I'm embarrassed I don't know this already

[Pirogi]

Can someone tell me if/how vaccines are purported to protect against bacteria? I had always heard growing up that vaccines are only effective against viruses (... although now I question what "effective" really means and if the effects of vaccines in the body can be construed as effectiveness against disease). Can someone give me a primer? This is what (I think) I know about vaccine theory:

1. Vaccines contain parts of viruses (antigens) that cause a person's immune system to begin producing antibodies at an individual rate.
2. Antibodies in a person's bloodstream will "recognize" when a person is exposed to the virus from which the vaccine antigen was created.
3. This recognition is supposed to shorten the time lag between infection and immune reaction, lessening the severity and/or shortening the duration of the disease.

Is this the theory? Is it exactly the same for bacterial vaccines? Why did I always hear and think that vaccines only "work" against viruses? If they do induce an immune response against bacteria, why aren't there more bacterial vaccines?

[carriebft]

with the hib vaccine is a polysaccharide with a protein, it mimics the "capsule" on the outside of the hib bacteria, allowing the body to amount an immune response.

ETA: there quite a few effective bacterial vaccines; I am not sure where the idea that only viruses can be vaccinated against effectively comes from.
Diphtheria, PCV, Hib are all examples, pertussis, perhaps, is a less great example, as you don't as good efficacy with that one.

[mamakay]

1. Vaccines contain parts of viruses (antigens) that cause a person's immune system to begin producing antibodies at an individual rate.

Sometimes. Sometimes it's a whole "dead" virus. Sometimes (measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox) it's a living virus that was "weakened" by letting it replicate in non-human tissue for a while, so it get better at infecting, say, monkey kidney cells, so when you put it back into a person, it's not so good at infecting humans any more.
They also "weaken" viruses for vaccines by hybridizing them with an animal version of the human virus (rotavirus vax) or adapt them to a lower temperature (flumist).

If they do induce an immune response against bacteria, why aren't there more bacterial vaccines?

There are lots and lots of new bacterial vaccines in the works. Clinical trials just take a while. They only relatively recently got good at making bacterial vaccines.

[Deborah]

some of the older bacterial vaccines are not vaccines against the bug but against the toxin: tetanus, diphtheria and pertussis are all vaccines against toxins. Not exactly sure how that works...

[lioralourie]

Originally Posted by Deborah

some of the older bacterial vaccines are not vaccines against the bug but against the toxin: tetanus, diphtheria and pertussis are all vaccines against toxins. Not exactly sure how that works...

You're partially on track, but this isn't accurate so I'll just clarify...

The DISEASE symptoms present clinically as a result of the toxins created when the bacteria die in the body (endotoxin mediated symptoms I think). In effect, you get symptoms (pertussis: phlegm and paroxymal spasmic coughing...) because your body IS fighting the bacteria, winning against them, and you are getting well.

The vaccines work the same way as other vaccines: they create antibodies (some of the time, anyway) against the bug in an attempt to pre empt the bug getting hold in the body. Only works some of the time, and causes other problems like lowered cellular immunity which is responsible for like 98% of the immune system's work against pathogens! Just ask me, with a daughter who is IgA deficient (low cellular immunity because of a specific genetic protein producing problem), my DD comes down with EVERYTHING that comes around, is sick all winter, and her poor humoral system is constantly working hard to fight bugs. With a strong cellular immune system, your body licks the bugs right in the mucous membranes, and no antibody response is necessary. BTW this is how people can be immune to, say, diphtheria and not even know it. They never got sick from it, but their body DID come across it, and DID fight it off. No, they have not a lot of antibodies, maybe none, this is also how antibodies do not equal immunity and the whole theory of vaxes is FLAWED fundamentally.

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by lioralourie

You're partially on track, but this isn't accurate so I'll just clarify...

The DISEASE symptoms present clinically as a result of the toxins created when the bacteria die in the body (endotoxin mediated symptoms I think). In effect, you get symptoms (pertussis: phlegm and paroxymal spasmic coughing...) because your body IS fighting the bacteria, winning against them, and you are getting well.

The vaccines work the same way as other vaccines: they create antibodies (some of the time, anyway) against the bug in an attempt to pre empt the bug getting hold in the body.

No, actually for diphtheria and tetanus, you're just immunized against their one bacterial toxin (and we can argue about how well the monovalent pertussis toxin vax works compared to the whole cells or acellular pertussis vaxes).

[lioralourie]

so, they extract the toxin that the bacteria (T,D) make, and somehow alter the toxin a little, and somehow the body still recognizes the substance as from the organism, and makes appropriate antibodies?

How come immunity can come from tetanus toxin at all, when this paper "Management and Prevention of Tetanus" Journal of Long-Term Eff ects of Medical Implants, 13(3)139–154 (2003)

says this

Because there is essentially no natural immunity to
tetanus toxin, the only effective way to control tetanus
is by prophylactic immunization.

Isn't this an oxymoron?? Splain it to me please!

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by lioralourie

so, they extract the toxin that the bacteria (T,D) make, and somehow alter the toxin a little, and somehow the body still recognizes the substance as from the organism, and makes appropriate antibodies?

How come immunity can come from tetanus toxin at all, when this paper "Management and Prevention of Tetanus" Journal of Long-Term Eff ects of Medical Implants, 13(3)139–154 (2003)

says this

Because there is essentially no natural immunity to
tetanus toxin, the only effective way to control tetanus
is by prophylactic immunization.

Isn't this an oxymoron?? Splain it to me please!

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=582877

[Pirogi]

Originally Posted by lioralourie

The vaccines work the same way as other vaccines: they create antibodies (some of the time, anyway) against the bug in an attempt to pre empt the bug getting hold in the body. Only works some of the time, and causes other problems like lowered cellular immunity which is responsible for like 98% of the immune system's work against pathogens! Just ask me, with a daughter who is IgA deficient (low cellular immunity because of a specific genetic protein producing problem), my DD comes down with EVERYTHING that comes around, is sick all winter, and her poor humoral system is constantly working hard to fight bugs. With a strong cellular immune system, your body licks the bugs right in the mucous membranes, and no antibody response is necessary. BTW this is how people can be immune to, say, diphtheria and not even know it. They never got sick from it, but their body DID come across it, and DID fight it off. No, they have not a lot of antibodies, maybe none, this is also how antibodies do not equal immunity and the whole theory of vaxes is FLAWED fundamentally.

Hmm. This is where I was ignorant (). I never really had a course on this in high school or college. Here is a good site that discusses (our understanding of) how the immune system works, for others like me:

http://www.thebody.com/content/art14050.html

I thought this was especially interesting:

A vital mind-body connection has been uncovered with NK cells. A multitude of methdologically sound studies have demonstrated relationships between how we cope with stress and the vitality of our NK cells. These cells represent a bridge between psychological factors and our resistance to viral and malignant diseases.