Tell the ER docs that your kid isn't vaxed?! - Page 2

[artgoddess]

Originally Posted by caned & able

No, I do not know what you mean.

You probably live in an area in which you have a choice of doctors and hospitals. The rest of us are not so lucky. So we often take pot luck and hope for the best and do what is in the best interest of our child in each and every particular ER situation.

Remember also, that accidents occur to children while on holiday in another community, so a parent does not always know the mindset of the particular ER team when they take their child in.

For most medically trained personnel, an unvaccinated child = child neglect and abuse. They see it as their mission to berate and punish the parent and overtreat the child while the child is in the control of their ER, and possibly look for other forms of neglect and abuse to call to the attention of DSS or CPS to further investigate the parents and home situation.

And remember, if you are taking in a child less than two months old and/or the child is born at home, it is SOP to give this child a spinal tap in many ERs. Medical personnel consider the outside to be dirty and they treat babies born outside of the hospital as dirty.

Actually I have been fortunate enough to never have brought either of my kids to our ER, so I have no idea if my local one is any good. I do live in a large urban area, so if it came down to it, I have the ability to pack up and leave to go to another hospital less than 15 minutes away. Urgent care is 2 for 2 in misdiagnosing my kids though. our non vax status had nothing to do with either case though. The only ER we have used was in a small town when visiting family and my son was treated very kindly.

I don't know where you get your info that MOST medical professionals believe and unvaxinated kid = neglect or abuse though. My kids have had two regular pediatricians, two trips to urgent care, one trip to an ER and no one once ever batted an eye about our vax status. My current ped. needs me to sign a refusal form, but he practically apologizes for having to ask me since his medical group requires one. So anecdotal on my behalf, yes. But we are 5 for 5 in not knowing a doctors stance on vaxing in advance and never had an issue with them or their support staff.

My statement wasn't meant to say a parent already knows how a doctor feels, but that chances are if a physician is that bad to begin with, your kids vax status isn't going to make them a better doctor. No matter what as parents I'm sure we all advocate for our children. I've fired doctors that did not in my opinion have my best interests at heart and if I was unlucky enough to have something similar happen with my kids I'd not hesitate in finding some other care.

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

I to would find other care if needed if I was in a position to do so. In some cases it is impossible to take your child somewhere else because of distance and/or because of the seriousness of the injury/illness.

I took my ds to the ER Sunday morning after he jumped off the toy box and hit his nose on the very edge of the foot board. He had to be seen right then to get the stitches and check for head injury since he it HARD.

I told them yes he was up to date but lets say that I told them no he wasnt and the ER dr decided to make a big deal out of it. I couldnt leave with ds because his nose was still bleeding and we still didnt know about head injury status. I would have had to drive an hour + to get him seen at another ER. During that time his life could have been in danger.

In the mean time the original ER dr could already have alerted CPS and then I would have them showing up at my door because of the charge of neglect. They see something in my house they dont agree with and wham I am screwed.

So it is safer to just say yes than to possibly have to deal with what some of the pp's have had to deal with. It isnt a big deal to just say yes while it could be a heck of a big deal to say no and the Dr. decide to make your life miserable.

[Pyrodjm]

I think it would depend on the reason for the visit. For a broken bone or another obvious trauma injury, yes she is up to date (she is according to the schedule we have agreed on with her ped, which is none). For a less obvious illness that truly needs diagnoses, I would tell that she is unvaxed.

My reason for thinking this way is that I spent 2 months with a terrible case of whooping caugh that went undiagnosed despite several trips to doctors because I was up to date on my shots. The doctor that finally diagnosed me (after I had begun to recover on my own) said it was a classic case. He was an older doctor.

[caned & able]

I don't know where you get your info that MOST medical professionals believe and unvaxinated kid = neglect or abuse though.

...I said "MOST".

I have five children. We have lived in several states and one foreign country. Experience has taught me that truth. You are not denying my own true life experience are you? I have not imagined it.

Mycatlover2A&X: I hope everything works out for you. Keep us posted. We do care.

[artgoddess]

Originally Posted by caned & able

...I said "MOST".

I have five children. We have lived in several states and one foreign country. Experience has taught me that truth. You are not denying my own true life experience are you? I have not imagined it.

Pyrodjm: I hope everything works out for you. Keep us posted. We do care.

Absolutely I am not denying your own true life experience. But I think what you mean really is that in your experience most medical professionals feel this way. This is very different than saying for a fact that most feel this way. If I were to go by my own personal experiences I could say ALL are okay with it, but I don't have any study to prove this so I just explained it as my experience instead.

I've had some doctors that have seemed to be on a mission to punish me or make my life miserable. I know they are out there, I'm not denying that. Benifit of the doubt tells me that most medical professionals don't go into the career simply for the terrible hours, high stress and big bucks. There are medical professionals out there who genuinely care about people and want to do what is right, not just be proven right.

For that reason if a physician feels it is necessary to ask me my kids vax status I tell them the complete truth. When I go to the doctor, especially if it's something for my kids I tend to ask a lot more questions than are asked of me. I need to fully understand all options before I agree to any tests. And I do so all very politely and if not in too much pain with a big a smile I can muster on my face. Never in a "I don't trust you" chip on my shoulder way, but in a "I'm sorry but I'm going to need more info before I can decide. If you need to see someone else and come back that's okay." sort of way. The only doctor who said he was the doctor and he gets to decide without me questioning him, was immediately told not to come near me or my room. Another doctor was called, and it turns out I was right.

[claddaghmom]

No, I don't think that's being honest to shove off her statement as purely a personal experience.

All you need to do is float away from mothering momentarily to find hundreds and hundreds of blogs, articles, journals, forums etc written by doctors who perpetrate myths about vaccination over and over again.

Heck, you actually don't need to leave MDC at all. Just browse the numerous posts asking for friendly doctors or read the stories of getting kicked out again by a ped, etc.

A doctor or nurse who isn't foaming at the mouth over vaccines is a rare luxury.

To assume the ERs in our nation are somehow exempt from this is not realistic.

[A&A]

I always get asked, and I always say "we have a philosophical exemption." So far, they've just nodded and moved on. (Knock on wood.)

[crunchy_mommy]

Originally Posted by A&A

I always get asked, and I always say "we have a philosophical exemption." So far, they've just nodded and moved on. (Knock on wood.)

Oh I like this too. I said something similar to my OB about birth control once (that I'm religiously opposed) and she was immediately all apologetic & promised to never bring it up again!!

[crunchy_mommy]

Originally Posted by claddaghmom

A doctor or nurse who isn't foaming at the mouth over vaccines is a rare luxury.

To assume the ERs in our nation are somehow exempt from this is not realistic.

This, totally... We've already switched pedis (after very very careful screening in the first place to find one more "accepting" of not vaxing!) It's a horrible feeling to have your love for your child questioned!!! It's like a stab in the heart when a doctor implies you don't have your child's best interests in mind! And I worked for a pedi in another state several years ago... they did NOT think highly of non-vaxing parents and they kicked them out of the practice. There are 2 docs in my state that are truly OK with not vaxing (yes I realize there COULD be more than 2 but even in my Tribal Area here on MDC there are only 2 docs people have had much success with.

Artgoddess, I imagine you live in an area where people are very open-minded on this issue??

[HappyMommy2]

Originally Posted by artgoddess

I can understand these fears, however I just want to point out that if a medical doctor would do any of these things, then they aren't a good doctor or at a good hospital to begin with. Even if I had a vaxed child, and did things at home with my kids that completely jived with the medical facilities ideals, I can't imagine my child would be given proper and good care by the same people who would give a child improper and inadequate care to a non-vaxed child, you know what I mean?

This is what I used to think too. It is pretty shocking that these smart people would actually not put the patient's best interests first. But it happens. A lot.

[laohaire]

I don't know what percent of medical personnel will use my daughter's "under"vaccinated status against her (and us), but I know it's not a tiny, negligible percent. Maybe it's a minority; heck, I think and hope it's a minority. But let's say it's only 25%... too risky for me.

It would be a harder choice if I felt the risks of lying were serious, but I don't. If my child presents with meningitis symptoms, they should not be dismissed based on my answer. If my child presents with flu symptoms, a spinal tap shouldn't be the first order based on my answer. In fact, the only relevant situation I could think of where the doctor would need to know about vaccinations is if there is a chance my child is REACTING to a recently administered vaccine (but we all know that's it's a minority of doctors who will even consider that, so that's just a pipe dream anyway).

Illness and disease should not be ruled out by vaccine status.
Illness and disease should not suddenly weigh more heavily as a possibility due to vaccine status.

I've heard so many stories about spinal tap punishments, I'm not taking a chance, even if I believe (and I do) that's it's not the likeliest scenario.

As with my choices about vaccines themselves, this is a risk/benefit scenario. I see very, very little benefit in disclosing vaccine status to ER doctors, and I see some considerable risks.

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by artgoddess

Absolutely I am not denying your own true life experience. But I think what you mean really is that in your experience most medical professionals feel this way. This is very different than saying for a fact that most feel this way. If I were to go by my own personal experiences I could say ALL are okay with it, but I don't have any study to prove this so I just explained it as my experience instead.

I've been in the non-vaxing "community" long enough to see "non-vax=neglect" as more the rule than the exception. I know many more people that have been kicked out of practices for non-vaccination (or not on schedule) than those who could say , hasn't been a problem.

[DashsMama]

With 3 wild boys we go to the ER a lot. I have always answered "We don't immunize." when I have been asked if we're up to date on our shots, and I have never been given a hard time about it. Perhaps this is because we have always lived in cities on the west coast and the doctors here are more used to people doing their own thing.

I have read about plenty of bad experiences here on MDC, and I did have one irritating experience with one nurse practitioner when we were going in for new patient check-ups. So I know unpleasant medical reactions to vaccination status happens.

I think you just need to weigh the situation and do what you feel comfortable with. I don't feel comfortable lying, so I tell the truth. But, I also have the fortitude to stand up to doctors if they are making a bad diagnosis or requesting unreasonable tests. I realize that not everyone does, so it really is a personal decision you need to make based on your personality and circumstances.

[nia82]

I have yet to meet a nurse or doctor who's cool with selective vaccinating, delayed or none whatsoever... I was always hassled!!! If you are in a rural area chances are nobody will think it's ok to not vaccinate. And we are stuck with military health insurance, and NOT a single nurse or doctor is cool with skipping even one vaccine. They love vaccines, they are their holy grail.
At the ER I said yes, DS is up to date (which he is in our book!). We were there because he dropped something heavy on his toe, so vaccines have nothing to do with his issue there. If I brought him in for something like suspected meningitis or pertussis, yes, I would say he is not vaccinated. But I would want them to test for those diseases even if he were vaccinated for them in such a case as we all know that vaccines don't always work (especially with the conditions listed above).

[MyBoysBlue]

I wonder if the response would be different if you said "no they are not up to date" as opposed to "we don't vaccinate". I can see the first response as being a sign of a parent who may be neglectful. Meaning they haven't bothered to keep their child up to date. "We don't vaccinate" could be seen to mean we have decided not to vaccinate for whatever reason, not because we couldn't be bothered. I know MIL didn't vaccinate my DH until he was over a year old because she just didn't bother to make the appointment not because she had any objections. I think if I ever need to answer this question I will make a point to say that we choose not to vaccinate.

[Peony]

I have always posted on these threads that it depends on the situation and that I am not above lying. We were in the ER yet again over the weekend and guess what, I lied. For the record I am a RN, one of my children has an extensive respiratory history dating back to a VPD as a newborn (pertussis) and gets very ill very quickly. I answer the vax question based on several things, what I am there for, how I feel about it, and the medical professional that is questioning me.

I brought DS in for dehydration due to RSV which we had been seeing the pedi for during week. I was in the office 4 different times that week, my 3 year also had pneumonia, saw a different doc every time, not once was it my regular one that is completely cool with us not vaxing. While I am sure it was in the charts that we are not vaxing, when I see another doc, I always get asked, never once was I asked that week.

So then I head to the ER, I get this nurse, who didn't know I was also a nurse, and was definitely pulling the "I am a medical professional and far superior to you" attitude. I don't always say am a RN, I sometimes save the "nurse card" for when I really need it, and because I also like to see how I get treated when they don't know. She was all up in my business for lack of a better term, and then we get to the vax question, I knew that the already intense grilling was going to go to all out warfare if she knew DS was not vaxed and the info was not important to his treatment so I looked at her, smiled and said "He is up to date.". End of conversation. He got IV fluids and then we went home.

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by Peony

So then I head to the ER, I get this nurse, who didn't know I was also a nurse, and was definitely pulling the "I am a medical professional and far superior to you" attitude. I don't always say am a RN, I sometimes save the "nurse card" for when I really need it, and because I also like to see how I get treated when they don't know.

[counterGOPI]

Originally Posted by Emmeline II

There have been people who have had their child's illness ignored by doctors/nurses who would rather lecture/berate parents for their vaccine choices, order invasive testing based soley on vaccine status, and treat their children with hostility due to vaccine status.

That's what just happened to me

[annie2186]

I have had only one experience with this, going to the ER and them asking me about my LO's vax status.
She asked if DD was up to date on her vax's and I said "no, she's not". I think the way I said it implied I was against vaxinations though because she asked "and that is your choice?" and I said "yep!"

I didn't really think to much about it before I answered........now that I have read this thread I am not sure how I will answer next time! (Well, I hope their IS no next time)
I almost feel like we have to stand up to them for our rights and beliefs - but on the other hand, I don't really have time to be hassled to death or have my children poked and prodded needlessly
Ugh - life!
I have a bad feeling it is just going to get worse - and I just hope I don't have any LO's when that happens...............

[Emmeline II]

Exhibit A: http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1196722