My already low supply has dropped. :(

[Sk8ermaiden]

I have struggled with low suppy since the beginning. It could be a result of crappy genetics, or it could be to do with crappy circumstances surrounding the birth or beginning breastfeeding. Either way, it does not respond to traditional ways to up supply. I spent over 14 weeks taking supplements (sometimes over 50 pills a day, ugh), pumping after feeds, drinking ridiculous amounts of tea and staying skin to skin as much as possible.

This got me to about 20 oz. a day pumped (which is a good indicator for me.) She could get a tiny bit more than the pump, but not much. So I thought, once I got her exclusively nursing she would get maybe 22 oz. a day. NOTHING got me over 20 oz. a day of pumped milk.

It's been 4 months now that I have had her at the breast and she has been breastfed with about 8 oz. of supplement a day. I just did 24 hours of test weights - totaling 13 oz. of milk taken.

Her latch is great.

What happened?

I am going to take fenugreek again (even with 16 pills a day I never smelled like maple syrup, so maybe I will try more), because it is the only thing I ever took that increased my supply, although it was still only by an ounce a DAY. I have heard Fenugreek is most effective paired with other herbs - any suggestions? I will try the tea again, focus on drinking tons of water and maybe drink protein shakes every day and try a 24 hour weigh again in 5 days.

No wonder my poor baby has been wanting extra bottles more often recently lately. I am starving her.

(Please no friendly suggestions of Domperidone or breast compressions - I truly have tried everything and am getting really tired of telling people that yes, I've already done that. If it's a common remedy for low supply, I've already tried it. Dietary stuff however - if you have reason to believe a dietary change can help, then let me know! )

[RoseDuperre]

Do you have any theories as to why your supply is low? To recommend the right herb, it might help to know of possible causes. Any chance PCOS is a culprit?

[Sk8ermaiden]

Oh, so many theories.

My mom and my aunt both attempted to EBF on demand and were unable to due to low supply, so there is some fear of some random genetic thing.

I have suspected Hyopthyroid forever - have almost every symptom, but my levels are 100% normal by any scale.

I had serious high blood pressure after the birth (never before or since) - it kept me in the hospital for 5 days. I know that can affect supply.

I did not get her latched until day 5.

I did not get her latching consistently until week 8.

But the big red flag to me is that my breasts never grew in size. I am still wearing the same bras now that I did before becoming pregnant. I never had engorgement or fullness with milk coming in. (I know that some moms don't, but based on my reading it is unusual, especially for a first-time mom.)

I have some symptoms of PCOS, but not all - I suspect the oddities with my cycles have more to do with Estrogen-dominance from Hypothyroid, but could be wrong.

[Megan73]

I'm so sorry, mama. It just sucks to work as hard as you have, try everything and still have your supply drop.
Is it possible that your supply has dipped because your fertility is returning? In that case I would have to suggest dom - sorry! - because it keeps AF away.
As for herbs, none have every worked for me but there's lots of info in A Breastfeeding Mother's Guide to Making More Milk. It sounds to me like you suspect IGT, I think goat's rue was recommended to build breast tissue.
The one thing I would suggest is ditching the bottles and switching to an SNS or Lact-Aid.

[buckeye_bebe]

I'm with you in the 8439843 pills a day club. And man, I spent oodles of money. I found that some pumps were more effective in removing milk though, so maybe a pump change may be in order? Lactation consultants highlighted the need for relaxation and stress reduction, as well as physical and emotional stimulation. I had some good success incorporating visualization while pumping. Rivers and waterfalls of milk, oceans of milk waves, cows grazing, full of milk. I live on an alfalfa and citrus farm, so looking out over the alfalfa fields, I tried to imagine that this was where I was supposed to be, supposed to graze, and supposed to produce milk. I really did try to imagine I was a milk producing machine, like a cow. It helped. For nutrition, I ate oatmeal a few times a day, be it a bowl or a bar or baked. When it came to herbs, my credit card will show you that I took Fennel, fenugreek, blessed thistle, milk thistle, hops, alfalfa, and I don't remember what else. I'd have to check vitacost.com receipts. I don't know about the alfalfa, but fennel, fenugreek (until I stank), and one of the thistles plus hops really helped. I took a lot of domperidone.

Honestly, I spent a boatload of money on supplies, meds, herbs, pumps. But nothing worked by itself, and combined, I saw a lot of improvement. I saw the most improvement from adding a little wine before bed. On those nights, I would wake up engorged. I only got engorged if I had wine before bed. My grandfather suggested beer, the darker the better. Apparently the hops and vitamins plus alcohol is some magic remedy. I don't like really dark beer, but I'd drink 4 ounces with dinner (but not on wine nights) and it did help. The beer was in addition to the hops. I didn't wake up as engorged, but it did help. Aside from oatmeal, I ate things I thought....a cow or goat might eat. A lot of vegetables with fiber. Usually combined with protein and fat. My middle of the night nursing snack was cheese with crackers and grapes, and either water or milk. Oh, and drink milk to make milk helped me out too. A balanced combination of protein, fat, and whole grains in one sitting, with fruit/veg and fat the next seemed to help the most, as opposed to a meal of something low-fat or fat-free like a salad with broiled meat. That didn't help at all. A healthy dose of comfort food a few times a week was also soothing.

As for the stimulation ideas that consultants suggested, I made a boob book; a small booklet of baby pictures. They suggested I pump while smelling a onesie or blanket. Some had me pump while latched on, but I didn't have enough supply for a full meal. For physical stimulation, they suggested that eh...my partner be involved to stimulate let down. I think the idea was he could play a bit then I would pump, or he could eh...play with one while I pumped the other. That was a bit harder to wrap my head around.

My most important piece of advice would be two things. First, don't think your baby is only getting what you can get out from pumping by hand or machine. Your baby might be more efficient at emptying your breast than you are. Its their job, no matter how much research pump companies put in to understanding anatomy. Sure you can measure and weigh, but there is still some error and accuracy issues there. Second, take care of yourself first and foremost. Pay close attention to your nutrition and your emotional needs. I think an optimal mom makes optimal milk when baby is as awesome as you say. I say that second piece of advice because some of the more...aggressive lactation consultants I met with would completely ignore nutrition in favor of an aggressive pumping schedule. Their basic idea was that the more that is removed, the more that is made, without regard to a human's basic needs. Great in theory, not so much in practice. So time spent eating, sleeping, or peeing was time wasted. I was so exhausted from being a new mom that pumping throughout the night was making me downright psychotic.

Good luck. There are lots of things to try, but be patient. Some things improved my supply overnight, some things took a few days or weeks. Some things not at all. This time around I am going to include shatavari and vitex. We shall see. I'm rooting for you though.

[buckeye_bebe]

And one more thing. Your breasts might be fully functional without increasing size. Physiologic changes occur throughout pregnancy and nursing. So the tissue you had prior to pregnancy changed throughout pregnancy to prepare for nursing. It is possible that your tissue did not become fully functional and is returning to normal. It is certainly possible to have low or no supply from seemingly broken boobs. I'm just saying that your perceived lack of growth may not be related to supply issues. Hope you win!

[Sk8ermaiden]

Originally Posted by Megan73

I'm so sorry, mama. It just sucks to work as hard as you have, try everything and still have your supply drop.
Is it possible that your supply has dipped because your fertility is returning? In that case I would have to suggest dom - sorry! - because it keeps AF away.
As for herbs, none have every worked for me but there's lots of info in A Breastfeeding Mother's Guide to Making More Milk. It sounds to me like you suspect IGT, I think goat's rue was recommended to build breast tissue.
The one thing I would suggest is ditching the bottles and switching to an SNS or Lact-Aid.

Well, my period did come back one month ago, but I'm charting and am nowhere near AF with no signs of O. Will returned fertility in general cause a dip? I know AF will... I do still have Dom.

I do kind of suspect it - although it is hard to with Ds. I did start Goat's Rue right before I got her to the breast but I stopped. I don't remember why. It was either that I was so sick of pills or that everyone had me convinced my supply would jump once we got her to the breast. I will pick that one back up.

I LOVE that book. I love it so much that I bought another copy and donated it to my midwife's lending library. Going through it I made a HUGE list of things to do/not to do next time, but I was too far gone for a lot of the suggestions, and the rest I had tried already.

I know everyone suggests the SNS, but I just can't do it. It is so emotionally hard not to make enough...I don't know why, but taping tubes to my breasts is a line I just can not cross. It is too "abnormal" and I feel abnormal enough. Maybe if I really believed it would help I would do it, but nursing around the clock did not help and pumping for (literally) 20 hours a day did not help. I just don't think giving her the bottles at the breast will help.

Originally Posted by buckeye_bebe

I'm with you in the 8439843 pills a day club. And man, I spent oodles of money. I found that some pumps were more effective in removing milk though, so maybe a pump change may be in order?

I know! Part of the reason I quit trying things to up supply at 14 weeks was the sheer amount of money we had spent to be breastfeeding at all. I have the Freestyle, so it's pretty much the best non-hospital grade there is. Although I lent it to a friend and got an Avent Isis, which I honestly think is better. But that's a bit beside the point, as I rarely ever pump since I got her to the breast.

Originally Posted by buckeye_bebe

Lactation consultants highlighted the need for relaxation and stress reduction, as well as physical and emotional stimulation. I had some good success incorporating visualization while pumping. Rivers and waterfalls of milk, oceans of milk waves, cows grazing, full of milk. I live on an alfalfa and citrus farm, so looking out over the alfalfa fields, I tried to imagine that this was where I was supposed to be, supposed to graze, and supposed to produce milk. I really did try to imagine I was a milk producing machine, like a cow. It helped.

I have never tried visualization. I always thought that was for pumping moms who had trouble letting down for the pump. I have great letdown regardless. Do you think it helped your overall production? It might make me feel silly, but it can't hurt to try.

Originally Posted by buckeye_bebe

For nutrition, I ate oatmeal a few times a day, be it a bowl or a bar or baked. When it came to herbs, my credit card will show you that I took Fennel, fenugreek, blessed thistle, milk thistle, hops, alfalfa, and I don't remember what else. I'd have to check vitacost.com receipts. I don't know about the alfalfa, but fennel, fenugreek (until I stank), and one of the thistles plus hops really helped. I took a lot of domperidone.

I did oatmeal at least twice a day for the first 8 weeks. It didn't do anything, so I stopped it. I heard Blessed Thistle and Fenugreek together is supposed to be a good combo, so maybe I will try them. I'll try hops too. I took over the max dose of Dom with no result. I took it for a looooong time too.

Originally Posted by buckeye_bebe

I saw the most improvement from adding a little wine before bed. On those nights, I would wake up engorged. I only got engorged if I had wine before bed. My grandfather suggested beer, the darker the better. Apparently the hops and vitamins plus alcohol is some magic remedy. I don't like really dark beer, but I'd drink 4 ounces with dinner (but not on wine nights) and it did help. The beer was in addition to the hops. I didn't wake up as engorged, but it did help. Aside from oatmeal, I ate things I thought....a cow or goat might eat. A lot of vegetables with fiber. Usually combined with protein and fat. My middle of the night nursing snack was cheese with crackers and grapes, and either water or milk. Oh, and drink milk to make milk helped me out too. A balanced combination of protein, fat, and whole grains in one sitting, with fruit/veg and fat the next seemed to help the most, as opposed to a meal of something low-fat or fat-free like a salad with broiled meat. That didn't help at all. A healthy dose of comfort food a few times a week was also soothing.

I will try some wine, I guess, I would like it, but my budget will not! : I know the beer is an age old thing - my GMIL told my MIL when she had my husband, and she swears by it too. I tried it once while pumping, and did see an increase in output, but it only lasted that one session. So I figured I'd have to drink constantly to do any real good. (And man, do I hate beer!) Did you find your increase went away when you stopped, or did it stay?

Thanks for the diet suggestions - I will have to try to work on it. I definitely need more milk.

Originally Posted by buckeye_bebe

Good luck. There are lots of things to try, but be patient. Some things improved my supply overnight, some things took a few days or weeks. Some things not at all. This time around I am going to include shatavari and vitex. We shall see. I'm rooting for you though.

Vitex really? I have some of that hanging around too...

Thank you for such a long and encouraging post. I really appreciate it.

Originally Posted by buckeye_bebe

And one more thing. Your breasts might be fully functional without increasing size. Physiologic changes occur throughout pregnancy and nursing. So the tissue you had prior to pregnancy changed throughout pregnancy to prepare for nursing. It is possible that your tissue did not become fully functional and is returning to normal. It is certainly possible to have low or no supply from seemingly broken boobs. I'm just saying that your perceived lack of growth may not be related to supply issues. Hope you win!

I know it doesn't have to be! But the fact that it IS unusual in addition to the low supply definitely makes me think they're linked. And then the fact that basically EVERYTHING says that you can increase milk production in these bazillion ways - and not one single one of them would give me more than an ounce more a day, in any combination - well, it does make me suspect my boobs are broken. I am pretty sure the victory ship has already sailed, but I just want those 7 ounces back!!!

[lyterae]

I have IGT... I was taking fenugreek and blessed thistle and "more milk plus". I have heard good things about goats rue as well and plan to include it next time I'm nursing.

I'm sorry you're struggling, it's an awful spot to be in.


I believe that shatavari can NOT be taken with dom, I might be incorrect on that though.

[Sk8ermaiden]

I believe you're right on that. I think they are actually pretty much the same thing, although it's been a looong time since I read up on it.

[MaddieMay]

I don't have any other suggestions because you've been given great ones already, but I just want to say I think you are amazing. Most people (including myself) would probably have thrown in the towel completely a long time ago. I hope you get things figured out!

[Megan73]

Originally Posted by Sk8ermaiden

Well, my period did come back one month ago, but I'm charting and am nowhere near AF with no signs of O. Will returned fertility in general cause a dip? I know AF will... I do still have Dom.
...
I know everyone suggests the SNS, but I just can't do it. It is so emotionally hard not to make enough...I don't know why, but taping tubes to my breasts is a line I just can not cross. It is too "abnormal" and I feel abnormal enough. Maybe if I really believed it would help I would do it, but nursing around the clock did not help and pumping for (literally) 20 hours a day did not help. I just don't think giving her the bottles at the breast will help.

In my experience, the return of my fertility tanked my supply even before I got a period. Weaning off the dom was having no effect on my supply until I dropped to few enough pills that my fertility came back. So yeah, I do think for those of us with lower supplies that hormone shift may be enough to sink us even if women with good supply just notice a dip at AF.
I suggest the SNS for a couple of reasons, although you're right it likely won't do much to boost your supply if you're already pumping after every feed. I just wonder given that your supply has dropped, there might be the risk of your little one becoming less interested in the breast and doing less effective suckling.
I don't really get how the SNS is more "abnormal" than bottle feeding. It always made me feel more normal – I couldn't make enough milk for my babe but at least I could make sure he got all of his nourishment at the breast, which is what human babies are made to do.
FWIW, I never taped.

[RoseDuperre]

Originally Posted by Megan73

there's lots of info in A Breastfeeding Mother's Guide to Making More Milk. It sounds to me like you suspect IGT, I think goat's rue was recommended to build breast tissue.

Goat's rue was exactly what I had in mind. It is the best possible thing for moms with low supply due to things like PCOS or previous surgery. If the problem is not enough glandular tissue, fenugreek is hardly going to do anything at all. Fenugreek stimulates prolactin production. Without enough prolactin receptor sites, you can throw all the fenugreek in the world at the problem and it's not going to help very
much.

I do think it's still worthwhile to look into some other combination blends like More Milk Plus as well. But I would personally put a higher priority on getting goat's rue.

Originally Posted by Megan73

The one thing I would suggest is ditching the bottles and switching to an SNS or Lact-Aid.

Originally Posted by Megan73

I don't really get how the SNS is more "abnormal" than bottle feeding. It always made me feel more normal – I couldn't make enough milk for my babe but at least I could make sure he got all of his nourishment at the breast, which is what human babies are made to do.

Yes and yes! Though I recommend the Lact-Aid over the SNS a hundred times over, having done both.

I resisted the Lact-Aid too, for months and MONTHS. I do understand where you're coming from. But it was CLEARLY the thing that finally got us to being exclusively on the breast, no supplementation of any kind. Looking back, I honestly wish I had gone for it sooner instead of wasting so much time with counterproductive methods and considerable extra work.

For whatever it's worth, if you do go for it, I do recommend you do it soon, since your baby will soon become very distractable at the breast and it will make dealing with the tubing more challenging (though not impossible).

I wish you the best no matter what!

[cheryllynn]

I tried the dark beer - I actually really like dark beer. But the increase seemed just temporary and not a lot. By the end of the week my baby develped excema. I stopped the beer, used a natural lotion on her thighs were the excema was, and the excema was cleared up in about four days.

Cheryl