We have to get rid of our dog, don't we?

[boysmom2]

He bit my dh this morning. We have 3 little kids, the youngest is a crawling 8mo. We can't risk him hurting one of the kids.

Here's some background: He's a 4yo shi tzu, we got him as a puppy. He's been a pretty good dog except that he likes to eat socks and underwear that don't make it into the hamper, occasionally gets into the trash. He was hit by a car 2 years ago and as a result has only 3 legs. He gets around fine. He's always been "my" dog. If he did something naughty and I yelled at him he'd cower and act guilty. If dh yelled at him he'd bark at him.

Over the past few days, every time he's been left alone he's peed or pooped in the house. He's done this occasionally over the years, but never like this. He did it when I dropped ds1 off at school, then again when I dropped ds2 off at school an hour later, then again when I picked each of them up... So yesterday I kept him in the kitchen all day. He still left messes, but they were easier to clean up. After DH got home, I bathed the dog and mopped the kitchen floor (I had been cleaning up individual messes all day). While I mopped the kitchen the dog peed on the bathroom floor twice. So, dh put him outside while I finished the floor. Maybe 10 minutes. Then we put him back in the kitchen with an old blanket for the night. He barked off and on all night. dh got up a few times to see if he needed to go out.

Then this morning ds1 (7yo) came in our room to say that he wanted to go downstairs to play his Wii. I reminded him why the dog was in the kitchen and told him not to let him out. Well ds must have thought I meant not to let the dog outside, because he went downstairs and let the dog into the house. The dog came running upstairs. I was nursing the baby so I woke dh and asked him to put the dog back in the kitchen. They all went downstairs and a minute later I hear barking and yelling and all this comotion. DH said that he told the dog to go into the kitchen and he wouldn't so he reached down to pick him up and the dog turned around and bit him. He said it wasn't like he just snapped at him, he bit hard and "chewed" on his finger. It looks awful. The dog didn't act guilty afterwards either. DH is getting it checked at the ER right now. If the dog had bitten the baby that hard, he would have taken off a finger.

I don't think we can safely keep him around the kids, but I just feel terrible about this. If I had gotten up this morning this never would have happened. But then again, if he's capable of this, maybe it's good that we found out.

Ugh. I hate this. The kids are so upset too.

[JessicaTX]

I think a visit to the vet might be in order. Perhaps the dog has a bladder infection or something, and that's why he's having so many accidents, and it could be that he's hurting and your husband touched a sore spot when he tried to pick him up.

[muttmom92]

Yeah, if this isn't normal behavior for him, a vet visit is in order first. Then I would consult with a behaviorist before I even thought about giving him up. A couple of things struck me as I was reading this:

If there isn't a physical problem and the dog is having anxiety issues, separating him from the rest of the family is probably just making this worse. From his perspective, he wants to be a part of the pack but he's isolated. He finally gets out and then your DH tries to put him back. I would panic and try to get away too.

I'm not trying to be mean. I do understand your POV, with 2 little kids and having to clean up messes. I just think maybe you should be looking at it from the dog's POV too.

Also, don't expect a dog to feel guilty. It's just not part of their make up. It doesn't mean he's bad, he's just not capable of feeling remorse.

Please get him checked out before you even think about giving him up.

[griffin2004]

whether you decide to rehome him or not, you need a vet visit to find out the source of all these recent problems; it's too much atypical behavior to be coincidental; you can't find a new home for him while he's ill

if you decide to keep him, your dh needs to establish himself as a pack leader; a trainer or behaviorist can help with that; your vet may have some referrals

[lifeguard]

Originally Posted by muttmom92

Yeah, if this isn't normal behavior for him, a vet visit is in order first. Then I would consult with a behaviorist before I even thought about giving him up. A couple of things struck me as I was reading this:

If there isn't a physical problem and the dog is having anxiety issues, separating him from the rest of the family is probably just making this worse. From his perspective, he wants to be a part of the pack but he's isolated. He finally gets out and then your DH tries to put him back. I would panic and try to get away too.

I'm not trying to be mean. I do understand your POV, with 2 little kids and having to clean up messes. I just think maybe you should be looking at it from the dog's POV too.

Also, don't expect a dog to feel guilty. It's just not part of their make up. It doesn't mean he's bad, he's just not capable of feeling remorse.

Please get him checked out before you even think about giving him up.

Very well worded. Something is obviously wrong with your pup. When I'm in pain I'm certainly not myself & all those bathroom messes don't sound right.

[GearGirl]

"get rid of" seems a little harsh. Do you not want this dog? I think his problems can be worked out if you want him, especially given his small size! I would not rehome him.

[Shahbazin]

I agree that the sudden making messes in the house sounds atypical; I also understand that you are legitimately concerned about your kids. How has the dog reacted with your older kids (ie your 7 yr old, for instance) in the past?

I'd get him thoroughly checked out by a good vet, & take it from there. It does sound like a bladder infection is a real possibility. If he feels sick, it could be making him anxious, & if his bladder/kidneys hurt, it could explain the bite.

[Ola_]

I agree - he needs a thorough vet checkup right away! Make sure blood work and urine/stool sample testing is included. Sudden changes in behaviour are often a result of illness or pain and the dog has no other way to communicate them to you.

Also, I think you would greatly benefit from some training - have you done any training classes with him before? It sounds like he would really benefit from some structure and having a way to communicate with you (training is great for that). Also I think you need to rethink your approach a little - yelling at a dog and making him cower are not good methods to tell him what you want him to do. And as a PP pointed out dogs don't "feel guilty", what you were seeing before when you yelled at him was not remorse but fear.

I'm not sure how much exercise he gets on a daily basis, and what his restrictions are due to the missing leg. But it sounds like he needs some more as long as the vet checkup is all clear. It's a great way of relieving stress for dogs just like for humans.

[Annie Mac]

I don't think one bite (provoked, at that -- the dog was in a stressful situation and could easily have interpreted your husband moving in on him to pick him up as an attack) constitutes a dangerous dog. It does sound like your dog is going through something though. I guess the question is: how committed are you to this dog? It seems to me that if you are willing to take the dog to the vet to rule out physical problems, and that if you and your family are willing to work with a trainer and follow up on their suggestions, you should have a lot less problems. But it's honesty time: how committed are you? It *is* a lot of work and requires time, consistency and follow-up. If you're into it, it can be quite rewarding, but it's not for everyone.

[boysmom2]

Thank you all so much for your reponses. I really appreciate all your thoughts on this. Sorry I didn't reply sooner, the kids and I were at My Grandma's over night last night.

Originally Posted by JessicaTX

I think a visit to the vet might be in order. Perhaps the dog has a bladder infection or something, and that's why he's having so many accidents, and it could be that he's hurting and your husband touched a sore spot when he tried to pick him up.

We will definitely take him to the vet before doing anything else. I asked my husband if he thought he had hurt the dog when he tried to pick him up and he said that he had been reaching to grab his collar, but hadn't actually touched him yet.

Originally Posted by muttmom92

Yeah, if this isn't normal behavior for him, a vet visit is in order first. Then I would consult with a behaviorist before I even thought about giving him up. A couple of things struck me as I was reading this:

If there isn't a physical problem and the dog is having anxiety issues, separating him from the rest of the family is probably just making this worse. From his perspective, he wants to be a part of the pack but he's isolated. He finally gets out and then your DH tries to put him back. I would panic and try to get away too.

I'm not trying to be mean. I do understand your POV, with 2 little kids and having to clean up messes. I just think maybe you should be looking at it from the dog's POV too.

Also, don't expect a dog to feel guilty. It's just not part of their make up. It doesn't mean he's bad, he's just not capable of feeling remorse.

Please get him checked out before you even think about giving him up.

Your comments do make sense. And I don't really mean "guilty," but maybe realizing that he's done something he shouldn't have. I'm thinking of a time when my brother was playing with his dog and they both tried to grab the toy at the same time. His dog accidentally bit my brother's hand instead of the toy. My brother yelled "ow" and the dog immediately acted like he knew he shouldn't have done that. I guess that's the sort of thing I was thinking of.

Originally Posted by GearGirl

"get rid of" seems a little harsh. Do you not want this dog? I think his problems can be worked out if you want him, especially given his small size! I would not rehome him.

I do want him, but not if he's a potential danger to my children.

Originally Posted by Ola_

I agree - he needs a thorough vet checkup right away! Make sure blood work and urine/stool sample testing is included. Sudden changes in behaviour are often a result of illness or pain and the dog has no other way to communicate them to you.

Also, I think you would greatly benefit from some training - have you done any training classes with him before? It sounds like he would really benefit from some structure and having a way to communicate with you (training is great for that). Also I think you need to rethink your approach a little - yelling at a dog and making him cower are not good methods to tell him what you want him to do. And as a PP pointed out dogs don't "feel guilty", what you were seeing before when you yelled at him was not remorse but fear.

I'm not sure how much exercise he gets on a daily basis, and what his restrictions are due to the missing leg. But it sounds like he needs some more as long as the vet checkup is all clear. It's a great way of relieving stress for dogs just like for humans.

I guess I should have explained better. I don't really "yell" at him. If I discover that he's gotten into the trash, for example, I usually make a loud gasping sound. Then I tell him in a stern, serious voice that he's done something bad. So, not screaming, but he definitely knows he's done something I don't like.

Thanks so much everybody. I guess we'll see what the vet has to say.

[greenmagick]

I really hope this comes across ok as I dont mean for it to sound snarky or rude. You really need to learn more about dog behavior. Having accidents is not vindictive or to show displeasure. If he cowers or "acts guilty" about something like getting in the trash, unless you are catching him in the act, he has no clue what you are upest about....he is just reacting to your mood and trying to make it better.

I would do a lot of research and reading and possibly enlist a behaviorist after a vet check. Even if there is a physical reason for this bite, there are other worrisome issues IMO that need to be addressed.

[WaturMama]

What a tough situation. My heart goes out to you.

From what I understand about dog behavior it seems that one likely explanation is that your dog sees himself as 2nd most alpha in the pack after you. (He responds to your reprimand, but barks back at your dh.) Dh trying to pick up the dog was aggressive to the dog and, in the dog's mind of how the dominance works, inappropriate. The dog gave a warning nip. If your dh had been hairy like a dog it wouldn't have been a bad cut. You need to make sure the dog doesn't communicate to dh again or to your dc in this way. The dog needs to know that he is lowest in the dominance order and it is not his place to reprimand.
I would get a good behaviouralist (your vet may be able to recommend one, but make sure you have good rapport with the person, listen to your gut) to evaluate the situation and attempt to help.

I hope it works out that your dog can stay with you safely. I was in a similar situation once myself. Fortunately we were able to keep our dog. All has been well. But when I did think about finding another home for her, I really tried to avoid thinking "get rid of" and instead thought about finding a happy home for her.

I hope some of that is helpful and wish you very well.

[Sarah W]

Originally Posted by JessicaTX

I think a visit to the vet might be in order. Perhaps the dog has a bladder infection or something, and that's why he's having so many accidents, and it could be that he's hurting and your husband touched a sore spot when he tried to pick him up.

This. A sudden behavior change can signal so many different physical problems. Can he hear? Is his sight maybe going out? It just seems like he was scared of your DH and it might be one of those two things.

I would really give a vet a chance to help you guys.

[Sarah W]

Originally Posted by greenmagick

I really hope this comes across ok as I dont mean for it to sound snarky or rude. You really need to learn more about dog behavior. Having accidents is not vindictive or to show displeasure. If he cowers or "acts guilty" about something like getting in the trash, unless you are catching him in the act, he has no clue what you are upest about....he is just reacting to your mood and trying to make it better.

Actually, I have found this to be untrue. My dogs can do something while we're at work and as soon as I walk through the door I immediately know that they've done something. Their behavior is completely different, they'll start to run up to me, then run under the computer desk. All I have to do is look around to see what they tore up. They do get scolded, but they rarely get yelled at. They don't get hit at all. (except when they get in DD's face when she has food) : She has no qualms about defending her cracker.

I know that sounds crazy. DH and I argued about this for months. I refused to accept that they remembered whatever it was and forgot immediately Finally, while he was out one night, they tore up my yoga mat and paper. DH saw it and didn't say anything about it. (he was drunk and thought it was funny) It was about 1am. So I told him I'd do an experiment when I got home. I got home at 11 am, so probably 10+ hours after they did it. I took a video camera and recorded me coming home. I got home, they hid. I called them out to say hello and pet them like every day. Then I walked into my bedroom.

The video:
http://www.youtube.com/user/s2sergea...26/xcAq6KPJ91M

[kblackstone444]

Your dog is sick, uncomfortable, maybe in pain. That is why he's acting like that, probably why he's going to the bathroom everywhere. Please bring him to the vet asap!

[GoBecGo]

Great video Sarah W. I too could totally tell if my dogs and even my horses had done something they knew i wouldn't be happy about (and like you, occasionally i scolded, very very rarely i yelled, i never hit).

My dad was once bitten very badly by a dog. It was an ex-police animal and was home all day with my mother and sister and had no issues when my brothers came in from school. My dad walked in, said hi and the dog, an old english sheepdog, leapt at him and bit him 4 times very quickly on his hand and wrist. My brothers weren't there, and my mum was holding my sister (6 years old) on her hip, having picked her up as soon as the dog leapt at my dad. My dad just stood there because the whole attack had taken about 5 seconds and he was totally shocked. No one said one word to the dog, but it went and lay with it's face in the corner and whimpered for the next hour (they just left it where it was and called it's handler to come collect it). My dad had more than 40 stitches and has scars all over his arm. Until the handler came no one went NEAR the dog, let alone spoke to it, shouted at it, hit it or tried to even touch it, yet it cowered and whimpered that whole time.

Later it turned out that it HAD bitten before (goodness knows why they rehomed it with children!) and it's trainer had had plenty to say. I absolutely think it remembered it should have done what it had did and felt fear/remorse/guilt/regret after the event.

[greenmagick]

Originally Posted by Sarah W

Actually, I have found this to be untrue. My dogs can do something while we're at work and as soon as I walk through the door I immediately know that they've done something. Their behavior is completely different, they'll start to run up to me, then run under the computer desk. All I have to do is look around to see what they tore up. They do get scolded, but they rarely get yelled at. They don't get hit at all. ]

well, there has been research done and from everything Ive read and observed they are still responding to you and the cues you give off. Often they realize you do not like poop on the ground or things torn up but they dont actually get that its them doing those things that is the problem. They just now the result causes you to be upset. With my two dogs, my older one I used to scold when he would get into something when I was gone.....I thought he knew. I read more and stopped scolding, he still acted "guilty". It was because the association was there....he sees the mess knows I'll be upset so he offers calming signals to me (to us we read as guilt) as soon as I walk in the door before I even know something is wrong. Now my new dog I have never scolded or done the "what did you do" routine....never got a guilty look or calming signals when I come home to a mess. If I am home and catch her in the act she immediately stops and does know she shouldnt be in certain things. The difference is they cant correlate an act they do hours before with why you are upset...they just know you are upset.

[boysmom2]

Originally Posted by greenmagick

I really hope this comes across ok as I dont mean for it to sound snarky or rude. You really need to learn more about dog behavior. Having accidents is not vindictive or to show displeasure. If he cowers or "acts guilty" about something like getting in the trash, unless you are catching him in the act, he has no clue what you are upest about....he is just reacting to your mood and trying to make it better.

I would do a lot of research and reading and possibly enlist a behaviorist after a vet check. Even if there is a physical reason for this bite, there are other worrisome issues IMO that need to be addressed.

Maybe I shouldn't be using such human terms for his behavior. I'm sure it's stress or anxiety that has caused him to poop in the house in the past and not that he is disappointed in our behavior. But, what I was getting at was that he's done this before when we've been really busy. He ends up getting left at home more than usual and that stresses him out and so he poops in the house. Since he's done that before, I did not immediately think that he could be sick, since he was acting totally normally otherwise. Now though, after the bite and since the messes have gone on longer than it has before, I do think there is likely more to it. He has a vet appointment for this afternoon.

Originally Posted by WaturMama

What a tough situation. My heart goes out to you.

From what I understand about dog behavior it seems that one likely explanation is that your dog sees himself as 2nd most alpha in the pack after you. (He responds to your reprimand, but barks back at your dh.) Dh trying to pick up the dog was aggressive to the dog and, in the dog's mind of how the dominance works, inappropriate. The dog gave a warning nip. If your dh had been hairy like a dog it wouldn't have been a bad cut. You need to make sure the dog doesn't communicate to dh again or to your dc in this way. The dog needs to know that he is lowest in the dominance order and it is not his place to reprimand.
I would get a good behaviouralist (your vet may be able to recommend one, but make sure you have good rapport with the person, listen to your gut) to evaluate the situation and attempt to help.

I hope it works out that your dog can stay with you safely. I was in a similar situation once myself. Fortunately we were able to keep our dog. All has been well. But when I did think about finding another home for her, I really tried to avoid thinking "get rid of" and instead thought about finding a happy home for her.

I hope some of that is helpful and wish you very well.

Thank you. I do think he has an issue with his place in the family pack. I am definitely his pack leader, but not so much DH.

Originally Posted by Sarah W

Actually, I have found this to be untrue. My dogs can do something while we're at work and as soon as I walk through the door I immediately know that they've done something. Their behavior is completely different, they'll start to run up to me, then run under the computer desk. All I have to do is look around to see what they tore up. They do get scolded, but they rarely get yelled at. They don't get hit at all. (except when they get in DD's face when she has food) : She has no qualms about defending her cracker.

I know that sounds crazy. DH and I argued about this for months. I refused to accept that they remembered whatever it was and forgot immediately Finally, while he was out one night, they tore up my yoga mat and paper. DH saw it and didn't say anything about it. (he was drunk and thought it was funny) It was about 1am. So I told him I'd do an experiment when I got home. I got home at 11 am, so probably 10+ hours after they did it. I took a video camera and recorded me coming home. I got home, they hid. I called them out to say hello and pet them like every day. Then I walked into my bedroom.

The video:
http://www.youtube.com/user/s2sergea...26/xcAq6KPJ91M

That's what I've seen too. I have never hit or been unkind to this dog. When he does something he shouldn't I tell him no in a stern voice, but I don't scream at him or do anything that would make him afraid of me. He still tucks his tail between his legs and slinks around as soon as I come in before I have any idea that he's done anything. Anyway, that's kind of what I would have thought he'd do after biting dh, since he knows he shouldn't bite.

Anyway, hopefully the vet can figure something out for us. And I just want to say again, in case I haven't made it clear, that I really do love this dog. If it turns out that we can't keep him, it will completely break my heart. I am willing to work with him, but if it comes down to choosing between him and my dc's safety, he'll have to go. If that is the case I will do everything I can to find him a good home.

[ouesi]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo

Later it turned out that it HAD bitten before (goodness knows why they rehomed it with children!) and it's trainer had had plenty to say. I absolutely think it remembered it should have done what it had did and felt fear/remorse/guilt/regret after the event.

Fear, maybe... Remorse, guilt, regret no. Dogs are very smart and intuitive, but modern brain science proves very convincingly that though dogs DO feel emotions, they are incapable of feeling the more abstract/ambivalent ones such as guilt and remorse. The portion of the brain responsible for these emotions is literally absent in a dog. (And horses too btw.) Dogs are however incredibly perceptive and in-tune to their humans, and they DO form associations between trash on the floor and mom upset, and will apease her appropriately. What they don't connect is that mom is upset about WHO put the trash on the floor. Greenmagick is right.
I know it seems nit-picky, but when you humanize dogs like that instead of understanding them as fascinating animals in their own right, you end up making errors in training and communication that eventually can and do lead to problems, including horrific bites like the ones described in this thread.

[Ola_]

Originally Posted by ouesi

Dogs are however incredibly perceptive and in-tune to their humans, and they DO form associations between trash on the floor and mom upset, and will apease her appropriately. What they don't connect is that mom is upset about WHO put the trash on the floor.

I agree, there have been experiments done on this. Basically before the owner comes home someone takes the trash and scatters it all over the floor (i.e. not the dog). Then the owner comes in and dog looks guilty.

But wait, we know the dog didn't do it! It's a simple association of "if there's trash on the floor when human comes home, I'm in trouble", nothing about the dog having done it.

I hope the vet is able to give you some information. I know around here they do just a simple "health check" so you may need to push for them to do a urinalysis and stool sample, etc. Depends on the vet though. Make sure they check ears, joints, back also - those are the most common culprits IME.