any recent research on nutrition and crowded teeth?

[caedmyn]

Has anyone read anything recently (like the last 1.5 years or so) about nutrients that affect teeth spacing? I've done the whole A, D, & K2 thing and it has not had any affect on my 4 YO's crowded teeth (started when she was one), or on my 14 month old's teeth which look like they will be just as crowded as his sister's. Just wondering if there's any new info out there.

[tanyalynn]

Have you read the posts at wholehealthsource.blogspot.com? I'm not sure it's new research, but he's pulled together a lot of sources besides Price.

That said, I think it's a harder haul when kids have other health issues. I _think_ I've seen a little progress with my son (emphasis on little), he's almost 4, but given all the tons of supplementation I've done for more than 2 years now, plus decent real food and avoiding his food intolerances, it doesn't seem impressive. But I think it's a real uphill struggle when there are significant underlying problems, and I think the mercury qualifies for us--and that blog I mentioned doesn't touch on that at all.

[caedmyn]

Yeah I can't say I've seen any improvements in my DD despite all my efforts, she just keeps developing new food intolerances. At least the baby only has 2 whole food intolerances (I think...so far) and some food chemical sensitivites. I've come to accept that no matter what I eat or feed my kids, they will have crowded teeth, they will have multiple food intolerances, and they will get sick just as much as everyone else's kids who eat the SAD.

I'll take a look at that blog, thanks.

[tanyalynn]

You've worked so hard, and it may be a small thing, but you've made a lot of people aware of food chemical sensitivities, it's become a part of the group knowledge over in Allergies. It seems to be helping other people there, cold comfort when you're still struggling with your kids though.

A long time ago, I think we posted a bit about zinc. I think I finally sort of get what's going on with my kids--I'm giving them 40-55 mg per day (they are 40 and 50 lbs, ages 3 and 6), and this is the level it's taken to finally make them not noticeably deficient. It's because of the mercury, I hadn't realized that extremely high supplementation levels are often needed when mercury is the issue--the autism mercury yahoo group recommends (body weight + 20) mg per kid per day.

[for anyone not used to supplementing zinc, the amount I'm giving my kids would make most adults sick within 6 months, it would induce other mineral deficiencies because it's so high]

Long-term I'm wondering if I'll need to have DS's tongue clipped to see improvement, it's not a blatant tongue tie, but it's tight and his tongue mobility isn't normal, so I'm wondering if he's got a mechanical stress that's involved. I've decided to take it one step at a time though, I was going a bit crazy with the stress of trying to do everything at once.

[PreggieUBA2C]

Caedmyn, that is frustrating. I rarely pay attention to user names, so forgive my ignorance when I ask you if you eat a lots of mineral-rich foods. I'm asking because both dp and I have crowded teeth. Dp's teeth are so crowded that they have several times cracked and parts have fallen out, exposing nerve and shards to be caught in his gums. It's really terrible.

Mine are not nearly that bad, but they overlap in a few places and I have that annoying V-shaped jaw and no proper bite, so have always ground my teeth at night and have tmj pain and associated problems.

Our two eldest sons did not receive tf during gestation and only began eating tf at ages 3 and 2 respectively. They are now 6 and 5. Before, they both had very heart-shaped faces and ds1 had teeth come in brown and soft from a lack of enamel. His adult teeth have been coming in for the past year- 4 molars and 4 front teeth and they are all heavily enamelled and have lots of space between them, and they are white!

When we started tf, I gave them bone broth and drops of concentrace in everything they ate and drank. Within two months, their facial structure had changed from heart-shaped to square. Their teeth spread out, but ds2's teeth didn't do so evenly, so it will be interesting to see what his adult teeth do when they start coming in. Ds1's deciduous teeth did spread out evenly though and his adult teeth followed suit.

My other 2 dc have been tf all the way and have beautiful U-shaped jaws with evenly spaced teeth and square faces.

Ds2 doesn't seem to have developed as U-shaped a jaw as his brothers, even though it is certainly not V-shaped. His face is developing with the look of many people on my dp's side of the family though, so he may never have the full open jaw shape that the others do. My father grew up on tf and his jaw is very open and square. Everyone on dp's side from the last generation, since not eating tf any longer after coming to Canada, has narrow, pinched faces with teeth problems.

I have also been supplementing vitamin D this winter, and have seen further changes in ds2's bone structure, so I am hoping his adult teeth do come in evenly spaced and not like his deciduous teeth which are spaced and then crowded together and then more spaces, etc....

So anyway, I was wondering if you have been feeding your children lots of minerals from pastured animals' bones, egg yolks, organ meats, etc..., and still see no improvement.

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by PreggieUBA2C

Caedmyn, that is frustrating. I rarely pay attention to user names, so forgive my ignorance when I ask you if you eat a lots of mineral-rich foods. I'm asking because both dp and I have crowded teeth. Dp's teeth are so crowded that they have several times cracked and parts have fallen out, exposing nerve and shards to be caught in his gums. It's really terrible.

Mine are not nearly that bad, but they overlap in a few places and I have that annoying V-shaped jaw and no proper bite, so have always ground my teeth at night and have tmj pain and associated problems.

Our two eldest sons did not receive tf during gestation and only began eating tf at ages 3 and 2 respectively. They are now 6 and 5. Before, they both had very heart-shaped faces and ds1 had teeth come in brown and soft from a lack of enamel. His adult teeth have been coming in for the past year- 4 molars and 4 front teeth and they are all heavily enamelled and have lots of space between them, and they are white!

When we started tf, I gave them bone broth and drops of concentrace in everything they ate and drank. Within two months, their facial structure had changed from heart-shaped to square. Their teeth spread out, but ds2's teeth didn't do so evenly, so it will be interesting to see what his adult teeth do when they start coming in. Ds1's deciduous teeth did spread out evenly though and his adult teeth followed suit.

My other 2 dc have been tf all the way and have beautiful U-shaped jaws with evenly spaced teeth and square faces.

Ds2 doesn't seem to have developed as U-shaped a jaw as his brothers, even though it is certainly not V-shaped. His face is developing with the look of many people on my dp's side of the family though, so he may never have the full open jaw shape that the others do. My father grew up on tf and his jaw is very open and square. Everyone on dp's side from the last generation, since not eating tf any longer after coming to Canada, has narrow, pinched faces with teeth problems.

I have also been supplementing vitamin D this winter, and have seen further changes in ds2's bone structure, so I am hoping his adult teeth do come in evenly spaced and not like his deciduous teeth which are spaced and then crowded together and then more spaces, etc....

So anyway, I was wondering if you have been feeding your children lots of minerals from pastured animals' bones, egg yolks, organ meats, etc..., and still see no improvement.

I ate a ton of bone broth from the time DD was about 3 months to 15 months...did lots of herbal infusions and stuff too. Didn't make any difference that I can tell, and when I found out about her food chemical sensitivites I realized that long-cooked bone broth was going to be pretty much a thing of the past for us since it's high in amines, one of the naturally occurring food chemicals she reacts to. Both my kiddos have problems with dairy, even raw, and eggs...I've never been able to find a reliable source of pastured eggs anyway though I did eat tons of "free range" eggs during pregnancy. I could try Concentrace I guess as that's one thing that I haven't tried.

[WuWei]

There are midline issues associated with crowded teeth, such as the v-shape on the bottom teeth, or tongue-tie, sacral dimples, etc. The MTHFR gene polymorphism is related.

Food folate is a huge factor with MTHFR.


Pat

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by WuWei

There are midline issues associated with crowded teeth, such as the v-shape on the bottom teeth, or tongue-tie, sacral dimples, etc. The MTHFR gene polymorphism is related.

Food folate is a huge factor with MTHFR.


Pat

Maybe that's why it's a lost cause for us then since I'm pretty sure both of my kids have MTHFR. I did supplement with...I think 400 mcg of folate (Folapro) when I was pregnant with DS though.

[PreggieUBA2C]

Hm. That's interesting. I had to look up MTHFR and what I read was just a brief description. There's a lot going on there. I just popped in for a second, but thanks for your replies, Caedmyn and Wuwei. I'm going to read into some of what you've written because I am curious about my dp's and my own jaw issues.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by caedmyn

Maybe that's why it's a lost cause for us then since I'm pretty sure both of my kids have MTHFR. I did supplement with...I think 400 mcg of folate (Folapro) when I was pregnant with DS though.

I think MTHFR is a huge puzzle piece that fits our whole family history and is such a gift to know! Folate is practically a miracle nutrient for long-term health.

(ds got a double dose of MTHFR from dh and me)


Pat

[simplykate]

Would someone mind explaining what MTHFR is?
Alos, what is concentrace?
Thanks!

[WuWei]

Basically, a genetic mutation which doesn't utilize synthetic folic acid effectively. There are a lot of disorders and diseases associated with the blocked detox pathway due to food folate deficiency.


Folate and IgE allergies
MTFHR test question

REAL folate is much better than folic acid
Midline defects?
what causes midline defects?
Preconception care: Mineral Deficiency Test
mthfr?


Pat

[WuWei]

Concentrace.


Pat

[mama1803]

Originally Posted by WuWei

Concentrace.


Pat

I noticed that Concentrace contains trace amounts of mercury. Wouldn't this be a problem for those whose detox pathways are blocked because of mercury contamination?

I think it was in the big iodine thread that I read that Concentrace was the source of magnesium in the Natural Calm powder and that customer service at NC had confirmed the presence of mercury in their product. That caused a few responses. Does anyone recall that discussion?

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by WuWei

Basically, a genetic mutation which doesn't utilize synthetic folic acid effectively. There are a lot of disorders and diseases associated with the blocked detox pathway due to food folate deficiency.

I could be wrong, but my understand is that MTHFR is the name of the gene, and everyone has it (or maybe not everyone, but most people...not sure). It's the folate gene. A large percentage of the population has MTHFR polymorphisms, which are not mutations (mutations are by definition abnormal and when something like 1/3 of the population has a variation of MTHFR other than the most common one, it's a variation of "normal"/standard, not a "mutation"). Depending on which polymorphism someone has they can be more susceptible to certain diseases or autoimmune conditions, be more likely to have a baby with Down's syndrome or a neural tube defect, and/or have detox pathways that are less efficient in detoxifying certain things, including some food chemicals. That is my understanding anyway. People with certain MTHFR polymorphisms do need more folate (isn't folic acid the synthetic version of folate?), but you can only improve the function of the detox pathways up to a point...if your detox pathways inherently function less efficiently than standard, supplementing is probably not going to make them function as well as standard/"normal", just better than before.

[Koalamom]

We used lots of good A, D, K2, etc and my dd still ha crowded teeth. She is almost 3. We did manage to heal some cavities though with it!!

I do think that folate plays a big part in this healing and also healing/opening other detox pathways. My dd has loads of allergies and as we are working on gut healing, we are seeing changes in her health and her teeth don't look as crowded. My teeth are very crowded as well as dh's. I wonder if it will take several generations to fully straighten out. I have to be honest that I was dating before I met my husband and straight (naturally) teeth was on the requirement list just so we would have kids with straight teeth. But I guess love surpasses teeth.

Tanya, I am so nervous about giving dd zinc since when I have taken it in the past, it has make my stomach hurt terrible and made me more constipated than I have ever been in my life. It took me weeks for my stomach to fee better. Until then I am feeding dd tons of pumpkin seeds.

[stephienoodle]

Originally Posted by bluebirdmama1

Tanya, I am so nervous about giving dd zinc since when I have taken it in the past, it has make my stomach hurt terrible and made me more constipated than I have ever been in my life. It took me weeks for my stomach to fee better. Until then I am feeding dd tons of pumpkin seeds.

We used a zinc cream for DS. It did make his poop more firm (bordering on constipation), but I think that was because we used too much. It might be worth a try? It would bypass some of the GI issues potentially. I ordered it here: http://www.ourkidsasd.com/products/z...ate-Our%20Kids... because they have a trial size that is cheap to get a try for a couple of weeks.

[Theloose]

Is it safe to assume there's a high arched palate? I'd be looking first for a reason the tongue might not be resting on the roof of the mouth - possibly a tongue tie, or mouth breathing (or thumb sucking)?

In terms of detox pathways, yeah, people with an unlucky collection of polymorphisms (SNPs) will always be more prone to detox issues, but there's a lot you can do to improve things. For example, mercury is mostly cleared by sulfation, but it's toxic effects largely inhibit methylation above and beyond the genetic picture. Improving one can make a big difference in the backlog.

In terms of nutrients, have you been able to test things like b12 levels, or do JaneS's mineral taste tests? There's a lot of overlap in the food chemical detox pathways with nutrients for connective tissue and bone development, and the taste tests are relatively cheap and might provide some insight? (I just ordered my kit but haven't gotten it yet.)

[tanyalynn]

Originally Posted by bluebirdmama1

Tanya, I am so nervous about giving dd zinc since when I have taken it in the past, it has make my stomach hurt terrible and made me more constipated than I have ever been in my life. It took me weeks for my stomach to fee better. Until then I am feeding dd tons of pumpkin seeds.

I hadn't heard of constipation as a side effect, hmm... You _will_ get nauseous if you take a zinc supp on an empty stomach, I've accidentally done that to everyone in my household, but only once to a customer. I don't know what's going on with constipation, hmmm. I've used both zinc citrate and picolinate, but maybe we're just not sensitive in that way.

Originally Posted by caedmyn

I could be wrong, but my understand is that MTHFR is the name of the gene, and everyone has it (or maybe not everyone, but most people...not sure). It's the folate gene. A large percentage of the population has MTHFR polymorphisms, which are not mutations (mutations are by definition abnormal and when something like 1/3 of the population has a variation of MTHFR other than the most common one, it's a variation of "normal"/standard, not a "mutation"). Depending on which polymorphism someone has they can be more susceptible to certain diseases or autoimmune conditions, be more likely to have a baby with Down's syndrome or a neural tube defect, and/or have detox pathways that are less efficient in detoxifying certain things, including some food chemicals. That is my understanding anyway. People with certain MTHFR polymorphisms do need more folate (isn't folic acid the synthetic version of folate?), but you can only improve the function of the detox pathways up to a point...if your detox pathways inherently function less efficiently than standard, supplementing is probably not going to make them function as well as standard/"normal", just better than before.

The folic acid thing is part of the problem, people with the other MTHFR genes don't change folic acid into folate well. Most folks convert folic acid into folate, but it seems particularly unfortunate (understatement) that the people who need the folate most don't benefit from the most common form of supplement (which is also in the food supply, ugh).

I can only speak to my situation, what I see with myself and my kids and how it's influenced my overall understanding of detoxification. I don't think I am inherently, shockingly worse at detoxifying than the norm. I mean--if I were eating properly and didn't have amalgams in my mouth and I was careful about toxic exposures in the way that I think everybody in this world should be, I think I'd be okay, and my kids too.

For me, it's that cascade of badness that changed my life. I started off pathetic on nutrients (worse than average because these issues run in my family and so I started out with less nutrients and more mercury than most people) but it was the placement of those amalgams that jump-started a chain reaction. Most things can be excreted by a few chemical reactions, so say my zinc started out low, then the amalgams are put in and my methylation get clogged, folate's low, then anything that can use another pathway puts extra stress over there, it slows down, and that's the cascade.

I think re-setting to my baseline by filling up on nutrients while I get the metals out and actively work on getting out years of weird chemicals I accumulated, by the time I've done a reasonable job of that, and assuming I'm eating an appropriate diet, I think I'll do pretty good going forward. I think I'll always be more susceptible to metals than the next person, but I know I need to be more careful than most there.

Anyway, right now my faith is in this being fixable. But I'm still working on it, it's not done yet for either me or the kids, so I can't testify that it's done and successful.

[simplykate]

This is an interesting thread. I find it really confusing that diet can help one child so dramatically and it can still be so difficult for another.
I just have one 8 month old daughter, so of course I can't tell about her teeth yet, but her jaw is very broad and u-shaped so far, (mine is not, and neither is her dads, though his dads is) and she's had wonderful health so far.
The funny thing about this is is that I was freaked out about her having poor health for several reasons (1) I was really sick while I was pregnant and couldn't even eat for half of it (2) she was born via c-section due to the fact that I didn't dilate (3) I was recovering from an eating disorder when I got pregnant and had severe adrenal fatigue.
That being said, I was raised macrobiotics/ whole foods so had little to no sugar or processed foods, but also went periods of time with very little animal product. and i had very crooked teeth and a lot of cavities.
is she just healthy due to good genes from her dad?
so confusing!