I don't even want to be around DS - HELP!

[my_baby_love]

I am at the end of my rope today, and most other days, with DS. He is three years old, and I know his age has a lot to do with his behavior, but lately his behavior has been rude and disrespectful and he fights with me on EVERYTHING. Today I was in tears over his behavior and I feel like I am not doing anything right. DH keeps suggesting that we just spank him , but we both don't really think that is the right thing to do.

I have read so many parenting books and tried so many different approaches on how to deal with him. He is spirited and very verbal. Most approaches work for a few days, and then things are back to normal.

For example, today he wakes up and tells me, "Mom, I TOLD YOU, make me pancakes for breakfast." I asked him to rephrase it more nicely because we use nice words in our house. He says, "But Mom, I TOLD YOU TO." I feel like he needs to eat to not be cranky, but I also feel unwilling to let him speak to me that way and still get pancakes. So what to do?

Then later in the bathroom while I was getting ready, he was messing around with some of my things and I told him I was worried they would break, so please put them down and find something else to look at. He completely ignored me, so I put my hands on his shoulders and asked again while attempting to make eye contact. He twisted away from me and continued. I told him since he was having problems putting my things down I was going to help him and I gently took the things away and put them out of reach. Then he went out into my bedroom and broke a lamp (threw it on the floor) because he was mad at me. I didn't even know how to react to that so I just made him sit on the bed while I cleaned up the broken glass.

Then it continued with fighting me over lunch (he wanted clam chowder and we have recently eliminated dairy), fighting over whether we got to stop and get our usual treat on the way home from mom's group, running away when it was time to get ready to go to bed, hitting dad, and purposefully tripping his little brother.

Today was worse than many, but every day lately is some version of this. I am starting to feel like my whole approach is wrong and I don't know what to do. I love the IDEA of gentle, respectful parenting, but isn't it supposed to produce better results? I mean, this kid still co-sleeps, was breastfed on demand, was worn constantly, watches very little TV, and is never hit. I know I could be a bit more consistent with my discipline (I sometimes feel like I have too many tools for certain situations and can't decide which to use), but I'm working on it. Ultimately, I can't handle being treated so disrespectfully and rudely but I also don't want to be a completely authoritarian parent. Honestly, I don't even like being around him lately and I hate that. I love him dearly, but I don't like how angry he makes me. Please help!

[ThoughtFullMama]

I'm reading Unconditional Parenting right now. Not sure if the approaches in it would work for a child that young, but it's a great read either way. It takes all the parenting 'ideas' and gets down to the nitty-gritty of how people actually ARE and what children really need. If anything, it will change how you see behaviors, which is important, IMHO. It has really helped me!

[my_baby_love]

Originally Posted by ThoughtFullMama

I'm reading Unconditional Parenting right now. Not sure if the approaches in it would work for a child that young, but it's a great read either way. It takes all the parenting 'ideas' and gets down to the nitty-gritty of how people actually ARE and what children really need. If anything, it will change how you see behaviors, which is important, IMHO. It has really helped me!

Thanks for the suggestion. I read UP when he was much younger (6 months or so), but maybe I need to read it again. I have been trying to do more unconditional parenting (trying to do more time-ins not time-outs for example) but it is quite possible I could use a refresher on it. Thanks!

[kiwiva]

I have an active very verbal 3 yo DD so I'm right there with you. We have some of the same around here, with DD it's "I said..." as if bc she said it it has to be so, regardless of what I am saying. She hasn't gone off and smashed anything like the lamp but she will start dumping stuff all over or something else that drives me insane.

So I don't have a magical solution, of course. I remind myself she is 3. Though we have some of those days, she really is a great kid. AP is for the long term. No spanking will not "cure" make these days go away, as you know.

I repeat what I said and let her know that I did, in fact, hear what she said but that would not be what we are doing. I try to model respectful language to her. If she is rude to me, I remind her to ask nicely and reword her response. I read UP a long time ago, also need to reread it too. Have you read Playful Parenting? That's good, sometimes it is helpful to make something into a game to break the current vibe. Another book that I liked and is good for any age is How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk. It's about getting empowering the kids for cooperation.

There is nothing wrong with having a lot of different tools to use, unless their goals are really not on the same page. Consistency is really helpful.

Sometimes I really dislike 3. I have also noticed that the more unnerved I am the more oppositional DD will be. The days that I just need a clean house are the days she absolutely must have every single toy out everywhere. When I have less to give to DD, she is needier and the way that is expressed is through rudeness or other challenging behavior. Do you think there is any of that going on? If so, maybe finding a strategy to keep your cool may be helpful. I try to stop what I am doing and give her a bunch of time if we start going down that unpleasant road (though that's not always possible).

This too shall pass, I know that's cliche. But on some of those days, I remind myself about any one of the previous stages that felt hopeless with behaviors that would never end. They did, so I try to put the current challenge into that perspective. It's ongoing.

[Karamom]

My ds is 3 and says "I told you!!!" all the time also. I finally realized that he was coping me. When he doesn't do something I ask I tend to say "I told you to do such and such!" So now I try to really watch my words and make sure I am being respectful to him. He still can be disrespectful to me sometimes but not as often and I know if I'm modeling that behavior that's what he will do.

With the pancake situation I would just say "I will get you some pancakes but next time I would like you to ask me in a nicer way." That way he knows I am unhappy with the way he spoke to me but I don't force him to say please or anything before I get it or it just becomes a power struggle.

[tbone_kneegrabber]

Originally Posted by Karamom

My ds is 3 and says "I told you!!!" all the time also. I finally realized that he was coping me. When he doesn't do something I ask I tend to say "I told you to do such and such!" So now I try to really watch my words and make sure I am being respectful to him. He still can be disrespectful to me sometimes but not as often and I know if I'm modeling that behavior that's what he will do.

With the pancake situation I would just say "I will get you some pancakes but next time I would like you to ask me in a nicer way." That way he knows I am unhappy with the way he spoke to me but I don't force him to say please or anything before I get it or it just becomes a power struggle.

Yeah that's what I was thinking. I find when I hear my words coming out of ds' mouth sometimes they make me crazy. For instance "try" I'll ask him to "try" and do something first (instead of me doing it for him). Then later he will demand that I "try" to do something that I don't want to do!

Usually I just repeat what he said they was I wish he said it "Can we have pancakes for breakfast please?" "Why yes dear, and you can help me make them." And then he usually repeats what I just said without me asking him.

Also I feel like with "I told you" he might feel like he did ask nice (enough) and you didn't respond to him. I know a lot of kids who get rather irate when they say something and people don't respond INSTANTANEOUSLY they feel totally unheard.

Not that you and your ds should have the same rules (as you are not the same person), but he TOLD you to make pancakes and *you* didn't. You TOLD him to stop playing with your stuff and *he* didn't. In his mind those situations may be way more similar than they are to us as grown ups you know?

[sweetpeppers]

I really like the ideas behind the continuum concept. There is a great article here. After I read that and other articles like that, things really started to change for us.
Things got even better when I started helping my son (he just turned 3) to go to bed earlier. I really enjoyed the book The Seven O'Clock Bedtime. Even though, we will never have a rigid bedtime like that.
I also like the Waldorf ideas about discipline and the small child. They say that a child under seven is living in their body, so giving commands and talking discipline doesn't really get to them, because they aren't in their heads the way older people are. I am not explaining that well, but The Parenting Passageway blog has lots of great posts about how to redirect and engage the child's body when you are trying to teach them.

I hope some of that helps. My son is three so I understand what you are going through. s

[D_McG]

I am at one end of the GD spectrum (I think not the end you want to be at) but IMHO you're accepting too much, using too many words and not setting high enough expectations/limits.

The pancakes: "This morning is not starting well" I would walk him back to his room and tell him to come back out hen he was ready to speak nicely to me. If it carried on for much longer then pancakes would definitely not be on the menu that day.

Messing w/your stuff: "Please stop" and then if he didn't then physically remove him from there. "I see you're having trouble listening".

Breaking the lamp: I'd freak out. That's the truth. Certainly any fun thing planned for the next hour or so would be off the agenda.

DS is 3.5 and I've tried a bunch of things. Kind, firm simple limits has done wonders for us.

[my_baby_love]

Thanks for all the feedback. Parenting can be so tough and it's so nice to have a community to turn to .

I agree that some of the things he says to me are probably things that come out of my mouth sometimes. Oops. I know I need to watch what I say a bit better.

Originally Posted by sweetpeppers

I really like the ideas behind the continuum concept. There is a great article here. After I read that and other articles like that, things really started to change for us.
Things got even better when I started helping my son (he just turned 3) to go to bed earlier. I really enjoyed the book The Seven O'Clock Bedtime.

I am not explaining that well, but The Parenting Passageway blog has lots of great posts about how to redirect and engage the child's body when you are trying to teach them.

I actually used many of the ideas from the continuum concept over the summer with varying degrees of success. We have an early bedtime (6:30 to 7:30 is generally when he falls asleep), and I agree that it worked wonders for us too. Thanks for the other blog link. I will have to look into it more.

Originally Posted by D_McG

I am at one end of the GD spectrum (I think not the end you want to be at) but IMHO you're accepting too much, using too many words and not setting high enough expectations/limits.

The pancakes: "This morning is not starting well" I would walk him back to his room and tell him to come back out hen he was ready to speak nicely to me. If it carried on for much longer then pancakes would definitely not be on the menu that day.

Messing w/your stuff: "Please stop" and then if he didn't then physically remove him from there. "I see you're having trouble listening".

Breaking the lamp: I'd freak out. That's the truth. Certainly any fun thing planned for the next hour or so would be off the agenda.

DS is 3.5 and I've tried a bunch of things. Kind, firm simple limits has done wonders for us.

I actually completely agree with a lot of what you suggested. Like I said, I feel like sometimes I try too much to do the "right" things that I have read about in so many books when really I just need to be firm and set some solid limits. Thanks for the reminder .

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by my_baby_love

I actually completely agree with a lot of what you suggested. Like I said, I feel like sometimes I try too much to do the "right" things that I have read about in so many books when really I just need to be firm and set some solid limits. Thanks for the reminder .

It's been a journey for me. Things that sound good on paper just didn't translate well in the home. It was just too MUCH for DS. He's only 3. He really just doesn't have the capacity to grasp it all.

I'm a reforming yeller and part of that has been really assuming a leadership position. I wake up every day and remind myself that I am going to help my son succeed. And that means that I don't tolerate disrespect from EITHER of us. I want both of us to be proud of our days. And lately, we mostly are.

Good luck!

[Belia]

Originally Posted by tbone_kneegrabber

Not that you and your ds should have the same rules (as you are not the same person), but he TOLD you to make pancakes and *you* didn't. You TOLD him to stop playing with your stuff and *he* didn't. In his mind those situations may be way more similar than they are to us as grown ups you know?

Wow. That's really thought provoking. There's probably a lot of truth to that.

[crunchymomofmany]

Through the years, I've learned a lot of things and tbone_kneegrabber (I'm very curious about your username, btw) is right on. I have found that my kids are often repeating back to me behaviors or words I myself have said.

I once slapped Matthew's hand in response to him hitting someone else (uh, duh?) - I immediately apologized and felt just terrible and stupid!

I was recently at a playgroup, where a wonderful mom of a 3 year old (and I've always said that 2 is way easier than 3), was irate with her boy because he wasn't listening and then put him in time-out and told me how she "demands" respect. I found the behavior a little hypocritical to her self-professed Waldorf style of parenting, but what do you say? I watched and smiled to myself, thinking about my oldest when he turned, 14...15...16...17... and just thought - "OMG, you have no idea."

I am not anti-discipline. I think every child, at an age-appropriate level can understand some basic rules and can sit down and chill if things are getting out of control. I have found that things get done better when I speak in a quiet voice as opposed to yelling. In fact, the quieter I get the better behaved the kids are.

Kids can be tough, but looking at the kids coming up behind my oldest, I know that my change of tack in the discipline area has helped. My oldest always felt entitled and tried to get away with so much - as I've become more firm, more consistent and quieter, a lot of that has changed.

Good luck!

[NellieKatz]

I found a good book the other day called The Family Virtues Guide ...very helpful in that it teaches a way that the 52 virtues named in the book can be learned by all family members (not just the kids) and suggests gentle respectful ways of teaching and modeling those virtues.

I needed that because coming from an authoritarian upbringing but not wanting the same for my child, I really needed a guide like this to help. I have also been influenced by Unconditional Parenting, and also found that Kids, Parents and Power Struggles by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka was great. Also Between Parent and Child by Haim Ginott. And anything by John Holt but especially How Children Learn was very important with us because it helped us understand a lot of WHY kids do certain things as they figure out the world around them.

It always helps when an author helps ME to see things through my child's eyes.

Once you start looking at it as preserving the connection and the relationship vs. being right and getting obedience (i.e. an adversarial position), things change. We are struggling through it right now, and having some success.

Best of luck!

[my_baby_love]

Originally Posted by NellieKatz

I found a good book the other day called The Family Virtues Guide ...very helpful in that it teaches a way that the 52 virtues named in the book can be learned by all family members (not just the kids) and suggests gentle respectful ways of teaching and modeling those virtues.

I needed that because coming from an authoritarian upbringing but not wanting the same for my child, I really needed a guide like this to help. I have also been influenced by Unconditional Parenting, and also found that Kids, Parents and Power Struggles by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka was great. Also Between Parent and Child by Haim Ginott. And anything by John Holt but especially How Children Learn was very important with us because it helped us understand a lot of WHY kids do certain things as they figure out the world around them.

It always helps when an author helps ME to see things through my child's eyes.

Once you start looking at it as preserving the connection and the relationship vs. being right and getting obedience (i.e. an adversarial position), things change. We are struggling through it right now, and having some success.

Best of luck!

The only one of these books I have read is UP, but I have heard good things about the virtues guide. Thanks for the suggestions. They will go on my library list.

[starlein26]

1. Limit power struggles. (I would not let the way he says he wants pancakes rile me up, for example.)

2. Offer PLENTY of hands-on readily accessible activities (playdough, markers/paper, paint, water/sand play, stickers, tracing, collage activities...) so that when he feels bored, he doesn't go after your things.

[PinkCedar]

Originally Posted by tbone_kneegrabber

Not that you and your ds should have the same rules (as you are not the same person), but he TOLD you to make pancakes and *you* didn't. You TOLD him to stop playing with your stuff and *he* didn't. In his mind those situations may be way more similar than they are to us as grown ups you know?

Originally Posted by D_McG

I am at one end of the GD spectrum (I think not the end you want to be at) but IMHO you're accepting too much, using too many words and not setting high enough expectations/limits.

The pancakes: "This morning is not starting well" I would walk him back to his room and tell him to come back out hen he was ready to speak nicely to me. If it carried on for much longer then pancakes would definitely not be on the menu that day.

Messing w/your stuff: "Please stop" and then if he didn't then physically remove him from there. "I see you're having trouble listening".

Breaking the lamp: I'd freak out. That's the truth. Certainly any fun thing planned for the next hour or so would be off the agenda.

DS is 3.5 and I've tried a bunch of things. Kind, firm simple limits has done wonders for us.

Originally Posted by my_baby_love

I actually completely agree with a lot of what you suggested. Like I said, I feel like sometimes I try too much to do the "right" things that I have read about in so many books when really I just need to be firm and set some solid limits. Thanks for the reminder .

And it is so different for each child. I have four children.

For a couple of them, I can be completely gentle. Like uber sweet roses gentle. "That isn't nice sweetie." "Oh, ok mommy, I'm sorry, can I help you?." Uh-huh.

But for a couple, they need a firmer hand. One even needs *gasp* timeouts!

Some children/people just push harder. These ones need to be treated with firmer boundaries.

Others are very empathetic, and naturally understand people well. They rarely need any boundaries, because the thought of crossing a boundary is not even on their spectrum.

Breaking the lamp was unacceptable. *Not* normal 3 year old behavior. That is a child who knows he can get away with anything, and is willing to abuse you, simply because he can.

You need to make it clear that you will not be treated like this.

Modeling isn't enough for some kids. I cannot say why.

I always model the same behavior. I have kids that follow my lead, and others that I had to tell to say please and thank you, and hitting wasn't acceptable, and calling names wasn't nice.

Do you and your husband use different approaches? That can be a handful for some kids. Some children need a lot of consistency.

[MamaHappy]

My responses are in red.

Originally Posted by my_baby_love

I am at the end of my rope today, and most other days, with DS. He is three years old, and I know his age has a lot to do with his behavior, but lately his behavior has been rude and disrespectful and he fights with me on EVERYTHING. Today I was in tears over his behavior and I feel like I am not doing anything right. DH keeps suggesting that we just spank him , but we both don't really think that is the right thing to do.

I have read so many parenting books and tried so many different approaches on how to deal with him. He is spirited and very verbal. Most approaches work for a few days, and then things are back to normal.

For example, today he wakes up and tells me, "Mom, I TOLD YOU, make me pancakes for breakfast." I asked him to rephrase it more nicely because we use nice words in our house. He says, "But Mom, I TOLD YOU TO." I feel like he needs to eat to not be cranky, but I also feel unwilling to let him speak to me that way and still get pancakes. So what to do?
I would remind him it's not polite to talk to mama that way and I would NOT make him pancakes until he asked nicely. I wouldn't care if it took all morning, I wouldn't back down. Then when he DID ask nicely, I would smile and happily make the pancakes.

Then later in the bathroom while I was getting ready, he was messing around with some of my things and I told him I was worried they would break, so please put them down and find something else to look at. He completely ignored me, so I put my hands on his shoulders and asked again while attempting to make eye contact. He twisted away from me and continued. I told him since he was having problems putting my things down I was going to help him and I gently took the things away and put them out of reach. Then he went out into my bedroom and broke a lamp (threw it on the floor) because he was mad at me. I didn't even know how to react to that so I just made him sit on the bed while I cleaned up the broken glass.

Okay, going back to when you asked him to put down your things and he just ignored you. Not okay, IMO. This is disrespectful. The next time this happens, I would only ask once. Then if he ignored me, I would have given him two choices....he can put down your things like you asked and stay in the room with you or he can leave the room. If he still refused to put down your things, I would have phyically taken them from him and had him leave. And I would have most definitely had him help you clean up that broken lamp. Every last bit.

Then it continued with fighting me over lunch (he wanted clam chowder and we have recently eliminated dairy), fighting over whether we got to stop and get our usual treat on the way home from mom's group, running away when it was time to get ready to go to bed, hitting dad, and purposefully tripping his little brother.

Again, try giving him choices. "We can't have clam chowder, but you can have a sandwich or chicken nuggets. Which would you like?" If he won't make the choice, then just make it for him. He can chose whether to eat or not. Some kids just really need firm boundaries and consequences, IMO. You can't give him a choice for EVERYTHING and sometimes he'll just have to accept a "No". Hitting, tripping, etc. are unacceptable behaviors IMO and there needs to be consequences for those things.

Today was worse than many, but every day lately is some version of this. I am starting to feel like my whole approach is wrong and I don't know what to do. I love the IDEA of gentle, respectful parenting, but isn't it supposed to produce better results? I mean, this kid still co-sleeps, was breastfed on demand, was worn constantly, watches very little TV, and is never hit. I know I could be a bit more consistent with my discipline (I sometimes feel like I have too many tools for certain situations and can't decide which to use), but I'm working on it.
You can be gentle and respectful but still be firm with your boundaries. Be very clear on what is and is not appropiate behavior. Acknowledge his feelings and give lots of hugs and kisses. One thing I find helpful is when I tell one of my kids something they CAN'T do, I try to follow up with something they CAN do. "No, you can't hit the dog, but you can pet him gently like this."

Ultimately, I can't handle being treated so disrespectfully and rudely but I also don't want to be a completely authoritarian parent. Honestly, I don't even like being around him lately and I hate that. I love him dearly, but I don't like how angry he makes me. Please help!
Being a gentle, respectful parent doesn't mean allowing your kids to be disrespectful to you (or anyone else for that matter). It's our job as parents to teach our kids right from wrong! Show him the right way to treat you (and others) and behave and have a consisent and fair consequence when doesn't. Don't worry, you're doing great!

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by MamaHappy

Being a gentle, respectful parent doesn't mean allowing your kids to be disrespectful to you (or anyone else for that matter). It's our job as parents to teach our kids right from wrong! Show him the right way to treat you (and others) and behave and have a consisent and fair consequence when doesn't. Don't worry, you're doing great!

Agree. I am reminded of an analogy I read once about young children. To be a young child is like being in a dark room, feeling for the walls. YOU show him where the walls (boundaries) are. That's your job as a parent. Their job is to keep on feeling (pushing/exploring).

[mamazee]

The age where their language is good but their social graces are nil is a hard age for me. When they talk rudely, they use words as well as an adult, and it is really easy to assume adult motivations. He doesn't necessarily mean to be rude, but he does need to learn how to speak politely, and this is he kind of place where this happens. I would definitely instruct him on how to talk to you, but i would approach it as someone who needs to learn how to be polite instad of as though he's someone who is choosing to be rude. I always try to assume the best reasonably likely motivation instead of the worst.

[my_baby_love]

MamaHappy and D_McG, thank you so much for your feedback. It really rang true with me this morning. And thanks to the other mamas for the things you have said as well. I am working on having much clearer boundaries that are enforced VERY consistently. We have had a few good days in a row now.