Critique my method: DD is hitting/pinching/mean voice

[Shami]

I need suggestions for how to react to my 27 month old dd. She is doing a lot of hitting and speaking in a mean way, mostly to me. I really don't think time outs are for all occasions, but I have been taking her to her room when she hits me. I think that for antisocial behavior the person just needs some time to regroup. Unfortunately she doesn't regroup that well sitting on my lap.
Please critique my two different methods.
Method # 1
I walk her or carry her to her room if she won't walk herself. I tell her that she can come out when she is ready to be gentle with me. Usually she will cry a little and in one minute or less she comes out saying I am sorry, mama. Then I say I forgive you. Please use your words to tell mama _____________. Please don't hit me, it makes me sad and it hurts. See my ouchy (usually she pinch/scratched and sometimes draws blood) What can you do to help mama feel better?
She usually gives my ouchy a kiss, offers a bandaid, or gives me a toy or says sorry.
This seems to get her back to her sweet self, but then...
something happens again. Usually it's when I can't give her my full attention.
Do you think she is too young to be taken to her room? My dh wants me to make her stay in her room with her door closed, but I just can't do that to her and I don't see the benefit. I just want to send a clear message that it is NOT okay to hurt someone with your body or your words.
Method# 2
Sometimes I just leave the room. I say, ouch with a sad sad face. I am going to another room because you hurt me and I don't like to be hurt. I won't let you hurt me anymore. Then she follows me saying sorry mama. It just melts my heart when she does that.

OK, to make my question clear, I presented two scenarios.
Which one is better for a 27 month old? Or a combo? Or should it be consistent? Or tweak it for me, with new ideas.

[ssh]

I think your DD is too young for either method. Saying "owie that hurts, be gentle" and then touching your DD gently while saying it is more age appropriate. You can put her down if you're holding her and say "I don't let people hurt me" but then pick her back up if she asks. The walking away to another room or putting her away in her room could give her the idea that you only like/love her when she is nice. You can show gentle disapproval of violent behavior without isolating your toddler. She's still at an age where separation anxiety can be a big issue. She'll learn to respond appropriately to anger and frustration easier and probably sooner if fear isn't thrown into the emotion mix.

When my 4 year old is rude I sometimes suggest(not make) she go to her room until she's in a better mood. But we don't isolate people to punish them in our family, though an upset person can choose to isolate themselves until they feel better.

[Shami]

Thanks, SSH.
I want to add that she has been pinching and biting since she was about 15 months old. For three months straight I did what you suggested, gentle hands and showing her. Then around 18 months I caved to some pressure and did time outs for one week. At the same time she began biting a playmate of hers regularly. I caved and took the advice of family and began spanking. I did this for one week straight. It just felt awful and hypocritical, and I stopped.
So, I went back to the owie, use gentle hands and demonstrating, modeling. I am her main target and she draws blood. So, this last month I have been completely ignoring the pinching. So, it looks like this: I am changing her clothes, she gets mad and pinches and I move my arm away continuing the task with no words or eye contact. Never talk about it later. It seemed to get less, but she has added hitting and a mean voice to the mix.

I have been doing this from about 18 months until now, 27 months.

I feel like I need to step things up a bit. She is showing some impulse control now. I see her stopping herself from pinching. She hasn't bitten any other children for a long time. I am getting good reports from the nursery where I go on Sunday that she is having less and less pinching incidents with the other children.

However, now she is pinching, hitting, and using a mean voice with me many times a day in different variations. It's too much with me, and less with others. Never does it with dh.

I just don't think I have the stomach to continue saying owie, gentle hands and not do anything else with it. When will it stop?! Please!

[elizawill]

both of my kids went through a phase where they hurt me on purpose. i just put them off my lap and out of arm's reach. i told them if they were going to hurt me then i didn't want to hold them. i reiterated gentle touch of course, but for me, it was a logical consequence. i didn't use a lot of words, but was very calm and clear with them. they stopped before too long. maybe that would help?? i remember those days and don't miss them, lol. hang in there, mama. hugs.

[ssh]

Originally Posted by elizawill

both of my kids went through a phase where they hurt me on purpose. i just put them off my lap and out of arm's reach.

This will work. You can put your DD down or get out of her reach. As long as you don't leave the room or put her somewhere alone it isn't isolation and doesn't trigger separation anxiety. Impulse control isn't something that 2 year olds have. Even 3 year olds don't have a lot of it. It sounds like she's trying to let you know she's angry about what changing her clothes, as in your example. 2 year olds are starting to explore how much power they have over their selves and their own bodies, so they can get really angry over changing clothes or diapers, or stopping an activity. Also children's behavior is often worse for their primary caregiver because they trust that person the most. 2 and 2.5 can be really difficult emotional time because of all the changes going on. Time outs usually don't work for this age and can cause more problems.

[hollytheteacher]

See this wouldn't work with my ds (29 months) who is doing something similar as the op. Last night he threw a boot at my face...very on purpose...he wound up with a big grin and I said "please put down the boot." to which he then threw it at me.

For the last week there have been purposeful hurting things towards me only (not dh). So OP i know your pain! Also... putting him down and staying a few feet away doesn't work. Ive tried it and then he came back and punched me and hit me and used a mean face and said things like "i WANT to hit you. hit! hit!"

I'm sort of at a loss too. It is helpful when DH is here (and he has been because he's been sick) because he walks ds through all the steps.
"it's not okay to hurt mama. hitting hurts...please do gentle touches" and dh models the whole thing and than asks if I"m okay which then prompts DS to ask if i'm okay...

BUT if we are ALONE I have had to resort to "i'm going to read a book upstairs right now...when you are ready to be gentle you can join me." and then i went upstairs and shut my door and waited for him to knock. He knocked and then I asked if he was ready to see if I was okay. Then he cried and said "no i want you to read me 'owl babies'." I said "no thank you i will let you in when you are ready to give me gentle touches and see if I am okay" After a few minutes he said "okay I ready".

sorry for all the typos i'm NAK

[One_Girl]

I think you should tell her "Don't hit, say___" then fill in the words for whatever you think she is trying to get by hitting or what you want her to say. I think preventing hitting is a good idea if you can tell what triggers her and when she seems frustrated enough to hit. Walking away is a good thing if you are so angry you can't deal with the situation right away, but I think it is very important to give her words to say right away because her attention span is short and her focus switches from what she did to what she needs to say to come out of the room or to get your attention back very quickly once she is there.

[Shami]

Thanks for all of the replies and empathy.

I just am at the end of my rope with this. Tonight she pinched me six times, SIX. I do all of the things you are suggesting to do. I've got owies all over now.
Here is an abbreviated version of the incidences today.

Pinched for not giving her gum. She found it in my purse.
Pinched for being on the computer, not giving her my full attention (I am a stay home mom, she gets plenty of attention)
Pinched for having my foot on the couch where she wanted to climb.
Pinched for throwing away daddy's gum and not letting her dig it out of the trash.
Pinched and an attempted bite for only letting her watch two youtubes before bed.
Pinched while putting on PJs.

For the love of God. Somebody tell me what I am doing wrong. I say all of the things you are telling me. I have been saying it since she was 15 months old. I am totally on board with the GD way, but when will I stop being pinched. I spend all of my energy and patience all day long trying to be one step ahead of a pinching moment. I validate her feelings, redirect, give her food all day long, limit sugar, no junk foods, she has naps, she can jump and climb on anything she wants, I take her to play grounds/playdates, her environment is stable, I am at home, I still nurse on demand, I coslept until she wanted her own bed (I offered and she loved the idea), she still comes into bed anytime she wants, I hold her all.the.time., I never, not once CIO, we don't yell, I involve her in all of my chores, give her choices, lots of choices, she helps me cook, anything I think she can do, i let her do it, I negotiate (I say one book, she says two and I say okay two books) I am not a hard nose about anything (except the carseat), SHE'S GOT IT MADE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!

My one big mistake was the week of spanking/time outs.
Whew, maybe I should be over in yell at this thread instead of your child!

I thought I'd list it all because I think that since I did/do all of those things, we have a lot of trust and a strong bond. I don't think she will feel the separation anxiety (since I am not locking her in, she has the freedom to come back to me), or lack of love from me if I go to another room or take her to her room when she draws blood. It seems like a natural consequence to me, and I like natural consequences a lot, as long as it doesn't hurt her.

Ssh, I know you think that the two methods hurt her, but when can I show her that you hurt me and I won't stick around for this.

Just putting her down doesn't work because she comes after me pinching my legs. What can you do when your child attacks you?

Say this continues until three or four years old. When can a child begin to learn that when ya hurt someone, they probably won't want to stick around.

Please, tell me this is a phase and it'll all be better soon. This is just hurting my heart a little.

[ssh]

I never had this kind of problem with violence. DD never pinched only hit or kicked sometimes and only bit during full blown tantrums (not often at all). So I'm no expert. We had issues with DD being very intense and high energy at that age. The books I found helpful were Parents, Kids and Power Struggles and Raising Your Spirited Child both by Mary Kurcinka. They might be useful for you. I agree with you that's it's important that you don't let your DD hurt you, but I'm not sure how to do that with your DDs current behavior. It sounds like it's happening over every little annoyance. I know 2.5 was a really difficult age for us, but my DD had hysterical tantrums, the crying so hard she could barely breath, sometimes kicking and screaming when we left places. My DD did out grow it, and both kinds of behaviors are inappropriately dealing with anger. When she could say "I'm angry" at almost 3 the tantrums were mostly gone. It seems with small children most everything is a phase, we're going through some rude and bossy behavior right now at age 4.

Of your two methods the second sounds gentler, but I'm sure if there isn't something that would work more effectively. Sorry if I sounded judgmental, I didn't mean it that way.

[LynnS6]

FWIW, we used the methods you described. Partly we did it because I wanted the kids to get a strong message that this isn't OK. Partly I did it because I saw red when they did this, and I needed separation from them to keep them safe. I've got a temper and I need to enforce boundaries.

While it's less gentle than some of the methods suggested, I think it's OK. Our kids are 5 and 8 now, and it did not damage our relationship. I'm not abandoning them, I'm separating them to calm down, to calm me down, and break the cycle.

What I would do is cut down on the verbal explanations though. "Stop, that hurts. Ouch. Be gentle."

When she's calmed down, you might also practice 'gentle touches' with her.

You might also consider seeing if you can get some sort of exercise ball or something that she can pinch. It might help her if she can transfer the habit to something acceptable.

[D_McG]

I think it's a big protracted/wordy and 'fake'. When DS went through his hitting phase it took me way longer than a minute to be calm. I would say "hitting me is unacceptable and I won't tolerate it" and then I'd put him in his room until I was calm. A couple of minutes, I guess. And then if he wanted to do something fun shortly afterwards the answer was no. I'm still upset that you hurt me and I don't feel like doing that but we can ____ (do something less fun).

[betsyj]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

FWIW, we used the methods you described. Partly we did it because I wanted the kids to get a strong message that this isn't OK. Partly I did it because I saw red when they did this, and I needed separation from them to keep them safe. I've got a temper and I need to enforce boundaries.

While it's less gentle than some of the methods suggested, I think it's OK. Our kids are 5 and 8 now, and it did not damage our relationship. I'm not abandoning them, I'm separating them to calm down, to calm me down, and break the cycle.

What I would do is cut down on the verbal explanations though. "Stop, that hurts. Ouch. Be gentle."

When she's calmed down, you might also practice 'gentle touches' with her.

You might also consider seeing if you can get some sort of exercise ball or something that she can pinch. It might help her if she can transfer the habit to something acceptable.

I am like Lynn-I have a temper so when my son pinches me I set him down and walk away while saying, "that hurt me so I am going into the other room." I simply don't worry that he is learning that I only love him when he is nice. Sorry, but hurting me makes me mad and sometimes when I get mad I have to leave the room.

We practice gentle touches on his body-I have found that to be really effective and can now even head him off. He gets this little glint in his eye when he is getting ready to pinch or bite and I remind him to be gentle and he gently rubs his head.

I also remind him he can pinch and bite pillows or whatever, but never me or Daddy or his friends.

[Shami]

Ssh, oh, no no you never sounded judgmental, AT ALL. Sorry, I should have said more to you when I addressed you in my last post. I addressed you because you seem like you are on the most gentle side of GD and I would love to be there, especially when she pinches.
I think I am kind of in the middle for the most part.

I asked to be critiqued and I can take it. I wanted to hear from the most GD side to the other side, whatever that is? I wanted answers from all over the spectrum is what I'm trying to say.

I am going to check out that book about power struggles because I think that is what it is and like Lynn, I see red, too. It is def one of my buttons. Recently, she was mad because I had to do dishes, (I really HAD to in this case) and she bit my leg. I hurt so bad I swatted her bum and made her sit in the kitchen chair for a minute. Not a proud mommy moment.
So this is why I finally posted because my automatic response is to want to swat her bum, but I don't want to spank.

It is good to hear from some who have BTDT, Lynn and DMcG.
DMcG I can't switch gears to doing something fun either. She can come out of a cry, ready to play and even laugh while my head is smokin' still. I have told her I don't feel like playing right now because you hurt me. How long did your little one's phase last?

Lynn, maybe when she can say she's angry the phase will start to fade. The other day she was mad because I was trying to brush her teeth. So I let her little squirmy body up to talk to her about it. She had tried to pinch me. I asked are you angry? "NO" Are you mad? "NO" Are you sad? "NO" She said, "I mean"
Interesting that she recognized she was being mean. It was the truth.
Holly the teach, hope yours doesn't become a battle like mine. All I can say is when they know where your buttons are, they push them. Try not to let it become a button. I agree with whoever said to cut back on the words.
Now, how can I remove this button?

Sorry my posts are so long. I appreciate you all letting me get this out. It helps me process.

[Momily]

I sometimes think of myself as the "Pearl" of the gentle discipline world. I don't hit, I don't yell, but I do intervene early, swiftly, and decisively with my child, and he knows it when he does something I don't like.

I believe that growing up in a household where people hurt people they love is confusing and scary and overwhelming to children, regardless of whether they're the ones hurting or being hurt. While I understand people's concerns about time out, and isolating a child, I have bigger concerns about the message it sends a child when they are able to repeatedly hurt people they love.

My guess is that something is "reinforcing" your child. Another way to put it is that something is happening after she pinches that she leads to her doing it again. Based on your description, I'm going to guess that it's the processing, and the attention she gets afterward, the part you describe as "your heart melts". From your description, I'm imagining a situation where she's upset about something, often your lack of attention, and so she pinches, she gets about 30 seconds or a minute of something unpleasant (being led to her room, or you leaving her room) and then a much longer period where your attention is fully on her, and off whatever was bothering her in the first place.

My other guess is that at 27 months she is old enough to have some impulse control (not perfect impulse control, that takes a life time, but the fact that a child is not good at something yet isn't a reason to not teach the skill, if we waited until people were good at things before we taught the how to do them they'd never learn anything), and that she already knows that pinching hurts, that you don't like it, and that you'd rather have her use her words.

Given that, here's what I'd do (and I'm putting on my flame proof suit here, because I know people will say I'm cruel and heartless). If she hits or pinches or whatever, I'd say one strong "NO" (not yelling, but a quiet firm tone, no added words, just "No") and then I'd separate myself from her for a moment. In my house it worked better to carry my child (facing away from me, so he wasn't all snuggled up with me) or lead him to the sofa, and leave him there and then walked away. When she followed and apologized I would simply say "Thank you, I need you to play by yourself". If she continued to follow me, I'd ignore her. If she pinched or bit me again, I'd repeat "No" and carry her to her spot, and then go on about my day. Once she finally engaged in something independently, I'd let her play for a while and then find an opportunity to include her in what I'm doing, but it would be light -- no dramatic forgiveness, just "I'm going to the mailbox, would you like to come" or "if you'd like to help me sort these socks you may", and then go about your day, including her as you normally would.

[Shami]

Originally Posted by D_McG

I think it's a big protracted/wordy and 'fake'. When DS went through his hitting phase it took me way longer than a minute to be calm. I would say "hitting me is unacceptable and I won't tolerate it" and then I'd put him in his room until I was calm. A couple of minutes, I guess. And then if he wanted to do something fun shortly afterwards the answer was no. I'm still upset that you hurt me and I don't feel like doing that but we can ____ (do something less fun).

I know what you mean by wordy and fake. I thought that by putting on my sad hurt face and showing her my owie or my angry face ( I just realized that I alternate sad and angry, prob depending on my level of patience) would help her learn empathy. Maybe it would help her to truly 'feel' sorry. Now, after doing this for 12 months, TWELVE!, I just feel like a broken record.

Mommily, your suggestion is very doable for me at this stage. If you had suggested this to me 6 months ago I probably would have said no I can't do it. You are so right about the attention. Right after she apologizes, I say I forgive you, thank you for apologizing. Then I start in with my schpeel the pinching hurts, never pinch mama, it makes me sad/angry, see my owie? what can you do to help me feel better...blah blah blah
So there it is! She's been getting rewarded with my FULL attention almost immediately after the pinching. That's the button she found to push every time!
Mommily, or anyone, if I do what mommily suggested, should I have little conversations with her at other times of the day about gentle hands and practicing with gentle hands. Or, should I drop all of that for a time? She knows my schpeel by heart. If she could really speak, she could spout it back to me, line by line. She probably hears me in her dreams! lol I mean, it's been a whole year already. Good Lord have mercy!

[D_McG]

For me when DS was younger (below 2?) it was v. effective for me to make him re-touch me gently. No harshness was effective b/c he literally couldn't control himself. Now he's older and knows better so I don't bother with the gentle touch talk. But I honestly can't remember where he was at 27 mos.

Does she hit in public? Rough with friends? b/c that was another thing that was effective. Any agression and we were done (we came homefrom playgroup or wherever we were) and I would basically talk it to death all the way home.

[Shami]

Originally Posted by D_McG

For me when DS was younger (below 2?) it was v. effective for me to make him re-touch me gently. No harshness was effective b/c he literally couldn't control himself. Now he's older and knows better so I don't bother with the gentle touch talk. But I honestly can't remember where he was at 27 mos.

Does she hit in public? Rough with friends? b/c that was another thing that was effective. Any agression and we were done (we came homefrom playgroup or wherever we were) and I would basically talk it to death all the way home.

Yes, she is quite the bully, even with older kids. I wonder if she has personal space issues. Many times kids will come running up cheerfully saying hello and in her face...she sometimes pinches their face. She can't stand for kids to rough house around or for another child to play physically with her. I don't get this because I rough house with her on the bed all of the time.
I have taken her home for pinching/biting another child, but not every time, which might be the problem. I usually say sorry to the child and tell dd, look at him, you made him cry, you hurt him. What can you do to make him feel better? She always says sorry and offers a kiss/hug or a toy. This is what I have been teaching her for an entire year.
If I am not around, for example in the nursery on Sunday, I get glowing reports that she did not hurt anyone. If I am serving in the nursery with her, yowza! Pinch, pinch, pinching the other kids.
Oh, and I used to do the re-touch me gently thing back when it started. She was 15 months then and I too thought she was too small for anything harsh.

[D_McG]

If she's not rough when you're not there then I'm starting to think that she kind of digs your discipline She might enjoy the drama of it. I don't mean that in a mean way. Just like it's probably exciting/predictable and it ends up well.

I would certainly leave every time and start with some more serious consequences.

Or you could go the other route and do a reward chart for violence-free days.

[Shami]

Originally Posted by d_mcg

if she's not rough when you're not there then i'm starting to think that she kind of digs your discipline she might enjoy the drama of it. I don't mean that in a mean way. Just like it's probably exciting/predictable and it ends up well.

I would certainly leave every time and start with some more serious consequences.

Or you could go the other route and do a reward chart for violence-free days.

yup!

[angelandmisha]

Shami, I'm going to go out on a limb here and just say what struck me in reading your posts- it sounds like she is wanting your attention. I know you said you SAH but are you distracted? I know I get distracted quite easily at home with things I'd like to do. My ds(29months) has not done any hitting or pinching, so I don't really have experience with that, but it sounds like she maybe has a little trouble with transitions and then she hits/pinches? I found myself wondering if you explain what is happening or what is about to happen. I find that I get much better cooperation if I let my ds in on what's going on. For example, he was really fighting me on diaper changes- well I realized I was just springing it on him. So I started saying things like, " We need to get a fresh diaper on." Him: "No! No! No!" Me: "Ok, so you're not ready for that yet?please try to get ready, we'll need to do that soon." Then I'd come back in a few minutes and ask/remind again. Most of the time it seems he just needs more time than I do to get used to the idea that something(however minor) is about to happen/change.

It sounds too like maybe she doesn't have words to ask for what she wants so she pinches- like your example of your foot being where she wanted to climb. You might say something like, "Oh! You want Mommy to move her foot so you can climb here. You don't have to pinch me. I'm sorry I was in your way, I'll be happy to move my foot." Perhaps you already do a lot of explaining/describing/giving her words or concepts, but if you don't it might help.

A couple of good books are How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk and my favorite, Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn.

Obviously, I'm pretty much on the way gentle side and I don't use time outs. I think I would try to figure out what it is she's asking you for by pinching you. Only you can figure that out probably. Maybe it's more focused attention maybe it's more control over herself/environment or maybe it's more information about what's happening. In trying to imagine what I would do in your situation, I think I would probably just say, "Ow! That hurts, Mama doesn't like that." And then carry on. But like I said, I haven't been faced with the same thing and I'm sure after months of being pinched I'd be pretty fed up too. I hope any of this helps, if I'm totally offbase, feel free to disregard. Good luck, I'm sure it's tiresome to be worried about when you'll get pinched again.