Need advice about moving to a different area from my ex: how to tell him?

[Devaya]

Hi everyone. I've been a single mother since August '09 and have not regretted my decision to leave my alcoholic partner. I have been mulling over whether to leave the city I've been in for the past 5 1/2 years, to move to a lovely town which embodies the values I wish to live and impart to my child (28 months), surrounded by gorgeous countryside. Finally I have made the decision to move there in the spring, and feel really positive about my decision. One of my best friends, who is also close to my son, is also moving there so we will not be flung in the deep end with knowing no one, and it's a very 'community' place so will be easy to meet people.

BUT...I have to tell my ex, who I just know is going to FREAK out. He's very controlling and has been giving me loads of grief for not 'being able' to supply our son with a consistent living environment, since in the months since the breakup we have had to be somewhat nomadic due to financial problems out of my control (to do with not having residency in this country yet). Now I know he's going to see it as uprooting our son once again and will be furious that I will be a four hour drive away and he won't be able to see him as much as he now does, mainly due to lack of money. At the moment he sees him one day a week and one overnight every two weeks. Although he is an alcoholic he is very 'functional' and this arrangement has been working well; he and DS have bonded a lot more than they ever did when we were together, and DS regularly asks for his dad and wants to see him.

So I do feel sad that their contact will be reduced to once or maybe twice a month, but at the same time I feel really sure that the lifestyle of the new place we are moving to is very much more how I want DS to grow up, and I feel very strongly that it is time for me to move on too. I feel angry that just because of making a 'mistake' in choice of partner, I might be stuck living in a place I don't want to, for the rest of my son's childhood. In the city we live in, there is a high rate of drug and alcohol abuse in young people (and adults), higher crime and I feel that kids lose their innocence a lot earlier.

Anyone else relocated after a separation and had to deal with a resistant ex? I'd really appreciate any advice on how best to tell him the news. He is VERY defensive and blaming, and although we are mostly amicable that is only when HE feels like being amicable..it can change around in a moment and become very ugly indeed, and he has often started sending me abusive texts etc. I even thought of suggesting he move closer to where we'll be, as we were considering this move as a couple before our relationship fell apart, so I know it's not something totally foreign to him. Only advantage that I think he could see would be that we'd be living a lot closer to his parents (my son's grandparents).

[Ione]

The only advice I can really give you is first, before you mention anything at all to your ex, find out what the local laws in your part of the world are on move-aways and how they might affect custody. Basically, what your legal rights and obligations are.

Then, plan your move and your notification of the move to your ex in accordance.

There's not much anyone can really tell you without knowing the local laws and so on. (In some parts of the world, you would be free to make a move like that and simply need to inform the father within 30 days after the move... In others, you'd need to give formal advance notice to give the father time to object to the move in the courts...)

Good luck.

[Goodmom2008]

I would check with an attorney before planning any move. Because you may not be able to move with your child if the father doesn't agree to it. And if your ex doesn't agree to it AND he's been exercising his parenting time regularly, chances are a court won't agree to it, either unless the distance won't prevent the current parenting plan from being exercised.

[Devaya]

Well, I consulted a lawyer after the initial split and said I was considering this move, and she said that he can object but the court is likely to favour my side as I'm the day to day caregiver and provided I make reasonable accommodation for visitation, the courts are likely to see it as, what's best for the mother (ie. if this move will make me happier) is best for the child. the onus would be on him to take me to court though, and I know he really can't afford it, yet he also isn't poor enough to qualify for legal aid. So I think it's unlikely he would take it that far. The lawyer didn't mention any time frame of having to tell him a certain time before, and I plan to tell him at least 6 weeks before the move so that he has time to plan moving too if he wants to.

I feel that so much just hinges on how I approach it with him, saying the 'right thing' etc so that he doesn't see me as trying to take his child away from him. If I can somehow emphasise the advantages to our son and make it sound like I want us to be on the same team...

[One_Girl]

Originally Posted by Devaya

Well, I consulted a lawyer after the initial split and said I was considering this move, and she said that he can object but the court is likely to favour my side as I'm the day to day caregiver and provided I make reasonable accommodation for visitation, the courts are likely to see it as, what's best for the mother (ie. if this move will make me happier) is best for the child. the onus would be on him to take me to court though, and I know he really can't afford it, yet he also isn't poor enough to qualify for legal aid. So I think it's unlikely he would take it that far. The lawyer didn't mention any time frame of having to tell him a certain time before, and I plan to tell him at least 6 weeks before the move so that he has time to plan moving too if he wants to.

I feel that so much just hinges on how I approach it with him, saying the 'right thing' etc so that he doesn't see me as trying to take his child away from him. If I can somehow emphasise the advantages to our son and make it sound like I want us to be on the same team...

Do you have a visitation agreement that the court has approved? If so then you will have to live up to it, change it in court, or risk legal problems. He can go into court and fight the agreement without a lawyer. If you don't have a custody agreement in place then I think you should tell him you are moving and try to get him to agree to one that would make him okay with the move so he can't use you moving and restricting his access to the children against you in court.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Definitely be VERY careful about moving. If he can make it look like you are restricting his access custody *could* (but may not be) flipped around. Really - you need to talk to you lawyer, and get permission from the court *before* planning your move.

[StephandOwen]

Originally Posted by Devaya

Well, I consulted a lawyer after the initial split and said I was considering this move, and she said that he can object but the court is likely to favour my side as I'm the day to day caregiver and provided I make reasonable accommodation for visitation, the courts are likely to see it as, what's best for the mother (ie. if this move will make me happier) is best for the child.

So what do you plan to do to make reasonable accommodations for visitation? Because a judge is not likely to let you move away and reduce his parenting time. "Reasonable accommodations" would be YOU finding a way to ensure your ds spends AS MUCH IF NOT MORE time with his dad as he is right now. If I read right- that's 1 daytime visit a week and 1 overnight every other week. The burden will be on YOU to transport your child back to ex's town, since you are the one who moved away. Can you afford to bring your ds back to the current town 1-2 times a week? If not, you should probably reconsider this move. That is not fair to your ex, or more importantly- your ds, that you are making a decision that will affect their time together.

And that is coming from someone who moved herself and her ds 2 states (8-9 hour drive) away from ex (but I did it legally, through the court, and ex wasn't exercising any parenting time so he isn't seeing ds any less than he did when we lived 10 minutes away).

Tread carefully mama.

[StephandOwen]

Originally Posted by Devaya

At the moment he sees him one day a week and one overnight every two weeks. Although he is an alcoholic he is very 'functional' and this arrangement has been working well; he and DS have bonded a lot more than they ever did when we were together, and DS regularly asks for his dad and wants to see him.

So I do feel sad that their contact will be reduced to once or maybe twice a month, but at the same time I feel really sure that the lifestyle of the new place we are moving to is very much more how I want DS to grow up, and I feel very strongly that it is time for me to move on too.

A couple more points.... if I'm doing the math correctly, your ds sees his dad about 6 times a month, right? (4 daytime visits and 2 overnight visits). You want to drop it down to one, maybe 2, visits a month?? First of all- I don't think any judge would actually agree to that, so should he take you to court I'd place money on you losing. At that time, you would risk the judge ordering longer visits (I know some judges do a week at one house and then switch). There are a lot of variations on what a Judge might order, but he's not going to order less than what your ex is already doing. I have to be honest- if you were my ex and you were telling me that you were moving away and I'd only see my kid 1 or 2 times a month, when I'm currently seeing him about 6 times a month, I would be livid. And, yes, I would "freak out" too. He is your ex's kid too, not just yours.

The other thing I wanted to mention- when your ds is asking to see his dad, what do you plan on telling him? Can you honestly look in his eyes right now and tell him that he can't see daddy as much because you made the decision to move away from him?

Do you all have a custody and visitation order in place? What does it look like? I ask because I have concerns that if do not have custody written in a court order then what is stopping him from keeping your ds after you tell him you're moving? If that's what you choose to do, make sure your bases are covered first.

[Devaya]

Wow. Yes I know he is our son but there are other considerations in my son's life than how often he sees his dad. He is at an age where he is more adaptable than he'll prob ever be again, and I don't think he is going to be scarred for life if he doesn't see his dad every week. In fact his relationship with his dad is far better than when they saw each other every day. He can also spend significantly longer periods on holidays for instance with his dad.

The reason for our breakup as I said was his alcoholism which he continues to be in denial about and not seek help for; I have documented proof of this including his assessment by a substance misuse centre, so I don't think I'd be in danger of losing custody. The way it works in the UK is that both parents have what's known as 'parental responsibility', but the main 'carer' (i.e. me) has the right to make day to day decisions about the child's living environment, schooling, health, etc. if the other parent doesn't agree, they can take the main carer to court, but he would have to have a lawyer and doesn't qualify for legal aid.

He would be spending two WHOLE weekends a month with his dad which is four days a month, and at the moment he spends six days a month. Not such a significant difference in my view, and it would be more 'concentrated' time. I'd be happy to do a whole week scenario as has been suggested, but it's not practical in view of my ex's working full time (I work part time and from home). And I'm happy to pay for the costs of the visits etc.

We've done nothing through the courts, we didn't need to, and here in the UK they're not so hot on legal action as it seems to be in the US with regards to separation, custody etc, and also less emphatic about 'father's rights'. But fair point that I need to be careful that he doesn't just not give DS back after seeing him - but again, who would look after him, I don't know, since he works FT and has no childcare sorted out...all of that takes time to organise.

I don't plan on just saying 'this is what i'm doing, screw you if you don't like it'. If he really feels strongly about it I will reconsider. I know of families where a bigger move has been carried out and it worked out fine. I want to work out a workable solution for us all, but at the same time, I feel that if my ex wanted to move an equivalent distance away, I wouldn't try to stop him. People have a right to live their lives, just b/c the relationship with the father of one's child didn't work out, shouldn't mean I can't follow my dreams and try to build a better life for myself and my child.

[StephandOwen]

Originally Posted by Devaya

The reason for our breakup as I said was his alcoholism which he continues to be in denial about and not seek help for; I have documented proof of this including his assessment by a substance misuse centre, so I don't think I'd be in danger of losing custody.

This is a moot point. You allow him to care for the kid, so the "alcoholism" must not be bad. If you were concerned that him being an alcoholic would interfere with his ability to parent his child then you would have taken legal action to keep him from being alone with the child. You cannot let him take the kid for this long and then say "but he's an alcoholic!".

He would be spending two WHOLE weekends a month with his dad which is four days a month, and at the moment he spends six days a month. Not such a significant difference in my view, and it would be more 'concentrated' time.

It may not seem like such a big difference to you, but that's 1/3 less than what he sees his kid right now. So lets say that you have the kid for an average for 24 days a month (assume 30 days in a month and the dad has the kid for 6 of those). If we reduce your time with the kid by 1/3 then you are now only spending 16 days a month with your child. That's a big difference, right?

If your ex wanted to move an equivalent distance away, it would be on him to provide transportation to see his son. But since you are the one wanting to move away then the burden needs to be on you to ensure that the child spends as much, if not more, time with his dad as he currently is. What about you driving the kid to ex's to spend every weekend with him? 3 out of 4 weekends?

I would suggest that you sit down and really think about this. Think about what you would be willing to compromise on and what would really be fair to your ds. After you've done that then sit down with your ex and explain exactly why you want to move and exactly how you are going to support his relationship with his son.

As for the first sentence you wrote in your last post... I personally think that how often a child sees his dad (who is involved in his life and who he does have a relationship with) IS a big consideration. It may or may not be the biggest, but it's pretty high up there on that list.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by Devaya

I want to work out a workable solution for us all, but at the same time, I feel that if my ex wanted to move an equivalent distance away, I wouldn't try to stop him. People have a right to live their lives, just b/c the relationship with the father of one's child didn't work out, shouldn't mean I can't follow my dreams and try to build a better life for myself and my child.

If your ex had physical custody, and you had the visitation schedule that your ex has right now, would you feel the same way? I can't imagine that the answer would be yes. Even though the UK doesn't view custody in the same light as the US does, consult a lawyer before moving forward with your plans to move. They will be more able to direct you than we will online.

[Goodmom2008]

Originally Posted by Devaya

Wow. Yes I know he is our son but there are other considerations in my son's life than how often he sees his dad. He is at an age where he is more adaptable than he'll prob ever be again, and I don't think he is going to be scarred for life if he doesn't see his dad every week. In fact his relationship with his dad is far better than when they saw each other every day. He can also spend significantly longer periods on holidays for instance with his dad.

The reason for our breakup as I said was his alcoholism which he continues to be in denial about and not seek help for; I have documented proof of this including his assessment by a substance misuse centre, so I don't think I'd be in danger of losing custody.

And he has documented proof that you don't really care about that when it comes to his son.

He sees his son, unsupervised, 6 days a week. Two of them include overnights.

By having done that, you pretty much made your documented proof worthless.

[Goodmom2008]

Originally Posted by Devaya

but at the same time, I feel that if my ex wanted to move an equivalent distance away, I wouldn't try to stop him.

Hmm, I don't believe you. I think that if your ex wanted to take his son with him when he moved an equivalent distance, you would fight it tooth and nail.

BTW, it wouldn't be you that your ex would be trying to keep from moving. It would be his son.

[La Sombra]

Originally Posted by Goodmom2008

And he has documented proof that you don't really care about that when it comes to his son.

He sees his son, unsupervised, 6 days a week. Two of them include overnights.

By having done that, you pretty much made your documented proof worthless.

I think this is a little harsh, mama, and parenthetical to the issue at hand in that, look, I'm also divorcing an alcoholic. Did I want to raise my child in an environment like that? Did I want her to grow up thinking that drinking was a normal way of dealing with things? Absolutely not, and that's one of the reasons that I left STBX. BUT. For women who made babies with more-or-less high-functioning alcoholics it DOESN'T MATTER in terms of custody. No judge is going to agree to forbid STBX access to his dd just because of a documented drinking problem, especially when there are no felonies or anything involved (and even THEN, sometimes!)

So we let our STBXs have access to the children not because we "don't really care about that" but because it is a reasonable choice and, in most cases, the ONLY choice.

Yet when you have proof of STBX drinking problem, it COULD sway a judge not to award full-custody to the alcoholic spouse if it came down to having to decide such a thing. Not necessarily, but it could. And that was OPs point.

I just wanted to point that out because being married to an alcoholic is HARD and leaving an alcoholic is hard, too, because you have to trust them with your child. I don't think it's fair to imply that Devaya is somehow negating her own claims by letting STBX have access to ds because probably for her, as with many of us, it really is a reasonable choice and most likely the ONLY choice.

[Devaya]

Originally Posted by La Sombra

I think this is a little harsh, mama, and parenthetical to the issue at hand in that, look, I'm also divorcing an alcoholic. Did I want to raise my child in an environment like that? Did I want her to grow up thinking that drinking was a normal way of dealing with things? Absolutely not, and that's one of the reasons that I left STBX. BUT. For women who made babies with more-or-less high-functioning alcoholics it DOESN'T MATTER in terms of custody. No judge is going to agree to forbid STBX access to his dd just because of a documented drinking problem, especially when there are no felonies or anything involved (and even THEN, sometimes!)

So we let our STBXs have access to the children not because we "don't really care about that" but because it is a reasonable choice and, in most cases, the ONLY choice.

Yet when you have proof of STBX drinking problem, it COULD sway a judge not to award full-custody to the alcoholic spouse if it came down to having to decide such a thing. Not necessarily, but it could. And that was OPs point.

I just wanted to point that out because being married to an alcoholic is HARD and leaving an alcoholic is hard, too, because you have to trust them with your child. I don't think it's fair to imply that Devaya is somehow negating her own claims by letting STBX have access to ds because probably for her, as with many of us, it really is a reasonable choice and most likely the ONLY choice.

Thank you for this. I was starting to find things just a little harsh on this discussion too! I think it is difficult for people who haven't been in a situation with an alcoholic, to understand. Just b/c he can keep it together to look after DS for short periods of time and refrain (hopefully - I have no way of knowing for sure) from getting drunk, doesn't mean he can do that for extended periods of time. In fact, having lived with him for 3 years, I know he can't do it. But I chose the route I did (of allowing access) b/c the alternative (no unsupervised access) was to destroy any hopes of an amicable relationship between us, create a vicious court battle (he would have taken me to court on that for sure, money or no money) and being unfair to DS. I do genuinely want him to have a relat with his dad, alcoholic or not, but there is no way that he is a fit parent to do it full time. Things just aren't that black and white. Also, when I was considering not allowing any unsupervised access after the separation, my lawyer told me it wouldn't work b/c I had already been allowing this 'access' when we were still together (on my work day), so he would have grounds to say that it was working and no reason to change it.

As for the weekends, well, as soon as DS starts preschool in September he wouldn't be able to have that weekday with his dad anyway, so it would become an alternate weekend situation due to the fact my ex works alternate weekends. So I really don't see that I'm doing anything so drastically different here! ANd yes, fair point that I wouldn't be so happya about my ex moving far away if I WEREN'T the primary caregiver, but I was meaning in the situation we're in now. Anyway, I will consult my lawyer just to check things out again and take it from there, and certainly think long and hard before announcing anything to my ex.

[Goodmom2008]

Originally Posted by La Sombra

I think this is a little harsh, mama, and parenthetical to the issue at hand in that, look, I'm also divorcing an alcoholic. Did I want to raise my child in an environment like that? Did I want her to grow up thinking that drinking was a normal way of dealing with things? Absolutely not, and that's one of the reasons that I left STBX. BUT. For women who made babies with more-or-less high-functioning alcoholics it DOESN'T MATTER in terms of custody. No judge is going to agree to forbid STBX access to his dd just because of a documented drinking problem, especially when there are no felonies or anything involved (and even THEN, sometimes!)

I grew up with an alcoholic father just so you know that I am not completely clueless when it comes to alcholism and the impacts it has on children.

BTW, there is NO court order. Therefore, she is under no obligation to let the alcoholic have the toddler unsupervised because a court ordered unsupervised visits. The fact that she is allowing overnight and unsupervised visits despite her documented proof of his alcoholism is what makes her proof worthless in court.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by Devaya

Anyway, I will consult my lawyer just to check things out again and take it from there, and certainly think long and hard before announcing anything to my ex.

Thats all anyone here was suggesting - it is possible that you will be allowed by a court to move. BUT, doing so without the courts permission could fip custody - it would here in the US. Proceed with caution - I don't think anyone here was trying to be harsh, just trying to warn you of the dangers of doing anything without a courts permission.

[Devaya]

Originally Posted by thyra

Thats all anyone here was suggesting - it is possible that you will be allowed by a court to move. BUT, doing so without the courts permission could fip custody - it would here in the US. Proceed with caution - I don't think anyone here was trying to be harsh, just trying to warn you of the dangers of doing anything without a courts permission.

Sure. But the tone could have been more 'be careful mama, look out for this or that' rather than 'how dare you remove your child from the father'. I came on her for support and guidance on how to approach the issue verbally with my ex. But I appreciate that the posts have made me think through the legal ramifications more thoroughly.

Things are moving forward...I spoke to my lawyer this morning and she said that custody and unsupervised access are two completely separate issues and the fact that my ex is an alcoholic would prevent him getting custody regardless of the fact he now has unsupervised visits, since there is no way he could sustain a custodial situation. I'm legally allowed to move anywhere in the country but my ex can however get a prohibitive steps order through the courts to try to stop me moving. So I can either just up and move and wait for his action (which apparently won't affect my custody rights; he could apply for custody regardless at any time), or first apply for a specific issue order which basically is telling the courts I plan to move, and giving all the backup and info about why I think this is a better place for our son to live. I'll do that before moving.

[LoveOhm]

Originally Posted by Devaya

The reason for our breakup as I said was his alcoholism which he continues to be in denial about and not seek help for.......(snip)

He would be spending two WHOLE weekends a month with his dad which is four days a month, and at the moment he spends six days a month. Not such a significant difference in my view, and it would be more 'concentrated' time. I'd be happy to do a whole week scenario as has been suggested, but it's not practical in view of my ex's working full time (I work part time and from home). And I'm happy to pay for the costs of the visits etc.

I am not suggesting you not move however since you let him care for your son already with his alcoholism it's going to not carry weight in court. Are you really okay leaving your son with an alcoholic for concentrated amounts of time???? I can only comment on the judge in the court where my case is and where I have observed for hours but in your situation my judge would suggest two extended weekends a month meaning Friday - Sunday night or Monday morning. Plus daily phone calls or video conferencing would you be okay with that?

[Devaya]

No, I'm not okay with it, Loveohm. It would be too risky. Things have taken a turnaround. I told my ex my preliminary thoughts (not making it sound like it was something I was absolutely definitely going to do), and he wasn't happy but didn't totally freak, said he'd think on it and get back to me. Well after much back and forth 'discussion' (via SMS/text message since I was at work) the next day, and doing some reflection on it myself, I decided not to go ahead with it at this stage. What we agreed on was a 'trial period' of me having 6 months in the current city with my own place (DS and I have yet to experience a stable living environment for more than a month since the relationship ended) and then reevaluate.

Basically I could see the sense of giving life here a chance, because there is so much going for us here - great support network, great friends, and a lot of facilities. Sometimes I think it's easy to see the 'solutions' somewhere else and do a sort of 'geographical', or an escape thing, when the new situation is going to have its own set of problems too. And as one poster mentioned, yes, I couldn't really stomach the thought of DS asking to see his dad daily (as he does now) and me not being able to deliver that regularly, and I also didn't really want to have to go through protracted legal proceedings. Plus my X's parents are now moving down here in the autumn so he will have more extended family around which I believe is good too.

I think I'm just going to have to make more of an effort to get out into the countryside more regularly (hard without a car - I was planning to get one if i moved though), and try to incorporate some of the things that appealed to me about the new town, into my life here - like sustainability and being part of a community. So one step at a time at the moment. Thanks everyone who listened in on my journey!