talk to me about paganism

[shanniesue2]

I'm know there is A LOT of variation and that makes this a fairly broad question. But I've felt a leaning toward the divine feminine and what I would call earth based spirituality (although I'm not sure that people who actually practice earth based spiritualiy would agree with my usage of that term). And I've done a little bit of searching on the internet, but I feel like there is SO MUCH out there... I'm not really sure where/how to begin... some of what I've found doesn't really resonate with me... and I'd kind of like to find a group that I can explore some of my ideas with (I tend to process ideas externally in conversation better than I do internally). But when I started searching for pagan groups in my area, well I'm still really confused. I don't want to join a coven or anything... and I'm not really sure about attending a circle (I don't even know what happens in a circle). I guess I just want to learn more and figure out where I fit in.

Is there anyone who can give me some direction in this?

[honey-lilac]

You might want to check out meetup.com to see if there are any study groups in your area that center on goddess spirituality, ecospirituality, etc. - that sort of thing.

[wombatclay]

There are a lot of threads here at mdc you might want to browse, including a pagan resource thread here.

You're right that there is a huge variety of paths under the general "Pagan Umbrella". You may want to see if you can narrow down your focus a bit before looking for a real world group. Although it's older, Margot Alder's book Drawing Down the Moon provides a quick overview of many different Pagan paths. It'll get you up to speed on the terminology and options out there.

Chas Clifton's book The Paganism Reader is one of my favorites. It's not a "how to" book, but instead a collection of academic/scholarly articles by well known Pagans. It covers a lot of ground, explores the history of various Pagan paths as well as modern variations, and is often used in college level courses on religion. The book isn't cheap though so do see if your library has it (or can get it through interlibrary loan).

And from the comfort of home, you may want to explore

pantheism (the divine and the manifest universe are one and the same)
panentheism (the divine and the manifest universe are one and the same but the divine also exists outside of the manifest universe)
classical polytheism (the divine is composed of unique individual entities who act independently and interact with the manifest universe as individuals)
reconstructionist (follows a researched/historical religion to the extent possible)

since these are the most common different "styles" that support different Pagan paths. If one feels more right to you then that could help you sort out what type of Pagan group you're interested in. WitchVox is a good place to check for local groups. (it's also a good place to read about different pagan paths and the terminology)

Oh... a circle can refer to a group's regular meeting as well as being a term for the group itself. So "I'm a member of a circle" as well as "Tomorrow night is our circle, don't forget". The term used can give you a clue about what path a group follows. "Coven" often refers to a Wiccan group, "Grove" is often a Druidic group, "Circle" is often more general, "Blot" is an Asatru or Heathen group, and so on.

[shanniesue2]

thank you wombatclay

I found the MDC resource page the other day, and have been spending a lot of time perusing it. I checked out the spiral goddess website, and a lot of it really resonates with me (although I haven't read everything... it's a HUGE site).

I haven't checked out the links in your post yet, but from a general description, I think that panentheism is the best description of my views at this point in my journey. I definitely believe in a god/divine creator. But I believe that creation is also part of the creator and that she is essentially her creation. But also that she is not limited by the bounds of her creation (I don't know if I'm making any sense). The idea of a masculine creator makes absolutely no sense to me. I believe that it is the feminine energy that brings forth life. When I was pregnant a few years ago, I developed this very keen sense of my connection to the divine feminine. I sensed that I was directly part of her and part of her creation because I was participating in it--almost like I was actively creating along with her. When I first started sensing this connection, I didn't really think about it in those terms and I didn't use the word "she" although I sensed that the creative process was feminine. When I thought about it, it was mostly an imagery thing. I had this image (with no prior knowledge of anything about goddess worship) of a pregnant woman. And her pregnant belly was the image of the earth. Anyway, on a completely unrelated discussion with my brother last summer (we were looking for images that I could use on a flyer for my birthing from within classes), he suggested that I google images of Gaia. And it was really amazing b/c the images of Gaia matched the image that I had all on my own. When I was reading through the Spiral Grove, she kept suggesting that the memory and knowledge was within us. And that made a lot of sense when I thought about the image of Gaia that came to me while I was pregnant. She was within me all along. Anyway, I digress.

One thing that I'm sort of hung up on is the term witch. I know that the reason I'm hung up on it is probably more cultural upbringing more than anything (I was raised in a very devout Catholic family). And since I don't know anything about what witchcraft actually is (apart from the stereotypical ideas that the judeo-christian tradition teaches about it), well it feels sort of weird reading about witchcraft. I feel sort of like I'm breaking the rules. And I guess that's one of the hard things about this journey for me... is that my whole family is very Christian, and I live in a very conservative Christian area... so if I talked with any of my friends or family about this, well they would probably have one or both of two ideas 1. that my soul is in immortal peril and 2. that I have completely gone off the deep end. DH is being surprisingly understanding, although he feels very firmly that he will remain Christian (I suggested that we visit a UU church and he is very commited to the Episcopal Church), but again I digress to a completely different issue.

Anyway, thanks again for the input And thank you for listening to my rambling

[honey-lilac]

You can be Pagan without also self-identifying as witch - although the two do overlap considerably. I don't identify as witch although by most definitions I would fit within that category.

[Teenytoona]

HI Shanniesue!

Gaia has always been an interest to me to. I find it interesting that the image of Gaia appeals to many different avenues of life. She appealed to me in my early days of learning about environmental issues (as the Earth Mother), and then again when I was pregnant with DD (as the Earth Mother). I've found other connections to Gaia throughout my life, too. I say, keep learning about her since she stands out to you.

In addition to all the reading WombatClay suggested, here's more!

There's a great book that I think might interest you, called When God Was a Woman by Merlin Stone. It suggests that there was a concept of divine feminine (maybe not the ancient matriarchy that some would suggest) in ancient times. In fact I feel it's a sort of base to start with and to build from there. There are many Pagans out there who sort of devise their own belief system, and while that can be frustrating because it doesn't leave you something definitive, it's also exciting because it means lots of discovery.

Another book that I really enjoyed, and should probably read again is The Dance of the Dissident Daughter by Sue Monk Kidd. It's not strictly Pagan, but it does talk about coming from Christian perspective and searching for a Divine Feminine principle and even reconciling the two.

I know the word "witch" has alot of hang-ups with it. You don't have to label yourself as such if you decide to really get into a Pagan belief system. You may decide at some point you like the label, you may never identify with that, that's totally ok.

I read alot of Starhawk's books too. You might like The Earth Path. While people typically associate Starhawk with being a Witch in particular, I find that her beliefs are applicable to someone who values the earth whether or not they claim the witch label. I'm still undecided on calling myself a "witch", but I have more Starhawk books than anything else.

A UU church is a great resource. There are lots of varied beliefs at UU churches. Many have a groups called CUUPS (Covenant of Universal Unitarian Pagans) and that might be a good place to start looking. I know there are also all kinds of varieties of local groups too - meetup is a good place to look, also in my area there are several Yahoo based groups where people meet in person as well.

[wombatclay]

Big hugs... I came from a very conservative christian background myself and I had a lot of back and forth with myself in terms of how words like "witch" made me feel. Although I do describe myself as a "kitchen witch", I'm not a wiccan. Often wiccans use the term witch while other groups don't... there are many pagan paths that would never consider using the term to describe themselves.

But I know what you mean. One thing that helped me was another book by Chas Clifton. It's vol two in the Witchcraft Today series and it focuses on pagan "life stages"... each chapter addresses a different rite of passage moment (birth/parenting, working a 9-5 job, joining the military, teen life, death, etc). For some reason this book was very comforting to me... I'd be looking at a shelf of books that felt very very "woo woo" to me, filled with pictures of people doing things I'd always been taught were wrong, acting in ways I was completely unfamiliar with. But this one book had normal people doing normal things. Going to school, going to work, having babies, getting old. So every time I felt overwhelmed I'd grab this one off the library shelf and remind myself that paganism is a religion like any other. It's not good or bad, it just is!

If you find a book or website that makes you feel comfortable, keep hold of it! Go back to it often and if something makes you uncomfortable go back to that foundation for a while. Religion can permeate everything in your life and it can take a long time to unpack it all. Give yourself time and space, and permission to just walk away from things for a while as you process.

[saphire]

Hi shanniesue2 I really like Gaia imagery too. And the Venus of Willendorf has always spoken to me. So it was no surprise I liked this book http://www.amazon.com/Great-Cosmic-M...=2FY4OKA2JD32A
Enjoy your journey

[shanniesue2]

so many good suggestions! I can't wait to get my hands on some of these books!

My husband and I had a really good talk about my whole journey last night. And he is really just so wonderful I asked him if he thought I'd gone off the deep end... his response "you are where you are." I also asked him if he was okay with this (not because I need his permission but because we are married and have a child and my spiritual journey has an impact on us), and he told me he was. I asked if there was anything he thought he wouldn't be comfortable with. His answer: "anything that makes you feel like you need to separate yourself from me or your family."

So anyway, I'm feeling pretty positive about my journey. And I'm really glad that I posted this.

One question that I do have that I'm having trouble finding a straight answer to: Can someone tell me about the kinds of things that happen during a typical ritual (i.e. a sabbat or a full moon gathering)?

[wombatclay]

Hmmm... for a ritual a lot will depend on the group. Some groups are very "formal" with rituals that tend to be consistant from one to the next. Gardnerian Wicca for example. every Gardnerian group will have a more or less similar format, with similar holiday celebrations. But a Dianic Wiccan group, or a Feri group, or a Druidic group, or a CAW group will all have very different ritual patterns. And some groups try to have a different format every time! Just imagine the differences between a formal latin mass with chanting and incense, and a teen rock and roll revival with a huge stadium and laser light show, and a quaker meeting with four or five members sitting in silence in a sunny room. All three fall under the christian umbrella but an observer may not figure that out on their own!

In a very very VERY general way most pagans (in a group or on their own) will start by creating sacred space, honoring the divine as understood by that group, doing some sort of "work" or "celebration", thanking the divine, and closing the sacred space.

A lot of books and websites (look for something like "pagan 101") will give a basic ritual outline. But if there is a group you're interested in specifically, give them a call or an email. They'd be happy to help! Some groups (like Reclaiming) do a lot of public ritual and these groups often have individuals who welcome and assist visitors, answering questions and showing you what to do when. I don't know about Tulsa, but many cities will do public rituals a few times a year and you might find something by googling "Pagan Pride Day" and the name of a city near you.

(Oh... and a bit off topic, but I enjoy the Diana Tregarde mysteries by Mercedes Lackey. They're young adult supernatural so not very "though" reads but Diana is a pagan, the mysteries involve pagan themes, and at least one of them is set in OK. No idea about your taste in literature, but the books are fun and another way to learn about paganism. Pagan stories and music can make a nice change to the "how to" books on the shelves!)

[SeekingSerenity]

Originally Posted by Kaleanani

You can be Pagan without also self-identifying as witch - although the two do overlap considerably. I don't identify as witch although by most definitions I would fit within that category.

I don't call myself a witch, either, but I am not averse to the label. I do teach my children (or try to) that mainstream America's definition of a "witch" is wrong. In other words, I sometimes hear them involved in make-believe in which they are dealing with a "wicked witch," and I try to steer them away from that. I tell them witches are not evil, mean, wicked, green or scary. I have explained to my DS more about witches and the triple aspect of the Divine Feminine because he is a little older and he seems to "get" it more. I guess I have made some sort of impression, since I heard them one day playing with the neighbor girl - she was saying "hide from the wicked witch!" - and he sternly said, "Witches AREN'T bad!!"



(Of course, there was a rather heated argument following this statement, but eventually they just moved on to some other game...)

[shanniesue2]

Originally Posted by wombatclay

(Oh... and a bit off topic, but I enjoy the Diana Tregarde mysteries by Mercedes Lackey. They're young adult supernatural so not very "though" reads but Diana is a pagan, the mysteries involve pagan themes, and at least one of them is set in OK. No idea about your taste in literature, but the books are fun and another way to learn about paganism. Pagan stories and music can make a nice change to the "how to" books on the shelves!)

I searched for Diana Tregarde in our library's catalogue, but nothing came up... I searched for Mercedes Lackey, and had a lot come up... which ones are the diana tregarde books?

[wombatclay]

The Diana Tregarde books are:

Burning Water
Children of the Night
Jinx High

You can find excerpts and summaries on her website. She is pretty prolific, with a number of different "worlds" (some series are set in "our" world, other series in more "pure fantasy" worlds, some science fiction, some historical fiction or alternate history, etc), so if you end up enjoying her writing there's a lot out there! The only warning I tend to put on her books is that certain series (Valdemar, for example) explore relationships outside the "traditional family values" mold so those may not suit everyone.

The "Elemental Masters" series and the stand alone book Sacred Ground are also interesting from a pagan perspective.

Oh, other "pagan fiction" books your library probably has include the "Light" series by Marion Zimmer Bradley and Starhawk's fictional novels Fifth Sacred Thing and Walking to Mercury. As one of the primary founders of the Reclaiming tradition of witchcraft, the books by Starhawk are more detailed in terms of magic and practice though still very much "fiction". Silver Ravenwolf (author of many paganism 101 books) also wrote Beneath a Mountain Moon, a sort of gothic horror mystery. Oh, and she also wrote a series of young adult novels about a group of pagan teens but I haven't read those...

The "light" books are (from wikipedia):

Colin MacLaren series
Witch Hill (1972)
The Inheritor (1984)
Dark Satanic (1988)
Heartlight (1998)

Shadow's Gate series (with Rosemary Edghill)
Ghostlight (1995)
Witchlight (1996)
Gravelight (1997)
Heartlight (1998)

[shanniesue2]

so I picked up The Spiral Dance along with Burning Water from our library today.

Started reading Spiral Dance... and you know what occured to me? When I was reading the part about the inquisition and the witch trials... I thought back to what I learned about that time when I was in school (btw, I went to Catholic School for 12 years), and what I realized was that I learned about the trials in terms of probably innocent people being forced into false confessions b/c they looked funny or ticked some important person off or something. It was NEVER presented as a form of religious persecution. The underlying assumption was that real actual witches were consorting with the devil (although no one ever actually said that), but that that wasn't what went wrong with the inquisition and the trials. I don't know if I'm making sense when I trying to describe the difference between what I learned in school and what Starhawk was saying. It was like we were only taught a small part of the truth. It was really interesting to read about it from a different perspective. And it really opened my eyes.

I also really like what she said about covens: "they were those who could shape the unseen to their will. Healers, teachers, poets, and midwives, they were central figures in every community" (The Spiral Dance, page 29) The term witch sounds a lot less... ummm... superstitious when it's put that way.

[wombatclay]

If you find that Starhawk resonates for you, you might look into Reclaiming. They're a nice group (though I say this as someone who was a member for many years and still affiliated with the group so I'm a bit biased). They have a number of musical cds and books and Circle Round is one of the better known pagan parenting/raising pagan children resources.

[jenneology]

I have been drawn to paganism for years and recently embraced it again. There is a group of us who have been exploring Christian Paganism here: http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1151152

[AuntRayRay]