just confuse people. So in that circumstance, I'd say "I'm a Calvinist, I don't believe in free will". Similarly, I'd be happy if people said specific things like "I'm quiverfull, so I don't believe in birth control" or "We don't eat fish on Fridays because we're Catholic", to avoid confusing people into thinking that all Christians are those things. It's just tactful, and heaven knows who-believes-what is confusing enough to begin with.

Yeah, I end up saying these sort of very specific things often, mostly at work - I'm the only Orthodox Christian in the office, and while a few folks have Greek Orthodox friends, I'm a convert and not Greek, which just throws folks for a loop!

It usually comes up with regards to Orthodox fasting practices (we essentially go vegan for *all* of Great Lent) in comparison with the many Catholics (Ash Wednesday, Good Friday, and every Friday in Lent only) in the office. For example, my office always has a Mardi Gras potluck on the day before Ash Wednesday. Two years ago, Orthodox Pascha and Western Easter were on the same day. But the Orthodox begin Great Lent on Monday and Ash Wednesday is not part of our tradition. I was eating something vegan, and got asked by each person as they got in line for food, why wasn't I eating the good meat and such. So I had to explain about 30 times that my Great Lent has begun the day before! It was kinda funny, but learning experience for the coworkers. They also wonder why I don't partake in all the goodies in December - because we have a 40 day fast before Christmas.

I got a few questions from coworkers who were confused why I wasn't going to this year's employee appreciation party, when I've gone in the past. I told them because it was during Lent (Pascha is so early this year, the party hasn't been in Lent before). They didn't take it further than that. We've got a woman who is a Jehovah's Witness who doesn't attend the party, either, so I'm not the only one declining.

[mamabadger]

Originally Posted by Smokering

Related to that, I think it does other Christians a kindness to be specific in those circumstances. For instance, I wouldn't say "I'm a Christian, I don't believe in free will": I am a Christian and that is why I don't believe in free will, but I realise most other Christians do, and wouldn't want to imply otherwise - it would just confuse people. So in that circumstance, I'd say "I'm a Calvinist, I don't believe in free will". Similarly, I'd be happy if people said specific things like "I'm quiverfull, so I don't believe in birth control" or "We don't eat fish on Fridays because we're Catholic", to avoid confusing people into thinking that all Christians are those things. It's just tactful, and heaven knows who-believes-what is confusing enough to begin with.

I absolutely agree, and this is one of the reasons I wish people would stop using the general term "Christian" to refer to their particular denomination - at least when talking to people outside their congregation.

[kcstar]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

I absolutely agree, and this is one of the reasons I wish people would stop using the general term "Christian" to refer to their particular denomination - at least when talking to people outside their congregation.

Hear, hear!

In college band during playoffs, we once invited the other school's band to go out with us after the game. The reply we got back was something like "We can't, some of us are Christian" (referring to, they belonged to a denomination that doesn't drink alcohol). I also considered this a non sequitor for at least two reasons. First of all, most members of the band I was in were Christian of one sort or another. Secondly, going out doesn't REQUIRE drinking. Even though I enjoy the occasional alcoholic drink, I'm more likely to teetotal.

[lilyka]

to some extent it sounds like a PR campeign for their faith. Especially in the example you gave. " we are ________. we are just cool like that. we don't steal. thats just how we ___________ roll....."

In some cases though it could be said as a way to let the other person of the hook. as in "as a __________ I cannot do that but my rules are not your rules" for example I cannot go out drinking on a Friday night. But I really truely do not care what people outside of my church do on a friday night. beyond that, by all means if you are not a part of my faith, go have one for you and one for me. I am not saying it is sinful for anyone to drink any day of the week but because of the way my church does things we fast from alcohol (and other things) every Friday. Its not about being morally superior but I also don't want people to think I am just turning them down.

[bluebirdiemama]

Originally Posted by mariekitt24

Well, Im a Christian, so Im trying to think of myself saying it. (its not something I have ever said so Im going to pretend)
Like if I said "As a Christian, I will never cheat on my husband." That just means, because of what I believe, it will keep me from doing this thing that I otherwise might be more tempted or not feel badly about doing. Im not going to cheat, because it says in the Bible not to. Not to say thats the ONLY reason I wouldn't cheat, but in my mind, it may be the most important reason.

thats not to say that a non-Christian is going to cheat, or that they cant have their own moral reasons or whatever, and its not that Im saying Im better because Im a Christian, its just me stating what's backing up my decision not to do something.

This is really close to what I was going to say, along with that Christians, because it is a command as well as something we know is right to do, are to give glory to God. So, it might not be the best way of doing it, but maybe they are trying to say "don't look at me and think that I am doing something great. If I didn't love God I would have a harder time turning it in. God is the reason I know to and am able to do what is right."

[Teenytoona]

Op here!

Originally Posted by Liquesce

I didn't have the impression the OP was talking about "sorry, I'm Jewish, I don't eat pork" kind of stuff, though, so much as "I'm ________ and therefore I just can't cannibalize sweet little grandmothers" kind of remarks. KWIM? Pairing belief in a particular religion with adherence to very nearly universal moral codes.

This is true about my opening statement. I'm enjoying how the conversation has veered though. It's given me a perspective as to why someone might say such a thing even with the VNUMC (very nearly universal moral code).

Originally Posted by hopefulfaith

Well said, Liquesce! It's that usually what the speaker is referring to is that nearly universal moral code is what irks me. It doesn't bother me if someone is referring to a very specific act/belief which reflects their beliefs that I may or may not be aware of (i.e., the poster who referenced Asatru: I don't know much about this, and that remark would be very edifying for me) -- it's that most people seem to use it in a "Well, I'm a Christian so I don't believe in lying." or some other inane phrase which is true of just about any other religion one might care to name.

yes for me too, my first thought in answer to someone who says "I'm Jewish, so I don't eat pork" is "ok that's cool." My first thought in repsonse to "I'm Blankist so I just can't cannibalize sweet little grandmothers" is often a snap judgement about how said person is either tryign to advertise or play higher up do to their involvement in Blankness.

But hey, carry on with this conversation, it's really been enlightening.

[EFmom]

I think that at the end of the day, it's wishful thinking on the speaker's part. There is ample evidence that people with religion behave no differently than people who are not religious.

[Smokering]

I'm not sure that's true. If you mean religious people don't exhibit greater overall morality than non-religious, then possibly (although I'd have to wonder what standard of morality you'd use as a yardstick); but there's plenty of evidence that religious people behave differently. I'm sure it could be determined that a higher proportion of Southern Baptists are teetotallers than the rest of the population; that a lower percentage of orthodox Catholics get divorced; perhaps that a higher percentage of Christian doctors refuse to perform abortions; that a much higher percentage of Buddhists are vegetarians; and so on. These are behavioral things.

So yeah, I agree that "I returned your cat because I'm a Presbyterian" is pretty random; but "We're very commited to our marriage, we're Catholic" makes a bit more sense (although it could still be construed as offensive, and there are better ways of putting it than I just did!).

[EFmom]

Originally Posted by Smokering

I'm not sure that's true. If you mean religious people don't exhibit greater overall morality than non-religious, then possibly (although I'd have to wonder what standard of morality you'd use as a yardstick); but there's plenty of evidence that religious people behave differently. I'm sure it could be determined that a higher proportion of Southern Baptists are teetotallers than the rest of the population; that a lower percentage of orthodox Catholics get divorced; perhaps that a higher percentage of Christian doctors refuse to perform abortions; that a much higher percentage of Buddhists are vegetarians; and so on. These are behavioral things.

So yeah, I agree that "I returned your cat because I'm a Presbyterian" is pretty random; but "We're very commited to our marriage, we're Catholic" makes a bit more sense (although it could still be construed as offensive, and there are better ways of putting it than I just did!).

For your own example, divorce rate of Catholics is just about identical to that of atheists, and is actually probably higher when you figure in all the Catholics who have had anullments and deny being divorced.

For an interesting overview of how religion affects choices typically seen as moral, see "Losing My Religion" by Bill Lobdell. The answer is basically not at all.

[mntnmom]

I have always found the statement to be rather offensive. If a person chooses not to do (OR do) something, I assume they have their reasons. I don't say "as an agnostic who values my family and believes monogamy is good for my marriage, I would never cheat". If a person's faith informs their choices, I feel that is a personal matter. Unless they are explaining a difference, like: as a Muslim woman I cover my hair", or "as a Quaker I don't make promises or swear oaths". The need to broadcast one's faith often comes off as arrogant and self-edifying, whether it is intended that way or not. *Most* people believe that lying, stealing etc. are wrong. I see no reason to connect one's religion with basic morality most people agree with, unless you are TRYING to make your religion, or yourself seem superior.

[Bluegoat]

If I said this it would probably be a kind of short-hand for my reasoning in a certain instance. Even if a moral precept was widely believed, the reasons for the belief might be different. To use a pps example of capital punishment, I can imagine that a Christian, Hindu, Bhuddist and an atheist might all have different reasons to oppose (or support) it. A person who doesn't believe in an eternal soul might see it differently than someone who did, and someone who believed in reincarnation might have a different perspective than someone who didn't. I think even murder can be understood quite differently depending on your worldview.

[Shami]

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