When do you move on?

[HeatherB]

My 7yo DS has been in a chess club for almost a year, exactly (he'll be 8 next month). He has been the youngest (or one of the youngest), and didn't know any of the kids before joining. He also had virtually no chess experience prior to the club. The club is put together by a family from our local homeschool group, and is free. (The kids have the option of buying pizza weekly, but that's it.)

DS hasn't been in several weeks because the last time I picked him up, he was very upset while we drove home. He told me that the other kids laughed at him, wouldn't play with him, etc. I tried to encourage him, give him alternative perspectives (maybe they weren't laughing at him, or maybe they weren't laughing at him, etc.), but the more details he gave, the more clear it was that they were avoiding him intentionally, at the least. He's not the best player, by far; in fact, they're ranked, and he's one of the two lowest in that group. He's also a quirky, though very well-intentioned and lovable kid. He has really admired some of these kids (particularly the boy who lives there, who's been playing for 5+ years and whose dad is ranked super highly), been excited to see them at other functions, etc. But, they have, for somewhat obvious/reasonable reasons, never been all that interested in him. (Reasons being, they're older, he's not showing a lot of promise in chess, they don't have much time with him, he's the quirky kid who ends up preferring to play with the 3yo than play chess, etc.)

Tonight, he was looking at a Think Geek catalog and the Super Mario chess set in it. He told me he thought maybe the kids at chess would think better of him if he brought that set, since everyone else has a plain chess set. (FTR, DS has brought his beautiful wooden chess set that he got for his birthday last year, and everyone really liked it. I guess it probably gave him some extra "points" with them, though that was never its intention. We didn't have a set, and DH picked out this very cool, classic set for him.)

So we've been talking, hugging, and he's been crying about how hard it is to go to chess club. He has said repeatedly that he doesn't feel "special" there, and I'm not quite sure what that translates into. Loved? Respected? Valued? I don't know that he means "special" as in "different/unique." He says the kids just don't seem to like him, and that he then has a hard time liking them since they won't even play with him.

We talked quite a bit about these issues, including his ranking, the one kids who's similarly ranked that he could/should play with, the teaching group he's in, his teacher, etc. He says his teacher likes him (I'm not entirely sure what he thinks of him, from prior issues, but it's hard to tell with someone I really don't know), but that no one else does.

So, to the topic... When do you move on? I don't want him to quit things because they're hard. I want him to persevere and get the best out of things, even if it's a struggle. But is this the kind of struggle he should be going through at 7yo? He's also recently had a kid being really mean to him a his Chinese school, but the teacher and principal both knew that the kid was causing major problems in the class. I knew in that situation that I couldn't let the kid beat up on DS emotionally any longer, and at the start of this semester made it clear that we would not be in the school if the other kid was in his class. They assured me they would NOT allow it to be a problem again, and so far he's doing really well and the other kid is in a different class.

All that to say, I feel like DS has a lot of emotional bruising going on. I clearly remember getting picked on in school and the kids who never liked me, and I do NOT want that for my son (we're HSing to avoid some of those issues!). But are there other things we should be doing, rather than just pulling out?

I have tried very diligently to coach him through social situations and problems like this, but it definitely seems like there's more to it than he can necessarily "fix" on his own. So do we try another week and see how it goes? Or officially pull out? Or tell him to tough it out for X amount of time? Do we tell the dad/coach what's going on, whether or not we go back?

It's also more complicated for the next 6 weeks or so because we (DH and I) are taking a class at our church down the road from chess. So, neither of us is really available to go sit with him during chess club, as some parents do (mostly they play, too, or one mom visits with the other mom).

Sorry it's so long! Thanks for any input/advice.

[eepster]

What is/was your (collective you) goal(s) for him getting out of chess club? Has he achieved those? Will he achieve them if he puts in more time? Has it turned out the goals were unobtainable?

• If the goal was for him to learn to play chess, it sounds like he got that. Declare it a completed goal and move on to something new.
• If you goal is to have someplace for him to go while you and your DH take a class, then tell him it's just 6 weeks and you would view it as a favor.
• If the goal was for him to make friends, then it sounds unobtainable. Quit now.
• Etc.

[HeatherB]

You know, I'm not sure what our goals were. Learning to play, yes, and getting good at it, yes. He hasn't gotten all that good, it seems, at least in comparison to these kids. But he's ranked over 900, which is, from what I can tell, NOT bad for a 7yo who's only been playing for a year. (Though I'm not entirely sure what system they're using, etc.) He doesn't play at home because the 2yo likes to take the pieces, so I know we're not doing all we can to foster his learning. He will play on the computer sometimes, though.

It's actually far easier if he is NOT in chess during this class, as the times conflict. Our class starts at 5, chess starts at 6, so someone leaves in the middle and comes back for the last hour of class, at which point we pick him up a bit early from chess (because after an hour and a half he's done playing, whether because he's worn out, disinterested, or tired of dealing with the big kids, I don't know). So we've used that as something of an excuse for why he's not been going, especially when my DH was out of town and it seemed pretty stupid to be the only one there AND leave halfway through.

I think making friends was a goal, if a secondary one. Very sad that it does, indeed, seem unobtainable.

Thanks so much for your input!

[deminc]

Hi, I just had the "do you want to continue" talk with DS1 regarding his chess classes earlier today. But mine was a less complicated situation, a mixture of boredom and slightly different wavelength from the others. However the classes are well-supervised and the teacher rotates players and everyone must play. Right now he's the youngest and slightly intimidated by the bigger children, but it's nothing like what you've described.

I would try to find out why he's being picked on (is he?), if it's a one-off or something that has been fairly consistent. Is it down to one instigator? Do YOU think the kids are a fairly nice bunch? If it's something that can be changed or coached, I will work on that. At one point DS would plunge into topics without qualifiers and other kids will laugh for lack of understanding. Now he's learnt to choose his audience, and I've also deliberately exposed him to some popular culture to help him socialise and find ice-breakers.

It's worth finding out what he had expected from the other kids in class, what he means by feeling "special". Did he expect to have more attention from the kids he looked up to? What constitutes a friend to him? etc. Sometimes expectations need to be adjusted to situations.

If the child simply doesn't fit in well, I will look for another chess club that may have different dynamics. I would not ask the child to tough it out. if he's so miserable that he doesn't want to go, he's neither learning nor making friends, so what's the point? I once looked high and low for a good but affordable art class for DS, but after three months, it was obviously the wrong social group for him, even though the kids were generally nice he couldn't find someone that he could identify as a "friend". Even though he enjoys drawing, and he liked the teacher, he wanted to quit the class and we let him.

My kid is younger though, 5+ now, so our focus is very much more on socialising and exploring interests. I might feel more conflicted over this if he's older.

[mom2ponygirl]

Is there another chess group he could join (or you could start) for awhile? It sounds like his current group has great teaching potential, but perhaps spending time just playing for fun and companionship would be better right now. Perhaps with 6 months to a year of playing for fun and making other chess-liking friends, he could try the original class again. By that time there may be a few new kids for him to hook up with.

[Roar]

We've found sometimes that it isn't the activity itself but just particulars of the group. Over the years we've done three or four different chess groups and they were all so different in their structure and social dynamics. Some worked and some didn't.

If I felt like it was just this group, I'd walk away for now and find another group or activity and keep the option open to try it again later. I wouldn't necessarily think of that as quitting, but that he's given the activity some time and he's ready to try something new.

If I worried that it was instead not just a mismatch to the group but a sign that there are some social skills problems, I would investigate further. That might involve talking to the dad/coach in a totally non-accusatory way - like "junior seems to feel like he's not fitting in have you noticed anything or do you have any suggestions?" And, it might also be good if you could arrange to go and observe one meeting. I think this would give you a good idea if there is a fairly simply fix that might work - such as coaching him how to ask somebody to play or helping him find another player in the room at his level, etc. Or, it might tell you that this group isn't a good fit.

While I agree it can be a problem to quit one activity after another any time something doesn't go perfectly your way, we also don't want to teach kids that when you are in an unhappy situation you just stay there. That can make a kid pretty hesitant to try new things if they every time they think they will never be allowed to quit. Childhood is long and there will be lots of activities. It is good to model that if one doesn't work it can be set aside and something new can be tried too.

Has your son said he wants to stop going?

[newbymom05]

If I were in your situation, I'd quit. I've found that the age differences in homeschooling groups seem ideal on the surface--all ages interacting like in real life!--but in reality I've found that the kids voluntarily group themselves according to age and that can be really painful for the younger kids who get consistently excluded. I've found and fought this dynamic in our own h/s group and have just come to accept it and steer my children into groups where they aren't the youngest. IME it isn't worth the constant monitoring/hassle to make sure everyone is included.

I don't think to quit a group that isn't working is giving up or whatever, but realizing that group isn't a good fit for your son.

[dogretro]

I think a year is plenty of time to come to the decision that you don't like a particular activity or group. He says the teacher likes him and that is great! If he's not meshing w/ the other kids, he just isn't. It probably is b/c of the age difference & skill level. If they feel that they don't have anything in common w/ him, they aren't going to go out of their way to include him, esp after a year. It is a sad fact of life, but there you have it. I, too, was picked on a lot by a certain group of my peers & I was an only child, so it really can be so much easier to try and find something different if you don't feel that you fit. The other kids may v well not be intentionally being mean, just don't want to try and include him anymore.

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by deminc

Hi, I just had the "do you want to continue" talk with DS1 regarding his chess classes earlier today. But mine was a less complicated situation, a mixture of boredom and slightly different wavelength from the others. However the classes are well-supervised and the teacher rotates players and everyone must play. Right now he's the youngest and slightly intimidated by the bigger children, but it's nothing like what you've described.

I would try to find out why he's being picked on (is he?), if it's a one-off or something that has been fairly consistent. Is it down to one instigator? Do YOU think the kids are a fairly nice bunch? If it's something that can be changed or coached, I will work on that. At one point DS would plunge into topics without qualifiers and other kids will laugh for lack of understanding. Now he's learnt to choose his audience, and I've also deliberately exposed him to some popular culture to help him socialise and find ice-breakers.

It's worth finding out what he had expected from the other kids in class, what he means by feeling "special". Did he expect to have more attention from the kids he looked up to? What constitutes a friend to him? etc. Sometimes expectations need to be adjusted to situations.

If the child simply doesn't fit in well, I will look for another chess club that may have different dynamics. I would not ask the child to tough it out. if he's so miserable that he doesn't want to go, he's neither learning nor making friends, so what's the point? I once looked high and low for a good but affordable art class for DS, but after three months, it was obviously the wrong social group for him, even though the kids were generally nice he couldn't find someone that he could identify as a "friend". Even though he enjoys drawing, and he liked the teacher, he wanted to quit the class and we let him.

My kid is younger though, 5+ now, so our focus is very much more on socialising and exploring interests. I might feel more conflicted over this if he's older.

I think this is really good advice.

My first thought was that it sounded like this group just wasn't a good fit - possibly due to the age differences or personalities or a combination of both and maybe some other things going on between the children. I was going to suggest trying to set up a different group - maybe even just 1 other child, or at most 4 children in total (you need even numbers to play, right?), closer in age, personality and ability.

I think exploring the possible issues is worthwhile though. If you don't get satisfactory explanations or if it just isn't working out and he isn't happy, then you have your answer. It's time to move on - at least for awhile. He can try again in a couple of years, if the chess club is still meeting.

[Dar]

Originally Posted by HeatherB

I don't want him to quit things because they're hard. I want him to persevere and get the best out of things, even if it's a struggle.

I am not a fan of this "lesson", really. Or rather, I see it as something that happens naturally when the thing is something the kid (or adult) really wants... and I think U.S. American culture is really negative towards stopping doing things that aren't working for you (i.e., "quitting) but in my mind it's good to know what you want and to stop putting your energies into something that you don't.

A lot of adults I know seem to have more trouble with this lesson, really... they stick with stuff long after it's clearly not working.

I think eepster had a really good way of looking at it this, too, by thinking of your goals (and your son's goals). I'm going to remember that strategy!

[One_Girl]

Have you talked to the person in charge of the group and asked them if they know what happened? If they are willing to put a stop to the bullying and ostracizing then I think you should have him try it a few more times but stop if he still isn't happy there. He can play chess at home or maybe in another chess club. If the group leader isn't willing to create a positive atmosphere then I think you should pull him immediately.

[LauraLoo]

Heather - Have you read, "The Bully, the Bullied, and the Bystander?"
http://www.amazon.com/Bully-Bullied-...5495587&sr=8-1

[lilyka]

he tried. for a year. it doesn't cound like anyone is enjoying it. time to move on and find something and some kids he clicks with.

[LynnS6]

Quitting after one lesson doesn't show perseverance. Quitting after a year of not fitting in shows a heck of a lot of perseverance for a child that age!

I find that for my quirky son that interacting with kids who are slightly younger than he is works much better. He doesn't do well with the older kids because he doesn't get some of the social interactions, he's highly reactive so they can get a rise out of him and he's not got a quick verbal response that some other kids have got. His friends are all kids who are younger than he is or his same age.

For that reason, I'd look for a different chess group for your son if he likes chess (one with more kids closer to him in age and ability) or a different activity altogether.

It'll be logistically difficult to arrange alternate care while you're at your church class, but it can be done. Maybe someone in the class has got a teenager who's be willing to play with your son while you're both in the class. (That's where all our babysitters have come from!)

[HeatherB]

I so appreciate all of the input! It seems the general consensus is there's no point in forcing him to go if he doesn't want to (he doesn't) under the circumstances. It's easier for us if he doesn't, and we have a friend who's interested in bringing her son up to the church while we're having class to play chess with DS, anyway. (And there's child care there that we've paid for for all the kids, already.) So we may just do that and let them have fun for a while, and take the pressure off.

I will probably email the dad/coach/teacher who's leading the club, and may say something about DS' difficulties in being the youngest, etc. Not sure just how/what to say, or whether it's worth mentioning if we do decide to just pull him out. DH wants to talk to the coach, I think.

LauraLoo, I have added the book to my Amazon list. Thanks! I haven't read it, and having been there as a kid and seeing a pattern developing with my own DS, it seems like something I definitely need to read.

Dar, I am definitely conflicted on the issue of when to persevere versus not (clearly!). I know we've struggled a bit with DS's piano lessons, where there have been times when he was NOT self-motivated and created a huge problem in the family, yet said he wanted to continue. We nearly pulled him out several times, and yet, I don't want him to quit just because it's hard work - i.e., something he has to work at, period, that doesn't just come naturally to him. We've, quite thankfully, gotten past that and he's doing well (though there was a hint of it again recently after getting out of routine over the holidays). I'm probably pulling up those feelings when thinking about chess, even though they don't really compare. He can always learn to play chess, almost anywhere, and it's not as though he's saying, "I won't do it!" to an assignment. He's just not getting along with the group as well as we'd hoped. So it's definitely an entirely different scenario. Thanks for your thoughts!

I'd actually briefly considered chess instruction and the Chinese school he goes to. I think it would be a smaller group and therefore better for him, but the downside is, it's *expensive!* But, there's no necessity for him to play right now (though I love the idea of chess improving thinking/planning/strategy skills), and we can surely find another group or opportunity (even if it means paying for it) down the road.

Thank you, all!

[ReadingMama]

I think childhood is a great time to try different things! I think when parents insist that their child stay in a group/on a team/in lessons, it makes the child think twice about trying new things in the future. "What if I don't like this? Will I have to do this forever because I agreed to try it?"

When I've invested money in classes or lessons that my son has asked for, I ask him to stick it out for 3 months (or a semester). If he decides he doesn't like it after that time, he can quit and try something else if he wants. That's assuming everything else is going well, and he just doesn't particularly enjoy the activity. If he was coming home crying and complaining of bullying, and there wasn't a way to remedy the situation, I'd drop the activity.

It's hard to know what to do though, isn't it? We're all kind of making it up as we go along!

[alexsam]

What always does it for me is I ask myself "If it was ME in that position, would I want to continue?" Would you want to go somewhere where you didn't fit in and thought people didn't like you and you weren't all into it? No. I think we often expect kids to do things WE wouldn't do at all. If YOU were in a chess club and having the same issues, would YOU stay in it? My guess is not.

There IS a difference between persevering to learn and getting over some "rocky terrain" to see the other side and just beating your head against a wall. With "persevering" there is usually a tangible and clear goal that is wanted by the person working toward it. There are usually other supports- friends, teachers, smaller accomplishments, other small satisfactions that can see you through the "hard parts". If those things are not there- no goal, no desire, no other supports- why continue? There are a million opportunities out there for happiness. Don't let them go by because of failure to allow the lousy stuff to pass by.

Sometimes, the most powerful thing we can do as parents is *not* to "see them through the hard parts" but support their decisions to let go of things that are "not them" and allow them to make their own choices.

[Tigerle]

IIRC you've made mention fo this situation in another thread and I've commented that at this age (I assume the other kids, though older, aren't adolescents yet, maybe up to 12 or so?) it is really the responsibility of the teacher to organize the group into accepting every member, even a younger, quirkier one, once he's been accepted into the class or club - like one parent mentioned about the chess club they liked, with the teacher organizing pairings etc. I think that even if you decide to pull him out anyway you should definitely speak to the parent organizing this in order to find out what their take on the situation is and what efforts, if any, they have made to stop the bullying (it clearly seems a bullying situation, not just a "not a good fit" situation and that is not a situation the child that is being bullied can change himself once it's entrenched imo). Sort of treating it like a learning opportunity to be proactive in the next difficult social situation he encounters, kwim? He appears to be the kind of child that will struggle, and finding out more about the particular dynamics in the case cannot hurt.

That said, I'd strongly advise to let him quit. I have been in many situations like this and in some cases (elementary school) have had to tough it out, but wish my parents had fought for a change of school for me, but that wasn't on anyone's radar at the time, catchment areas being stricter then than they are now. In retrospect the bullying was so entrenched it would have been my only chance. I have been in situations as an adolescent in which I decided to tough it out myself and won acceptance as a result. In one situation I realized, again, it was a lost cause because some kids were actively working against me. I had a hard time persuading my mom to let me quit (I think I was 14) and wish she'd let me do it sooner rather than later because I took a serious blow to my hard won self-esteem - I just wanted out, period. It was really good youth choir and a regrettable opportunity to let go, but being miserable to the point of (in retrospect) clinical depression wasn't worth it (and which goes to show that sometimes it doesn't matter that it's a group with common interests and talents). I have been in many choirs since and have had no problems fitting in and finding friends, which goes to show that sometimes it's just that particular group that's not worth it. And I have still developed strong habits of persistence.

His being so much younger should make it easier on you both: he's quitting because he is too young for the group, and it's not working out, so he is taking a break from chess club until he is a bit older, at which point you can check out this club again or find another.

[GoestoShow]

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Edited by GoestoShow - 1/6/11 at 8:26am

[becoming]

Originally Posted by Dar

I am not a fan of this "lesson", really. Or rather, I see it as something that happens naturally when the thing is something the kid (or adult) really wants... and I think U.S. American culture is really negative towards stopping doing things that aren't working for you (i.e., "quitting) but in my mind it's good to know what you want and to stop putting your energies into something that you don't.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. This might not be a popular opinion, but I think it's okay to quit. There's no shame in quitting something that just doesn't work for you and doesn't make you happy. I wouldn't consider sending him back if it's making him that unhappy. I also agree with the PP (Roar?) who said there is a danger of him not wanting to try new things because he thinks he won't be able to quit, ever, if he doesn't like them.

It sounds like you guys have given this a good shot, and it's just not working. I think it's fine to quit at this point, and I don't think he will take any negative lessons away from this experience, only positive -- knowing that it's important to try to make a situation work, but if it doesn't, it's also okay to bow out gracefully in favor of finding something you enjoy more.