well behaved in public, disobedient at home

[elus0814]

Our two older kids are 4y2m and 5y5m. They are homeschooled but have playgroups and classes. They also go with me most everywhere I go, to the grocery store and places like that. They behave wonderfully in public and we're often complimented on how well behaved they are. When we're at home it's another story altogether. They fight with each other, pick up the baby after I tell them for the thousandth time he's too big for them to carry, purposefully get out art supplies and things we have told them they have to wait a few minutes for, play noisily when the baby is sleeping, and never go to bed when they are told to (even after extensive routines are carried out).

A big issue is that they don't sleep enough and it makes the days more difficult. It always takes a minimum of an hour to get them to bed and it's often over two. A normal night for them is sleeping from 10pm to 6am! They need a lot more sleep but simply won't lay down and try. We've set up their rooms and helped them pick out things for them. We've tried emptying their rooms of everything but the bed and dresser. We've tried books and toys to play with in bed. Nothing works. Even when we sit there with them it's over an hour before they fall asleep. Being told to stay in their rooms doesn't work at all, they just come downstairs over and over again. Our master bedroom is downstairs as well and they often come down during the night and sleep on the couch which means they are woken up super early by DH. We've tried charts with stickers and awards, we've tried taking away toys, we've tried taking away playdates and special outings, we've tried carrying them upstairs over and over again (they just laughed at that one and thought it was a game), we've tried special blankets and pillows, we've tried dark curtains, we've tried explaining why they need to sleep, we've tried having other family members talk to them about it, we've tried begging and crying. Nothing seems to get through. Everyone is exhausted and on edge. We had no problems with bedtime until last year when I lived with my in-laws for several months while DH was overseas. MIL always took the time to sit with them until they fell asleep (something we didn't do before that since they were babies). It seemed great at the time since she would read to them and cuddle while I was tired and pregnant or busy with the new baby but now I feel like we've created monsters!

The other big issue is the noise. The two older kids don't seem able to keep quiet or play on the own for more than a few minutes. Again, we've tried all kinds of things to get them to and nothings works. I know kids are noisy but they should be able to keep occupied quietly for fifteen minutes while I get the baby down for a nap then remain on task with schoolwork or play upstairs for a couple hours while he's sleeping (they can make all the noise they want when they are upstairs). They just keep coming down the stairs crying about something and wake him up. He hasn't woken up from a nap on his own in months, every single day they wake him up at least once and often he won't go back to sleep. He's sleep deprived like the rest of us! I'm expecting again and he's too heavy for me to have in the carrier for his whole nap (or much at all anymore).

In the past few weeks we've set up the backyard so they can play out there alone while I watch them from the dining room, the yard is small and I can see everything from the table. They come inside wanting to tell me something or ask a question every few minutes. I'm ready to lock the door so they stay outside (while I'm watching them, of course) but that feels so mean, I want them to know they can always come to me if they have a need but these are not needs!

DH feels they are 'spoiled' and should be spanked but doesn't since I don't agree with that. I'll admit that I've been tempted to - nothing gets through to them but maybe that would. We've tried, on top of everything else, time out. It's impossible when the baby is sleeping since they cry and is extremely difficult other times. I'm alone with them all day and, being pregnant and nursing on minimal sleep, I'm exhausted and simply can't carry them when I tell them to sit or stand there to make sure they stay put. Some days I just melt into tears because they won't do anything I ask. They are wonderful kids, sweet and caring and perfect in public but they just let loose at home and nothing seems to tame them. I want to keep being gentle with them but I find myself screaming at them more and more. I don't know if they need more alone/cuddle time with me (they both jump at the opportunity when it's offered) but with a baby that screams every time he's put down and a list of housework and homeschooling work I'm stretched thin as it is. I know they need at least a couple more hours of sleep each night but although I can take them to bed I can't make them sleep.

Is this normal? Is there anything left to try?

I don't know if it matters but they kids are never watched by anyone else. We live more than a thousand miles from our nearest family member and have yet to find a babysitter that doesn't charge an arm and leg. They are only every taken care of by DH and I, it makes me wonder if they don't understand that other children have to pay attention to and do what adults tell them to.

[nina_yyc]

s s s
That sounds really stressful and I have to say it sounds like you are handling it much better than I would. I just have one three year old who we're working on dropping the power struggles with at home and a baby and I'm NOT pregnant and I am almost crazy.

Normal or not, it does not sound acceptable. Your children are old enough to give you a 15 minute break once in awhile or go to bed in a reasonable manner. While it's possible that more alone/cuddle time would help, I think you need to address the misbehavior directly as well. You need to show them that disobeying you is not a way to get attention. If you haven't already I would try to cut down on requests and give more choices or more responsibility (i.e. instead of helping them with something they can handle themselves, just tell them you want it done and leave them to it.) Then when they do misbehave, stop it in the lowest-key way you can without lecturing or nagging. Try it for a few days and see if they keep it up after they aren't getting the payoff anymore.

For bedtime, sounds like they want you to stay but won't settle when you do. What we do with my DD is we agree to stay on condition that she is quiet and still. If she is fooling around an not trying to sleep, we leave. Usually after 5-10 mins outside the room I ask her if she wants another chance and at that point she will cooperate.

I don't know what to tell you about your napping baby...2hrs seems like a long time to play independently. Do you go upstairs to check in with them regularly? Can you be upstairs with them and have the babe on the monitor? If you do TV, can you make part of it movie time?

[elus0814]

I can try to ignore the misbehavior but often it is loud when they need to be quiet, is making a huge mess (like using stamps after they were told to wait for me first), or is flat out dangerous (like climbing on a bookshelf). It's seldom something that can simply be ignored.

The big problem at night is that I can tell them I won't stay if they aren't quiet and trying to sleep but it's essentially unenforceable since if I leave their rooms they will also leave their rooms. Is there any kind way to get them to stay in their rooms?

For naptime, if I stay upstairs with them they still go downstairs and wake the baby up. It comes down to me sitting for two hours at the top of the stairs to guard it which is a terrible way to spend my only time not having to hold the baby.

The only tvs are in the master bedroom (where the baby sleeps) and in the living room, near the master bedroom. They make noise during movies and tv shows, they don't watch a lot of tv so I don't think they're used to sitting and being still staring at something for that long. We've tried movies on the laptop upstairs but it's a small screen and they fight with each other when having to sit close for a long time.

I'm at a loss.

[nina_yyc]

Originally Posted by elus0814

I can try to ignore the misbehavior but often it is loud when they need to be quiet, is making a huge mess (like using stamps after they were told to wait for me first), or is flat out dangerous (like climbing on a bookshelf). It's seldom something that can simply be ignored.

No, I didn't mean that you ignore things that are really bad, just minimize the disruption that misbehavior causes in their home, so it doesn't become a pattern that sucks all your energy and attention. For example, if they are climbing on a bookshelf, just get them down and go back to what you are doing. Are there any enforceable consequences you can set up? (i.e. too loud = go outside or make a giant mess = toy time out)

Originally Posted by elus0814

The big problem at night is that I can tell them I won't stay if they aren't quiet and trying to sleep but it's essentially unenforceable since if I leave their rooms they will also leave their rooms. Is there any kind way to get them to stay in their rooms?

Is there another way you can maybe handle it? Maybe you and your DH can divide and conquer and offer an incentive like a backrub or lullaby for staying quiet and still? Then if they don't stay quiet and still, sit across the room and read a book? Quiet time or books in rooms before bed to help wind down so they actually want to be in bed?

Are your kids getting enough exercise? If I had a loud and not tired kid I'd probably take her out to the park and turn her loose.

For naptime, if I stay upstairs with them they still go downstairs and wake the baby up. It comes down to me sitting for two hours at the top of the stairs to guard it which is a terrible way to spend my only time not having to hold the baby.

Can you enlist their help in picking upstairs activities that they'll look forward to for naptime, like playdoh or something? Or create an enforceable consequence like loud = outside?

If my suggestions don't sound like they will work for you, that is cool too...I'm just trying to help you brainstorm. There has got to be a solution...like you said, you have great kids who are clearly smart enough to know the rules...I know you will figure it out

[BetsyNY]

What about a video or DVD?

Never mind, I see that you tried that.

I often have thoughts in my mind about what my boys "should" be able to do at whatever age. It's the kind of thinking that helps no one--regardless of what we're feeling, their needs are what they are.

I would try harder to make the TV thing work. Move it to another room, the furthest possible from where the baby sleeps, or put the baby down for a nap in another room. Get a white noise machine for the baby's room; maybe that will help block out some noise.

The nighttime thing--I don't know what to tell you. It just sucks. My husband goes to bed every night with our four year old. It's been months since I've seen him after 8:30 PM, but they're little for a short time and we just have to do what we need to do to get sleep.

[frickchen]

Personally, I would focus on logical consequences. It sounds like they are after your attention, so you can ignore certain behaviors (rather than start off a battle) and make sure they know the logical consequences for the big no's like being loud during naptime. For example, if you have to spend the baby's entire naptime sitting on the stairs, you won't have time to cook dinner or do laundry or ... if baby wakes up, you'll be comforting baby later and won't be able to read to them or do other fun thing.

As for bedtime, it sounds like a huge power struggle. You can say you've given it some thought and you'd like to make a deal. Tell them that they don't have to go to sleep, but they need to stay in their rooms. They can decide when to turn off their light. With my DD1, she came downstairs and we escorted her back up a few times and tucked her back in and reiterated the rule. When she persisted, I just ignored her when she came sneaking down, pretending to be deeply involved in a book and she went upstairs on her own. Another time, she came down repeatedly and my husband and I just turned off the lights and TV and cuddled on the couch. The lesson is that night time is boring and I might as well go to sleep because mom's not going to let me prolong it.

Spend some time sitting down and talking with them and see if you can get to the root of the problems. Sounds like it's been a time of transitions for them (new baby, overseas dad). Ask them what you can do to make them feel like they are getting attention (or whatever need they identify). Ask them for their suggestions on being quiet and staying in bed.

Just a few thoughts--hopefully some new things to try! Good luck!

Andrea

[mamazee]

You've identified the problem - sleep. You've also got a good solution - back yard to wear them out. I'd keep going in that direction. Give them fun things to do out there so they get lots of fresh air and movement. Messy things, as kids can stay amused for ages getting messy.

The reason they're OK out but not at home is because they've learned manners, and home is a safe place. To me, that sounds like an indication that you're doing some things right rather than wrong.

I'd keep encouraging the outdoor play and work on the sleep stuff. My kids are both really good sleepers though, so I don't have any ideas about how to improve that issue. Might they have dietary issues/sensitivities?

[K-Mom3]

I learned a totally different approach to problem behaviors from a special needs parenting class I took. Have you ever heard of "behavior management" or "positive behavior supports"? Both of these are common techniques for sn kids and they definitely can help typical kids, too.

First, you figure out WHY the kids are doing this and see if you can fulfill that need in some other way. Then, you teach them a really specific behavior pattern to replace the problem behavior. You give them extra help and rewards for doing the new behavior.

So, for the time when you put the baby down for a nap, you could make a list of appropriate things for the kids to do. Take pictures of them doing the right thing and put them up on a chart. Maybe make a list of things you're going to grade them on and come give them points at the end of your nap time routine. For example, staying downstairs, playing quietly, etc. could each be 10 points and if they earn a certain number of points they get a reward. I would start out at a time when you don't have the baby issue. For example, earlier in the day, set a timer for 20 minutes (or 10 or 5 or whatever time you think they can be successful for) and let them practice using the chart or the point system or whatever you decided on. Leave the room to take a shower or play with the baby in another room. Come back at the end and give them the reward they earned. You can increase the amount of time until they can do it for the whole time of the baby's naptime routine.

You can also add a negative consequence if you like--I was taught that it should be a toy time out or a loss of privileges for one day or less. The negative consequence should be small, unemotional and completely consistent.

You could also do this kind of thing for bedtime. Make a picture chart of the steps in the bedtime routine and give them a reward every time they complete a step.

For staying in bed AFTER the bedtime routine, my kids do well with a "hand pat" game. At the start, I would come in every few minutes and pat their hands if they were in bed and quiet. I gradually increased the time. Now I go in once about 20 minutes after lights out and usually don't need to come in again. I also raised the standards gradually--now they only get a hand pat if they are lying down, head on pillow, tucked in blankets, not talking. The negative consequence I use for getting out of bed is that one of their toys goes in toy time out. It is kind of silly, because they aren't going to be playing with their toys at bed time anyway but if I take something out of their room and put it in timeout, they get really upset so it is a good motivator for them even though it doesn't really make sense.

In the class I took, I was advised to only work on one thing at a time. Get that going for several weeks and then tackle another behavior.