Calling all atheists - Page 4

[2xy]

Originally Posted by CherryBomb

That depends on what type of Buddhism you're practicing. Theravada Buddhism is pretty atheistic, though it (and the Buddha) never say point blank "there is no creator God". Not so much for Mahayana. Tibetan Buddhism, especially, most definitely worships god/goddess beings (Tara, Maitreya, Kuan Yin, etc). The (Tibetan Gelugpa) geshes I've talked to who come here from the East are usually pretty surprised to learn Westerners describe them as atheists, because they certainly don't think of themselves that way.

Tibetan Buddhism has a lot of belief in the supernatural, in general (hungry ghosts and what not).

That is because the Buddhism was blended with local folk religion, and is no longer unadulterated Buddhism. Also, whenever a belief system is in place for a long time, it's inevitable that splinter groups will form. I was raised in a Shinto Buddhist family. I know all about the superstitious side of it. I'm talking about Buddhism the way Siddartha Gautama taught.

[Christopher]

As a freethinker, I'm not enamoured of the idea that there was nothing and then there was something. Either there was never nothing and always something, or there was nothing and then came something. I'm not sure either way. But that's the beauty of all religious systems: by an ironic twist, the seeds of agnosticism are build right in. For example, a Christian can claim that God created ex nihilo (out of nothing), but there is simply no way to claim any evidence-based reasoning on that count; it's simply a proposition, and can't graduate beyond that. Therefore, to know whether creation ex nihilo is true is impossible. We are all agnostic about our ultimate beginnings, and there's no escaping that fact.

At the same time, I'm not a fan of the eternal regression questions like, "Well, who created God?" There's just no way to answer that question without going through a series of convolutions that get us no further ahead, anyway. You may as well ask, "Well, do you walk to school, or carry your lunch?" When a person uses the term 'God', it includes within its use the notion/assumption that God is uncreated, and the ground for all being. Fine. We're no further ahead when a creationist asks a freethinker, "Well, where did the singularity come from?" There's no way to answer such a question, and it only proves our agnosticism again.

[Shantimama]

Moving this thread to the Religious Studies forum

[Thao]

So the argument that science is repeatable doesn't distinguish it. I could engage in a religious ceremony and have an experience that would be expected by the leaders of that religion.

This is where I disagree with Theia. One person participates in a sweat lodge ceremony and finds it uplifting and wonderful, whereas another participates the same thing, finds it sweaty and boring, and converts to Christianity which really feeds their soul. At the same time, a third person is converting from Christianity to Islam because the clarity of the theology of One God feels right. At the same time a Muslim is becoming an atheist because... you get the idea. Yet, all of these people experience gravity in the same way. They will all get the same results when they drop a ball.

Religious experience is NOT repeatable for everyone; that's why we have so many different religions. There really is a qualitative difference between objective (scientific) evidence and subjective (religious) evidence. Both are important, but chances are if your friend told you they can materialize a job for you by praying to God... you're going to do the work to line up some job interviews, no matter how much faith your friend has in the power of prayer. You are not going to put your faith in their subjective evidence, you need either objective evidence or your own subjective evidence on the matter.

Soulcakes made the point that even scientific evidence is subjective because the observer affects the experiment. Sure, that is true. Philosophically, we can't be sure than anything exists outside our own heads so it's possible the experiment doesn't exist at all. However, that doesn't stop us from regularly trusting science with our lives by flying through the air in hollow tubes called airplanes. Every time a person buys an airline ticket, or drives a car, or operates a microwave... they are declaring their confidence in scientific experimentation. Philosophical considerations aside, it WORKS, and everyone can observe that it works.

I respect both objective and subjective evidence, I think they address different needs. But the bottom line is, scientific evidence applies to everyone; religious evidence applies only to the person experiencing it.

[Thao]

Great question, OP! As an agnostic, I don't "have faith" in any theory about where the universe came from.

I say, "I don't know".

I think that is a rational response .

[Christopher]

Nicely stated, Thao!

[anniegirl]

I haven't read through the whole thread yet, but I love conversations like this.

To answer the OP's question:
In terms of belief in a personal god I consider myself atheist. In terms of the origins of the universe I consider myself agnostic. I wish I knew about/understood quantum physics and all that jazz, because it's all incredibly fascinating and difficult for me to wrap my brain around.

I remember when I first realized I had lost my faith (I was raised Christian), the thing that really bummed me out was that I had lost my belief that I would someday know the answers to all these questions. There is a verse in the NT about only seeing things dimly now, but someday we will see clearly (or something like, I know I'm butchering. Sorry!). I really hung onto that. The whole everlasting life in heaven thing never held much appeal to me (praising and worshiping God for eternity? Oh man, that sounds so darn boring, like a never-ending church service. I think I'd rather just not exist). But the idea that at death I would understand the universe, see it in its entirety, all the galaxies and other worlds...well that was just so exciting and tantalizing for me. The realization that I will never see/know these things still really bums me out. Also that all the suffering in the world will not be righted, that bums me out too. But also motivates me to do my best to make the world a better place now and for future generations.

Anyhoo, to me it doesn't make logical sense to jump from "We don't know how the universe began" to "therefore a personal god exists". For me it just begins and ends with "We don't know".

Also I loved this quote from Thao:

One person participates in a sweat lodge ceremony and finds it uplifting and wonderful, whereas another participates the same thing, finds it sweaty and boring, and converts to Christianity which really feeds their soul. At the same time, a third person is converting from Christianity to Islam because the clarity of the theology of One God feels right. At the same time a Muslim is becoming an atheist because... you get the idea. Yet, all of these people experience gravity in the same way. They will all get the same results when they drop a ball.

Religious experience is NOT repeatable for everyone; that's why we have so many different religions. There really is a qualitative difference between objective (scientific) evidence and subjective (religious) evidence.

[Encinalien]

Do athiest have callings?

Originally Posted by eclipse

But why can't the universe just simply be a pre-existing truth? Does it have to come from somewhere?

Originally Posted by Theia

Pre-existing.... existing before what?

Yeah. *This. *And then the quiestion isn't where did the first speck come from, it's where did time begin. *Because time is the element of change. *The law of inertia says objects in motion tend to stay in motion, objects at rest tend to stay at rest. *So who among us made the first ripple that began the eveloutionary process in the primordial stuff we always were before time begat space begat life as we now know it?
It wasn't my pretend friend god, who's no longer among us. LoL. (currently self-editing as I'm usually blurry on the boundries of socially acceptable. To see the rest of this paragraph Google George Carlin and Religion) LoL.

Yeah, but I didn't go to school or anything. All my theories come from hanging out with the hippies back in the sixties. Peace.