Baby teeth spacing

[avent]

I've seen a lot of threads on various boards re: gaps between baby teeth (esp the top front) but I'm worried about the fact that my DS5 (almost 6) has no space between any of his top teeth. (He does have space between his bottom teeth.) They are straight but they are all touching adjacent teeth, all the way down the side of each tooth. And they tilt inward a bit. (The bottom row does not do this.) The top row almost completely covers the bottom one in an overbite. None of his teeth are loose yet.

To me this means there isn't going to be room for his permanent upper teeth, right? Or has anyone had a different experience?

We followed a WAP diet for 4 years and now we do GAPS, but we didn't start until he was 17 months old, after a lot of the dental infrastructure was formed. My diet during the pregnancy was fine by American standards, but deficient by traditional ones.

Any ideas? Anything else I can do? Or should I not worry? He's never had any cavities despite being a lazy brusher, or other dental problems like broken teeth or thin enamel, so maybe the nutrition is adequate?)

Thanks.

[crunchy_mama]

That is my worry w/ my almost 3 y.o. . I am starting some specific nutrition intervention for her to hope to remedy this. I am interested in this as well

[avent]

Yeah, it was my worry too, and I did the WAP thing but now that DS is almost 6 I'm not sure what I'm looking for. The teeth looked very tightly spaced to me, at least on top.

Have you seen any changes?

A friend of mine started intensive WAP and her daughter's permanent teeth came in right in front of her baby teeth, which didn't fall out naturally because the new teeth were in front on the old ones and didn't push the old ones out. We were speculating that the arch had widened and caused that.

[JaneS]

C'mon over to the thread where I am putting links on palate expansion right now:

Questioning merits of orthodontia
http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1186144

We also do WAPF but realize that we will probably need some intervention still (my DS is 6 as well). I had braces and tooth extraction and I never want that for my son after reading about the drawbacks.

[mommy2maya]

I am speculating that teeth spacing has more to do with genetics. More specifically, marriages between people who have vastly different nationalities. Before globalization, and really, the USA, people didn't really marry out of their nationality, which, typically, have similar facial features. Once you start mixing genetics, you get genes for bigger teeth, smaller teeth, wider jaws, narrower jaws, etc. There is nothing to say that you are going to get matching teeth and jaws, and I really don't think that any amount of eating is going to fix that .

[JaneS]

Mommy2maya,

That might seem like a logical argument but Weston Price, DDS travelled the world for a decade proving that theory wrong. The cause is modern food... less nutrients mean the body is built with less building blocks than it needs to fulfill it's genetic potential. Traditional people eating their natural diets contained 10x the amount of fat soluble vitamins and 5x minerals and water soluble vitamins to consistently produce wide palates perfectly spaced to fit all of their teeth. When certain families moved to the city and/or started eating modern processed foods, younger members of the same family exhibited marked facial changes.

The first thing it compromises is the facial bones, specifically the width of the palate and the middle third of the face. See links at the thread I posted above and the "WAPF fed" link in my sig.

[mommy2maya]

Originally Posted by JaneS

Mommy2maya,

That might seem like a logical argument but Weston Price, DDS travelled the world for a decade proving that theory wrong. The cause is modern food... less nutrients mean the body is built with less building blocks than it needs to fulfill it's genetic potential. Traditional people eating their natural diets contained 10x the amount of fat soluble vitamins and 5x minerals and water soluble vitamins to consistently produce wide palates perfectly spaced to fit all of their teeth. When certain families moved to the city and/or started eating modern processed foods, younger members of the same family exhibited marked facial changes.

The first thing it compromises is the facial bones, specifically the width of the palate and the middle third of the face. See links at the thread I posted above and the "WAPF fed" link in my sig.

I'd love to see studies that show this that have not been funded by the WAPF foundation, in peer reviewed literature. As far as my research has gone, there is none. Without substantiated evidence, I have to believe that the scientifically backed up genetic mingling is the cause.

[MyLilPwny]

Originally Posted by mommy2maya

I'd love to see studies that show this that have not been funded by the WAPF foundation, in peer reviewed literature. As far as my research has gone, there is none. Without substantiated evidence, I have to believe that the scientifically backed up genetic mingling is the cause.

This would never be found in peer reviewed literature because it would harm the food processing industry's profits. Here is the book "Nutrition and Physical Degneration" which was published in the 1930s when there were civilizations around the world who ate their traditional foods. http://www.journeytoforever.org/farm.../pricetoc.html It is the full book including photographs of people from all around the world. The photographs show families with older siblings who ate their culture's traditional foods and the younger siblings who ate processed foods. You can see the narrowed facial structure in the younger siblings. This narrowed facial structure never happened before when the civilizations ate their traditional foods, as shown in the photographs. Genetics cannot be responsible for the narrowed facial structure seen in the younger siblings. The only difference between them and the older siblings in what they ate. Weston A Price Foundation did not fund this---the foundation was set up many decades after this book was published in order to commemorate this research.

[claddaghmom]

Does he have an undiagnosed tongue tie? That is what was blamed on my narrow spacing. I wore an extension plate for 5 years. It didn't do anything sadly. (sad that I wasted 5 years, lol, I don't mind my teeth at all)

But I wonder if doing it in childhood would work better?

[avent]

Originally Posted by mommy2maya

I'd love to see studies that show this that have not been funded by the WAPF foundation, in peer reviewed literature. As far as my research has gone, there is none. Without substantiated evidence, I have to believe that the scientifically backed up genetic mingling is the cause.

The foundation is very new relative to Dr. Price's research, which was from the 1930s and which he funded himself. Have you read his book? It's actually quite scientific, not just the photos but the arch measurements and data re: dental caries. His research is exactly what you're asking for, scientific, well-documented, and not funded by any agency or organization.

[avent]

Originally Posted by claddaghmom

Does he have an undiagnosed tongue tie? That is what was blamed on my narrow spacing. I wore an extension plate for 5 years. It didn't do anything sadly. (sad that I wasted 5 years, lol, I don't mind my teeth at all)

But I wonder if doing it in childhood would work better?

He wasn't a great nurser (which is one of the reasons I found WAPF, looking for answers) and during that time a doctor said he was not tongue-tied. Thanks for the idea, though.

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by avent

The foundation is very new relative to Dr. Price's research, which was from the 1930s and which he funded himself. Have you read his book? It's actually quite scientific, not just the photos but the arch measurements and data re: dental caries. His research is exactly what you're asking for, scientific, well-documented, and not funded by any agency or organization.

Exactly. And he has impeccable credentials... he was actually the head of research for the American Dental Association of his day, well versed in the scientific method.

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by avent

He wasn't a great nurser (which is one of the reasons I found WAPF, looking for answers) and during that time a doctor said he was not tongue-tied. Thanks for the idea, though.

Mouth breathing is also highly correlated to an underdeveloped upper palate. Some of the links I posted in the other thread talks about this. It is due to the action of the tongue pressing against the palate and enabling its optimal development when the mouth is closed and breathing creates a suction.

[tanyalynn]

Originally Posted by avent

He wasn't a great nurser (which is one of the reasons I found WAPF, looking for answers) and during that time a doctor said he was not tongue-tied. Thanks for the idea, though.

It may be worthwhile to look into this further. Like most health things I've run across for us (me and the kids I mean), there's normal/healthy, bad-enough-for-a-diagnosis, and this big grey space in between. My kids and I fall into the grey area all.the.time. It may truly not be an issue, but you may look at the issue more critically, and with higher standards of "normal/healthy" than that doctor did.

It was only reading about tongue ties for my son that I realized that *I* have a tongue tie, I really do not have normal tongue mobility. I've gotten through 34 years like this, so it's not terribly bad, but it's not normal/healthy, and I have to wonder if my crowded lower teeth might have been a bit less so if it had been clipped early on.

[JaneS]

Oh great, now I think I have a tongue tie too, is there not supposed to be any stringy thing at the base?

[tanyalynn]

I think it has more to do with mobility than what the connection under the tongue looks like.

Anterior is easier to tell... stick your tongue out all the way, if it's flat on the end or slightly heart-shaped, it's somewhat tied. DD's tongue sticks out like a spear... I'm using her as an example since I was surprised that she met none of the criteria I've ever read for TT (surprised given she's my kid).... my tongue rolls down when I stick it out, if I stick it out straight (level) it's a lot shorter, again, it's anchored too close to and/or too tight at the front of the tongue and cannot extend completely AND stay level to the ground.

Lift your tongue up, people are actually supposed to be able to open their mouths and touch the top of their mouths with their tongues. I was shocked, but DH and DD can. No one in my family has ever been able to do that.

I tried to clarify below, but let me do it again. I'm using this in order to search for answers to problems I see. If I had a kid with good dental spacing, no speech or oral issues, without breathing/snoring-type issues, I doubt I'd care if something seemed somewhat off wrt TT. Understanding the potential mobility of the human tongue is a useful bit of knowledge, just so it can inform the decision-making process.

There's also some ability to turn your tongue side to side, sort of rolling it--I don't know how to quantify that, but I was shocked when I realized DS could barely lift the edges of his tongue, it was/is quite anchored laterally. We've done stretching exercises to help with this (since I was concerned about his enunciation and a speech evaluator agreed), and that has helped.

I think HCPs are more strict in how/when they'll say a TT is causing issues, and I think TT can exist to some extent (since it really seems a spectrum of how/where the tongue is too tightly anchored to the bottom of the mouth), but for me, understanding what _should_ be possible has been helpful in evaluating potential causes of problems I see. I do feel that sometimes doctors can say it's fine when really they do not have enough information to make that decision (our situation). Make sense?

[JaneS]

So if you open your mouth all the way you should be able to touch the roof of your mouth with your tongue?

I definately have TT which of course b/c I have a small palate too. And other evidence of vitamin A deficiency (needed glasses at age 7). Vitamin A controls midline issues right?

[JaneS]

OMG this is the cause of several cousins' kids' speech issues!!!

Now how to bring THAT up at Easter...

[tanyalynn]

Pretty much all the way open, I mean, DD wasn't trying to fit a tennis ball in her mouth, but her mouth was plenty open for me to, say, see how her new molars are coming in.

Maybe it's a blessing that I live far away from family (my side of the family, I mean).

VitA and folate, and I have a hard time telling which is a bigger issue for us. The MTHFR gene variant isn't an issue in our family, best I can tell, but since folate's used for detoxification, maybe that's part of things for us... I _know_ DS was low in vitA.

There was a really interesting topic in H&H about eyesight--I ran across something later about zinc and near-sightedness, they were fiddling with some sort of rodent, I think, but it was interesting. Guess who needed glasses not long after her amalgams were placed?

I need to take this to PM....