Should I let STBX take dd out of the country? - Page 2

[SoulCakes]

I just wanted to add a few more things after reviewing others' posts:

US citizens DO NOT have fewer rights than native citizens anywhere in the EU. If anything, foreigners (particularly Americans) have even MORE rights. The only things a US citizen on vacation in England does not have access to are public funds and free use of the National Health System.

If anyone is uncomfortable with their ex traveling out-of-country with their children, then certainly do not allow it. Ensure that you have a clear custody arrangement before any travel does take place. But please do not think that it's "easy" to abduct a child to the UK, the EU, or Canada. Abduction is a serious crime with very steep penalties. Most of all, the foreign country will be on YOUR side, not the other parent's.

[rocky]

Originally Posted by SoulCakes

The UK, like all Western European countries as well as the US, follow the Hague Convention. If your STBX were to keep your daughter in England against your will, England will ship her straight back to you. Whether he can get a UK passport for her is irrelevant - without your express permission AND a formal custody agreement that CLEARLY outlines that she can permanently reside in England, he WILL NOT legally be allowed to permanently move her to UK.

I just want to repeat: because of agreements between the UK and the US, your husband cannot get custody in England. Custody is a process wrought by the state in which you divorce. Just because your daughter may have a claim to UK citizenship does not mean that your husband can get a UK custody agreement. Because of the Hague Convention, it would never even make it to court.

If you did want to allow him to take your daughter to visit her grandparents, provide him with a notarized letter stating precisely how long her visit may last. If the UK immigration officer is a good one, he or she will only stamp her passport for that length of time - meaning that she's legally required to leave before her tourist visa expires. This of course is irrelevant if she already has a UK passport with which to enter the country.

But, please. Unless your husband is very crafty and wants to go into hiding, it would be very difficult for him to keep your daughter in England. There are cases, of course, where this has been done, but the abducting parent immediately becomes an outlaw. If your husband plans on seeing his daughter in the future, it's a very unwise choice.

Do get custody formalized before any international travel.

For the record, I think she's too young to be without you for two weeks if she isn't used to it.

For more information, see these links:

http://travel.state.gov/family/abduc...ntion_560.html
http://travel.state.gov/family/abduc...ction_580.html
http://travel.state.gov/family/abduc...tion_2873.html

I think this is bad advice.
I understand that you see the law is on the side of the "foreign" parent but I do not believe this to be the case. If the child has dual citizenship she could live permanently in England with her father who is not divorced from her mother. If the parents are not divorced and there is no custody agreement in place it is my understanding that there can be no kidnapping. My husband can come here, get on a plane and take my kids to his country with him and I will have a heck of a time getting them back.
I will be in a foreign country with no job, no home, no car, no support system. My full time job will be lawyers, courts, and the biggest horror story imaginable. I would not be able to afford it financially or emotionally. Why would you risk this? Hoping the judicial system will favor you?
There are thousands and thousands of kidnappings every year (the FBI receives 2000 Missing child reports per DAY according to http://www.soldiersandkids.com/childkidnappingfacts.htm) and 50% of kidnappings are in the family. So a lot of parents seem to be willing to become "outlaws" for this reason.
You need to do what you need to do for your child. Do not take unnecessary risks, hoping the law is on your side. Maybe it is but even so it could be years in court to get your daughter back.

[Kailey's mom]

No way.

[La Sombra]

Just wanted to tell you mamas thank you so much for all the advice, which helped to bolster my already nagging intuition.

I also spoke with my attorney friend who said that he would definitely advise me against letting her ago at least until everything was sorted out legally, and he did indicate that if STBX *were* to try to keep dd in the UK that it would be a HUGE, complicated mess (SoulCakes helpful information nothwithstanding).

Quite apart from all that, his proposed timeline is TWO WEEKS and my dd of 2.75 years has never in her life been away from me for more than two nights (and even then, that was only once). There is no way I can see this being good for her and I would not, as PP mentioned, consent to this under the BEST of circumstances.

So I'm going to tell him no, that we need to wait for everything to be sorted out legally (which means, indeed, that I will have to wait, too, before taking her abroad--but as PPs have said, that's a small price to pay, in the end) and that we will have to wait much longer before I'm okay with him taking her for that length of time.

Now I'm just nervous about how he's going to take it. I feel in a way that he is deliberately pushing me up against the wall, daring me to say no. I do dare say no, and I wonder now how he is going to react. But I suppose that's another thread entirely...

Thank you all so much again, I feel you have helped me do the right thing and keep my dd safe.

[SoulCakes]

Just for the record, I did say that a custody arrangement must be in place before anyone takes a child anywhere. It's true that if two parents are still married, either one can abscond with their child and it would not be considered kidnapping.

We're an international family, so we deal with immigration and traveling on a near-constant basis. I just wanted to point out that with the majority of western countries, it's very difficult for either the custodial parent or non to make off with a child. A lot of people seem to feel that once a border is crossed, you lose all your rights to your child, and that simply isn't true.

La Sombre, I'm glad you feel comfortable with your decision. Definitely make sure you have your divorce finalized and international travel addressed before any of you go anywhere!

[La Sombra]

Originally Posted by SoulCakes

Just for the record, I did say that a custody arrangement must be in place before anyone takes a child anywhere. It's true that if two parents are still married, either one can abscond with their child and it would not be considered kidnapping.

We're an international family, so we deal with immigration and traveling on a near-constant basis. I just wanted to point out that with the majority of western countries, it's very difficult for either the custodial parent or non to make off with a child. A lot of people seem to feel that once a border is crossed, you lose all your rights to your child, and that simply isn't true.

La Sombre, I'm glad you feel comfortable with your decision. Definitely make sure you have your divorce finalized and international travel addressed before any of you go anywhere!

Yes, SoulCakes, your advice was clear to me and I really appreciate it. Thank you again!

[GoBecGo]

Hey, i see the original question has been resolved (and i really think you're wise, get everything legally settled (which will also allow him time to cool off) before anyone goes anywhere)), so i just thought i'd butt in WRT when kids are old enough to go abroad with the "other" parent...

I too had a messy-ish break up (not really but i had feelings for someone else and my XP was NOT happy, understandably, with the way it was all ending, although he did concede that the way things were BEFORE the end were unhappy due to him as much as me) and there was a lot of anger there. He went from being relatively uninvolved to being gung-ho about parenting DD (which was ultimately wonderful for her) and his drug problem (cannabis) has completely resolved in the years since due to his desire to be a better and better parent (he's even quit smoking cigarettes! ), so really, despite the initial anger and difficulties, it all worked out nicely. Anyway i digress!

I would say that a child is old enough to go abroad with a parent when they are old enough to KNOW and be able to USE the phone numbers which would be pertinent if they WERE being kept away against their will. For some sassy kids that would be 8, for others it might be 14, 16 or even 18. It totally depends on personality. From my POV right after the break-up i would NOT NOT NOT have let XP take DD anywhere but his family's houses (very close by, one bus ride) and even then i wanted to know about it. But now she is older (nearly 4) and would actually begin to ask questions like "when will i see mama?" and "can i phone mama now?" i would actually trust him because his anger is gone, and we are good friends again. So time can change everything.

Maybe in a year or two you could stop over in the UK on your way to Spain and spend some time sight-seeing (in the rain, blah! Actually it's sunny today) while your STBX and DD spend time with his family...? Anyway i guess i just wanted to say that you guys will get through this, and that IME reacting to how things are in the moment is the safest and best way through. Which means when he is angry you expect that to colour his actions, and when he is calm, in months and years to come, you see that he is acting rationally and act accordingly.

Best of luck to you all!

[robinchap1]

It sounds like you have made a decision (a good one, I think), so I won't advise you on that.
But I do have a few thoughts about dealing with your ex, in case it helps.

From how you describe him, it probably doesn't matter what you say or how you handle it. He is going to be mad no matter what. It sounds like he needs to keep finding reasons to be angry at you. This may even be some kind of test, on some level, to see if you are going to stand up to him. And there may be other issues of him feeling like he doesn't have any control, etc. But ultimately, this is not your problem (I know it feels like it, trust me!). But you can't control how he chooses to act or feel.

SO... instead of thinking about what you can say that might make him not so mad (cuz there probably isn't anything), think about what you can say that you know is being honest and fair and that will be useful to you in court or mediation if/when you end up there. I would be simple and clear. You feel DD is too young, there needs to be a more gradual build up to extended time away, etc. Not long explanation, just straightforward. Also state that you are aware that both of you will be wanting to bring DD out of the country to visit family and friends and recognize how important this is, so it is a crucial element to address in your formal visitation agreement. I wouldn't make suggestions about how it will be addressed right now. Just acknowledge the importance of the issue.

If he tries to engage you in any kind of discussion/argument, etc. just don't engage. Simply repeat that you need a formal, legal agreement and a plan for these types of visits needs to be a part of that. If he says nasty things to you or accuses you of things, simply hang up, leave, etc. If he threatens anything with DD, calmly let him know that you take his threats seriously and will take appropriate legal action. And document.

I would contact the embassy, etc. You don't have to let him know you are doing that stuff. He will only ever find out if he tries to take her without your consent.

Good luck. I know how awful it is to be negotiating with someone like this and sending your child with them. It is SO hard.

Try not to let him see you flustered or upset if you can. The sooner he learns that you are going to be calm, fair, play by the rules and unshakable, the sooner he will calm down and stop bullying types of behavior.

Take care.

[choli]

I don't think 2.75 is too young to travel with one parent - both of my DDs traveled alone with me, and alone with my DH at that age. However, we were not in the middle of a messy divorce. Even at that age I think that your child might be made very anxious and unhappy about the vibes she's been picking up from both of you, and be very unhappy at being away from all things familiar.

As others have pointed out, it's better for NEITHER of your DDs parents to take her out of the country until you divorce and custody agreements have been finalised.

[La Sombra]

Robinchap1 and GoBecGo, thank you both so much. Both of your posts really spoke to me and addressed things that I needed to hear. GoBecGo, I need to think that someday our relationship may be better, more understanding, trusting and cooperative and less antagonistic than it currently is. It's nice to think that even though it seems impossible now, that sometimes time really can heal a lot of wounds. I do, in my actions with him, try to focus on being calm and reasonable so that hopefully someday that can happen.

On the other hand, Robinchap1, what you said really struck me powerfully. I think both because I am a woman and women (in general, not always, I realize) tend to be pacifiers, etc. and because I am, in particular, a huge people pleaser AND because of the guilt I feel over leaving him have been too lenient. In my response to him, I tried to do exactly what you said. I was calm, clear, kind but fairly brief. His response was very nasty. But I absolutely get the feeling that, as you say, he is challenging me to say no to him. The way I am starting, finally, to feel is that I will work to be patient and reasonable and all the things that will a) make me feel best about myself and most true to myself, b) be best for ensure a better co-parenting relationship between us in the future and c) look good in court, should that ever be something that I need. BUT. I'm not going to allow him to blatantly disrespect me anymore. Because I have, indeed, to accept that I CAN'T CONTROL HIS FEELINGS. I have certainly learned so far that no matter how quiet and yielding I am, it doesn't placate his anger. So why not stand up for myself? I mean, that's why I left him.

I'm rambling now but I just wanted to let you both know that I think you nailed some things on the head and I really appreciate what you have said.

And the rest of you, too...I am feeling very good about my decision if worried about the general state of our co-parenting relationship at the moment.