Bible Familiar Mamas: I need help with something

[AFWife]

Background: My step/adoptive dad is a pastor. My mom married him when I was 15. They had been having an affair (he was married) for at least a year before that. (Yes, and he's STILL a pastor) He's also fairly verbally/emotionally abusive...he was to me and my brother and still is, in some regard, to my mother. (And it was contagious and made her the same way when I lived at home)
They hate my husband. They've hated him from the start, before they even MET the guy. For this reason, we didn't ask to get married...we informed them that we were getting married. We invited them to the civil ceremony and they refused to come. For the first year of our marriage they refused to even acknowledge it (putting my maiden name on everything for example or referring to DH as "that guy" or worse "that boy") I severed ties for the longest time because of this behavior....and then I got pregnant. Since my pregnancy and birth they want to be part of my life again...but not include my husband. We (DH and I) have both told them, in no uncertain terms, you MUST accept us as a family.

Here's the thing: When I use Scriptural evidence that they must (Matthew 19: 4-6 for example And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who madethem at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.” the response I get (from them and now from my brother who is sucked in to their style of thinking) is "Don't quote Scripture if you can't live the whole book."

That response just baffles me. As far as I know there is not a passage that even eludes to this mentality. The last time my brother said it to me I replied with, "Well then Dad must have a really hard time preaching on Sundays because no one is perfect enough to live the 'whole book.'"

The other thing my mom has started saying is, "It also says to honor your father and mother and we don't feel like you ever did that." That's another, more painful, post topic. Basically, it's hard to honor your abuser YKWIM?


Help me? Maybe some insight, other Scriptures, or anything.

[Sweetmama26]

It also says in the bible to turn the other cheek. Yes you must honor your father and mother, that does not mean they get to rule your life or tell you who you are to marry. God and Jesus did not make us to be hateful, and I think it is extremely hypocritical that your step father is a pastor yet he has broken three of the cardinal rules of christianity, though shalt not commit adultry, judge not lest ye be judge ( Our father in heaven is the only one who has the right to judge, it says in the bible even that it is up to no one but God our heavenly father to judge us and our wrongdoings). And most important of all, to show love to all creation, and love one another.

Sorry you are going through this mama, I'll pray for you and your step father and family to see the light and start showing your family love and kindness and respect.

[AFWife]

Originally Posted by Sweetmama26

It also says in the bible to turn the other cheek. Yes you must honor your father and mother, that does not mean they get to rule your life or tell you who you are to marry. God and Jesus did not make us to be hateful, and I think it is extremely hypocritical that your step father is a pastor yet he has broken three of the cardinal rules of christianity, though shalt not commit adultry, judge not lest ye be judge ( Our father in heaven is the only one who has the right to judge, it says in the bible even that it is up to no one but God our heavenly father to judge us and our wrongdoings). And most important of all, to show love to all creation, and love one another.

Sorry you are going through this mama, I'll pray for you and your step father and family to see the light and start showing your family love and kindness and respect.

Thank you. I appreciate that. I've also pointed out the "love one another" and "turn the other cheek" AND the scripture that says parents shouldn't exasperate their children. *sighs*

Any ideas on what to say to the "live the whole book" comment?

[cappuccinosmom]

What they are trying to do is manipulate you. That's it, simply. They are toxic people, by your description. Sick people do that kind of thing, use what they think we will see as authoritative in order to manipulate others into doing what they want them to do.

Since they themselves seem to have trouble "living by the whole book", what they are doing is the highest order of hypocrisy. They are not doing what they're telling you to do. Stick to your guns...either they are at bare minimum polite and cordial to your husband, or they are not in your life.

I wouldn't play Bible-battle with them. It's pointless. You can honor them to remaining open to reconciliation when they are ready to behave in a healthy way, and by living your life as a decent, honorable human being yourself. To honor parents doesn't mean to kow-tow to their demands no matter how sick or twisted they are.

[AFWife]

Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom

What they are trying to do is manipulate you. That's it, simply. They are toxic people, by your description. Sick people do that kind of thing, use what they think we will see as authoritative in order to manipulate others into doing what they want them to do.

Since they themselves seem to have trouble "living by the whole book", what they are doing is the highest order of hypocrisy. They are not doing what they're telling you to do. Stick to your guns...either they are at bare minimum polite and cordial to your husband, or they are not in your life.

I wouldn't play Bible-battle with them. It's pointless. You can honor them to remaining open to reconciliation when they are ready to behave in a healthy way, and by living your life as a decent, honorable human being yourself. To honor parents doesn't mean to kow-tow to their demands no matter how sick or twisted they are.

I needed this. Thank you.

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

He who is without sin cast the first stone. He obviously dosnt live by the whole book so he has no right to judge someone else. He even broke one of the 10 commandments for crying out loud. Someone like that you cannot reason with.

[Free Thinker]

Here is my advice:

1. Decide if you really want them in your life or not. If not, cut ties and get on w/ life. If you do, go to #2.

2. Decide how much you want to see them, and what you are willing to listen to. From my experience, there is no way to get around listening to church crap, and no matter what I say or do, I know they will never aprove. I have to accept that.

3. Have a way out when you are visiting. If topics come up you don't want to talk about, change the subject or let them have their say and keep quiet. Do NOT ENGAGE!
Do NOT ARGUE! Just drop the subject.

I have accepted taht I will not have the kind of relationship I would have liked w/ my family. They all think I'm bad (I'm an atheist, left their church) and blame my DH. They talk badly about me to my sibblings, and in general are not supportive. I've stopped argueing, stopped defending myself or my actions, just basically stepped back from the issues. THey are still there, but no amount of arguing is going to change the waythey see me, or my DH. Infact not bringing the subject up kinda helps a little bit. We talk about neutral topics. This is the only kind of relationship I am going to have with them. It isnt' what I want, but hey, it's better thannothing at this point. I will say that lately we have been really aggrivated by some things they have done (giving me a DVD that basically calls me a Natzi beacuse I believe in evolution, and a few other things). It makesme really mad, but there is no reasoning with them, so I am dropping it. It's really hard and it hurts me that they could watch this, think it's true, and equate me to that.

I'm really sorry your family does not like your DH. They can make a wedge between the two of you if you let them. Make sure you and DH are on the same page with it all. Your step dad really doesn't Live By the Book anyway. It's a crazy old book full of ancient ideas. It's time to move onto the 21st century and drop it!

[tinybutterfly]

Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom

I wouldn't play Bible-battle with them. It's pointless. You can honor them to remaining open to reconciliation when they are ready to behave in a healthy way, and by living your life as a decent, honorable human being yourself.

This.

There is a great book titled Boundaries by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend. It's a Christian book, so should cover some of the issues you are dealing with.

Also Toxic Parents is another great book. It's by Susan Forward.

I am so sorry you are having to deal with this and very sorry they will not accept your dh.

[Adele_Mommy]

First let me say that your step-father sounds awful and you are absolutely right to insist that he and your mother acknowledge and are respectful to your husband if they want to be part of your life.

However, you ask for Bible-familiar Mamas and for references to scripture. So, here is my opinion: you were married in a civil ceremony, so from the perspective of some religions you are not really married. God did not join you together so the verses from Matthew 19 do not apply to you and your marriage.

Do I personally think you are not really married? Absolutely not! I was married in a civil ceremony myself and I am definitely really married. My point is that I don't think you can use religious scripture to justify why your parents should respect your civil marriage.

I agree with cappuccinosmom and tinybutterfly that there is no point in getting in a "Bible-battle" with your parents. I don't think it is at all likely that you will convince them or show them the error of their ways.

I recommend you just simply and politely maintain the position that if they want to be part of your life they must be respectful of you, your husband, and your marriage. This is your choice and, in my opinion, your right, and you don't need any scripture passages to defend it.

[MissinNYC]

I am an evangelical Christian, and I don't agree that a civil marriage is not a marriage. The Bible never says that marriages need to take place in churches, by pastors (because there actually is no scriptural referece to pastors or to physical churches).

Don't get into a Bible-off with your parents. And this has nothing to do with your fathers's sins, or whatever. This is simple. You are an adult, and you are setting your boundaries, which are to maintain loyalty and respect (and submission, perhaps) to your husband. They must treat your DH with respect, or you must respectfully and gently end the relationship. You can do this in such a way that's respectful of your parents, which is gentle, which is kind, which is loving. But getting into the sandbox with them will not work. There will always be another Scripture reference.

[Sweetmama26]

[QUOTE=MissinNYC;15059054]I am an evangelical Christian, and I don't agree that a civil marriage is not a marriage. The Bible never says that marriages need to take place in churches, by pastors (because there actually is no scriptural referece to pastors or to physical churches).[QUOTE]



This, there is NO WHERE in the bible that says you can not get married in a civil service, God sees all marriages as the same, a man joined as one to a woman.

[AFWife]

For what it's worth, the judge mentioned God during our vows. I don't remember exactly what he said, something like, "In the presence of God and these witnesses" or something. We thought it was great. We wanted to do a big church wedding but that was money we didn't have. And we'd talked about living together but wanted to be married first...a civil ceremony was the easiest option.

and I do think that's part of it...my dad has made faces when I talk about it not being in a church by a pastor.

[mntnmom]

Their behavior has nothing to do with scripture. They are trying to use scripture to justify their behavior. To my knowledge, there is nothing in the Bible to justify toxic, hypocritical manipulation. There is no way to argue with them using the Bible. It sounds like they are rather selective in how they choose to interpret it, and there is no winning.
My family was angry that DH and I eloped, without "asking permission". But they got over it. I suspect your family has more trouble with the fact you are making your own decisions than the details of how you got married. They are trying to control you. Make your decisions and arguments from self respect and love for your husband.

[Comtessa]

Originally Posted by AFWife

Any ideas on what to say to the "live the whole book" comment?

I'd say, "Yeah, ok, no problem. I'll get right on that. I'm throwing out all the shellfish and pork in my kitchen, and after that I'm going into seclusion because I'm on my period. I've already freed all my Hebrew slaves, but I'm looking to buy some Gentiles when I have some extra cash. Any idea where I can get a few? And by the way, after I'm done with that, can we set up an appointment to stone you to death for adultery?"

Nothing sends me over the top like this sort of comment. "Live the whole book," indeed. The "whole book" is not one book at all, it's a collection of dozens of books written by hundreds of people over thousands of years. To "live the whole book" in the modern world is absolutely one hundred percent impossible. And, I might add, often undesirable.

Your insistence that your mother and stepfather respect your marriage if they want contact with your children is absolutely correct. A Bible battle won't lend any more or less weight to that insistence. It's not even about Scripture, it's about basic respect for you as a person. If they can't respect you and your husband, they aren't demonstrating Christian love, and there isn't anything in the Bible that says you should put up with abusive, toxic people just because they say so.

[Adele_Mommy]

Originally Posted by Sweetmama26

This, there is NO WHERE in the bible that says you can not get married in a civil service, God sees all marriages as the same, a man joined as one to a woman.

Hmm. . . well if God really does see civil marriage as exactly the same as religious marriage, then marriage can be between two men or two women as well as between a man and a woman because that is legal in multiple places on this earth.

And before you respond that civil marriage counts as long as it is between a man and a woman, strict Catholic teaching does not allow remarriage after divorce whereas civil marriage and other religions do. If a woman gets divorced and remarried then I think her parents should respect and acknowledge her second husband, but I don't think it works to use scripture as an argument for why they should do that.

Also, according to the Bible, God actually sees marriage as "a man joined to one or more women". Think of Jacob, Leah, and Rachel. But polygamy is illegal in the US. There are religious sects that still practice polygamy today and they have their own ceremonies for marrying people. They respect and honor all the marriages they create even though at least some of them would not be recognized by civil law. Likewise, they do not recognize a civil marriage as a marriage to be honored and respected.

I actually think the joining together of people in a relationship is a sacred thing and I think it should be respected, which is why I feel strongly that my own civil marriage is "real". But I also think two men who are married have a marriage that is just as real and should be respected just as much. I'm obviously not going to quote Bible verses to argue for respecting the marriage of two men (though I bet I could find some! ) and I think it makes just as little sense to use the Bible to defend a civil marriage that happens to meet one of the requirements of a particular Christian religious sect or sects by being between a man and a woman.

[Sweetmama26]

Originally Posted by Adele_Mommy

Hmm. . . well if God really does see civil marriage as exactly the same as religious marriage, then marriage can be between two men or two women as well as between a man and a woman because that is legal in multiple places on this earth.

And before you respond that civil marriage counts as long as it is between a man and a woman, strict Catholic teaching does not allow remarriage after divorce whereas civil marriage and other religions do. If a woman gets divorced and remarried then I think her parents should respect and acknowledge her second husband, but I don't think it works to use scripture as an argument for why they should do that.

Also, according to the Bible, God actually sees marriage as "a man joined to one or more women". Think of Jacob, Leah, and Rachel. But polygamy is illegal in the US. There are religious sects that still practice polygamy today and they have their own ceremonies for marrying people. They respect and honor all the marriages they create even though at least some of them would not be recognized by civil law. Likewise, they do not recognize a civil marriage as a marriage to be honored and respected.

I actually think the joining together of people in a relationship is a sacred thing and I think it should be respected, which is why I feel strongly that my own civil marriage is "real". But I also think two men who are married have a marriage that is just as real and should be respected just as much. I'm obviously not going to quote Bible verses to argue for respecting the marriage of two men (though I bet I could find some! ) and I think it makes just as little sense to use the Bible to defend a civil marriage that happens to meet one of the requirements of a particular Christian religious sect or sects by being between a man and a woman.

It says no where in OPs post that her family are practicing catholics, and don't even get me started on catholics because I don't want to start a religious debate here. I'm not talking about a civil union between a man and a man or woman and woman, I'm talking about an actual marriage. It says no where in the bible that you must be married in a church by a pastor. I don't know any religion besides catholocism that would say that a civil marriage is not Godly. Catholics also agree with annulments doesn't mean they are a legal form of divorce, unless you've not consummated the marriage but they happen regularily in the catholic church.

[smpayne]

I agree with those that say, just skip the Bible quoting - you won't win, even if you are 100% correct, they will find a way to twist it around. There is no answer to "follow the whole book", because it is just a rediculous statement by someone desperate to make you the bad guy.

Don't tell them they have to "accept" your DH, but inform them that any contact with you or baby with be with DH in attendance. They will be required to be civil and polite, the minute they are not, the visit is over. What goes on in thier minds is their business, what is important at this point is their behavior. While they may not see it this way, the choice is now all theirs to make. In this way you will be honoring them by giving them the choice to behave properly or not (of course they will never see it this way, but you will know it in your heart).

Meet in neutral locations, resturant, park, etc. A lunch or shopping trip with just mom might be ok, but if she is negative and disrespectful of your DH, it is time to go home. Don't let them gang up on you. One on one with mom might be fine, but if anyone else is there make sure DH is also there.

Do you have another pastor you and DH can speak with about this to help you emotionally distance yourself from the abuse and manipulation? If there is a time when they can bring themselves to be civil to at least outwardly accept your DH, there will probably always be moments when they slip and the digs and nasty comments will re-appear.

They are obviously not displaying behavior we would expect from Christians, much less a pastor, it reminds me of Christ's descriptions of the Pharasees.

[zech13_9_goforgold]

Please remember that God is not like your father. Just because your father claims to speak for God doesn't mean that he is God.

I also second those books, "Boundaries" and "Toxic Parents."

Are you attending a religous fellowship now? Have you asked your pastor/priest/? what s/he thinks you should do? Perhaps s/he could mediate between you and your family and help them understand that they need to buzz off.

[AFWife]

Originally Posted by Sweetmama26

It says no where in OPs post that her family are practicing catholics

We aren't. My parents are Methodist and DH and I are mostly Assembly of God

Originally Posted by zech13_9_goforgold

Please remember that God is not like your father. Just because your father claims to speak for God doesn't mean that he is God.

I also second those books, "Boundaries" and "Toxic Parents."

Are you attending a religous fellowship now? Have you asked your pastor/priest/? what s/he thinks you should do? Perhaps s/he could mediate between you and your family and help them understand that they need to buzz off.

Thank you. That was the hardest thing to overcome for me to come back to Christianity. We're still searching for a church home right now. My parents don't do well with mediation unless it's someone that they pick that will just back them up. We've had mediated convos before and as soon as the mediator starts to side with me they clam up and try to end the session.

[Shami]

Regarding the 'live the whole book' comment:
In one of Paul's epistles, he says to live Christ. He also says, for to me to live is Christ. And another, Christ lives in you. Christ in you the hope of glory.

You cannot change your parents, but Christ can. Go to the Lord every time you feel bothered by them and pray. Pray for mercy that God's will be done in your relationship. I don't know if God wants to restore your relationship or cut it off, but He knows. If He wants to restore it, He can do it. He is the only one who can do this. You cannot work this out. What is impossible with man is possible with God. So feel the freedom of taking your hands off and letting go. Say amen to the Lord's arrangement in your life and you will feel free of it.

Your responsibility is to follow the Lord and your husband. You are one with your husband and he is your head now. The Lord can really bless your marriage if you are really one on every matter.

Sorry I didn't put the verse ref. because it is late and I didn't feel like getting up to find my Bible. I can find them later if you want me to.

Pray with your husband and ask the Lord to lead you in how much time to spend with them. One of the previous posters gave some very good advice about meeting in neutral places and setting some boundaries. Include the Lord in what ever you do. The Lord lives in you and you have His presence at all times, just tap into to it by calling on His precious Name, Lord Jesus.

Even while you are with your parents, you can be inwardly calling on the Lord Jesus. Ask Him to fill you with His Spirit. You may have a very sweet experience of the Lord this way. Outwardly things may be hostile, but inwardly you will have peace and rest. Paul went through imprisonments and beatings, but if you read Philippians he says rejoice in the Lord always and again i say rejoice.

The civil ceremony takes care of the law of the land. So you are def. married, if that was even a question. The marriage ceremony done amongst the believers is just for the sake of the testimony that you are married and takes care of the people so they know you are married and not just living together. No where in the Bible does it say that you have to be married by a pastor to make it a done deal. In the New Testament in one or more of the gospels, not sure, there is a wedding. There the Lord turned the water into wine. This is the only wedding. In Ephesians and in Revelation, Christ gets His bride, the church. Hallelujah! This is the real wedding!