Why do you disagree with timeouts? - Page 3

[Anastasiya]

Originally Posted by One_Girl

That sounds like a punishment to me. Your dd does something you don't like, you isolate her, then talk to her about why she was punished and what to do next time. Consequences and punishment are the same thing, consequence is just a prettier word. Punishments/consequences are effective often very at stopping behaviors, that doesn't mean that it is something I agree with or would personally use in my home and it definitely doesn't mean that it is the only way to teach a child how to be thoughtful and considerate. People warn their kids and try to redirect them before they smack them to, that doesn't mean that there will be a bunch of people on the GD board calling spanking a gentle consequence rather than a harsh punishment . The use of warning and redirection doesn't change punishment into something loving and gentle.

See, I don't see it as punishment. I see it as discipline. Punishment is a negative consequence, and I don't think time outs are negative. I think of them as neutral. Neither good nor bad.

It's just plain discipline to me.

They serve the purpose of getting a child to cool down, back off and can help the child learn. Teaching a child that the way they are acting is inappropriate and hurtful and that right now, it's time to take a break from the situation and re-evaluate in a bit. In other words, I use them to teach. Not to punish.

[mamazee]

The negative thing is from the kids' point of view. So if they think it's neutral, then no it isn't really punishing to them. But if they think it's negative, then yes it is. It's more about how they respond to it than how we intend it, although I think that does make a difference as far as the continuum from more punitive to less, and from more gentle to less as well. And punishment is something that is used with the intention to teach, so intending to teach doesn't mean it isn't punishment.

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by mamazee

the negative thing is from the kids' point of view. So if they think it's neutral, then no it isn't really punishing to them. But if they think it's negative, then yes it is. It's more about how they respond to it than how we intend it, although i think that does make a difference as far as the continuum from more punitive to less, and from more gentle to less as well. And punishment is something that is used with the intention to teach, so intending to teach doesn't mean it isn't punishment.

ita

[Anastasiya]

Originally Posted by mamazee

But if they think it's negative, then yes it is. It's more about how they respond to it than how we intend it...

I guess I disagree. To me it's no more punitive than taking away a broom my son is repeatedly (though accidentally) hitting his siblings with. Sure, he may think it's punishment but that doesn't make it so. Heck, even "time-ins" can be considered punishment then, if that's how the child perceives it. Doing normal chores around the house can be "punishment." Even requiring buckling into car seats can be "punishment!"

So no, I don't think it's entirely how kids see things. If I base everything I do upon how my children perceive things then parenting would be near impossible.

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by Anastasiya

...then parenting would be near impossible.

It is.

[verde]

OP, this is definitely one of those topics with a wide variety of opinion. Personally I think time-outs can be part of gentle discipline. I, myself, have not used a time-out but that's because I haven't needed to; however, I am totally open to the concept and will experiment with time-outs if I deem it necessary. I think every child is an individual and for some time-outs work and for others, time-outs don't work. That's true WITHIN families as well.

I've seen wonderful parents use time-outs with their kids. Sometimes they use them for a short period of time and never use them again.

Parenting is one long experiment and you have to be flexible

[mamazee]

Originally Posted by Anastasiya

I guess I disagree. To me it's no more punitive than taking away a broom my son is repeatedly (though accidentally) hitting his siblings with. Sure, he may think it's punishment but that doesn't make it so. Heck, even "time-ins" can be considered punishment then, if that's how the child perceives it. Doing normal chores around the house can be "punishment." Even requiring buckling into car seats can be "punishment!"

So no, I don't think it's entirely how kids see things. If I base everything I do upon how my children perceive things then parenting would be near impossible.

It's a part of the puzzle. How we intend things is also part of the puzzle. I think kids probably put together "I hit sister with broom, broom is taken away" better than "I hit sister with broom, I get put in my room." Despite the nice rhyme. At least my kids seem to understand if I have to protect somene. Anyway, it comes from Alfie Kohn. One of the things he says is that if kids feel like it's a punishment, then from their point of view it is, and that perception matters more than our intent. Our intent matters as well, but as far as the child's response goes, their perception is a bigger issue.

And yes I'd agree that children can feel punished by time-ins, depending on the specifics. It isn't a black/white issue, which is why I said this stuff all seems to fall along a continuum.

And I will repeat that I think time-outs and other gentle punishments can definitely be a part of GD and AP. I just like to give the perspective of how I do things as just that, another perspective. Not the gospel of how all parenting should be for all kids. If I've come across that way, I apologize. Not my intent.

[One_Girl]

Originally Posted by mamazee

It's a part of the puzzle. How we intend things is also part of the puzzle. I think kids probably put together "I hit sister with broom, broom is taken away" better than "I hit sister with broom, I get put in my room." Despite the nice rhyme. At least my kids seem to understand if I have to protect somene. Anyway, it comes from Alfie Kohn. One of the things he says is that if kids feel like it's a punishment, then from their point of view it is, and that perception matters more than our intent. Our intent matters as well, but as far as the child's response goes, their perception is a bigger issue.

And yes I'd agree that children can feel punished by time-ins, depending on the specifics. It isn't a black/white issue, which is why I said this stuff all seems to fall along a continuum.

And I will repeat that I think time-outs and other gentle punishments can definitely be a part of GD and AP. I just like to give the perspective of how I do things as just that, another perspective. Not the gospel of how all parenting should be for all kids. If I've come across that way, I apologize. Not my intent.

I agree with all of this. If you have found a way to make time-out a neutral or positive thing in your child's eyes then that is wonderful. I have to question whether they really see it as neutral if you use warnings/threats of time-out in order to get them to change their behavior. I really recommend that you read some of Alfie Kohn's work. I love how it makes you question things and adjust what you do. It is very preachy, but it very good philosophical stuff. When my dd was younger I hated it and worried a lot about control and being in charge, but as my dd has gotten older and I have read more of his works I have started to really agree with a lot of what he says in his books. His book for teachers is especially well written after the first few chapters.

[SweetPotato]

I haven't read the whole thread, but we don't do time-outs (our dd is 4yo) because I find that she usually "acts out" when she's feeling unheard, uncounted, or unconnected. Forcing her to go sit by herself wouldn't help any of that- it would only maker her feel more separate and more angry. When I'm really upset about something, I know that I generally need a hug and some understanding while I cool down-- so these are what I try to provide to my daughter.

[PGTlatte]

Originally Posted by verde

Parenting is one long experiment and you have to be flexible

Love this !

[GoBecGo]

I'm wondering if i threaten now! If she is getting a bit out of control (and not just accidental hitting with a broom, in that instance i'd remind her to be careful with it and she would be, but she's nearly 4 so quite self aware once her attention has been drawn to something) i sit by her or offer her a hug (arms open motion) and ask "do you need to sit down and calm down a bit?" and sometimes she says no but takes a hug, and sometimes she says yes and goes off and shouts me to come with her and sometimes (if it's ME she's mad at) she stamps off to the stairs on her own with her cuddle-toy. Only about twice in the last year has she insisted that she doesn't need to calm down when she's behaving in a way which is escalating and cannot continue, but it's my fault for not identifying the moments when she was on the edge of losing control, once it's lost it's lost. In those instances i DID take her to the stairs, but i stayed with her unless she told me to go away, in which case i stayed close by.

Kids are so complicated, i should've got a goldfish! In fact goldfish are too complicated, i should've got a goldfish CRACKER

[Lohagrace]

Some kids will try to get heard and they will escalate until many parents shut them down with a punishment, such as time-out. My dd is one of those kids who will never stop escalating. She WILL be heard and she desperately wants to connect when she is that angry and out of control. To send her to her room in a "time out"--a traditional time out "You go sit there for x minutes" or even just a "go away from me until you calm down" only aggravates her needs to connect with me further. She will Bash her door, throw things, draw on the wall. In a "traditional" discipline household she's one of those kids who would be in time out a LOT and then would probably get spanked when she gets totally out of control and starts hitting people and destroying things.

I need to get to her underlying need, which in many cases seems to be a safe place to release pent up emotions. Maybe she saw something at school that upset her. Maybe her brother took her markers one too many times. Who knows. Often i have to lovingly, but firmly restrain her while she rages and have empathy for her. When she calms down she often cries and says things like "i say i hate you mommy but i dont hate you--i love you and don't want you to be mad at me!" When she opens up to me like that, i can see that her openess is only a result of me being willing to be with her and HEAR her no matter what emotion she is expressing or how angry she gets. I really try to get in her world. Sending her away from me only amplifies her feelings of "they don't love me/I'm a jerk". i KNOW for a fact this is how she experiences a "time out" because she has told me (when i've gotten too angry to be with her and made her go away from me, or i've walked away). She needs me to be available when she's scared and out of control.

I know a "let's calm down" thing is different from a time out. But for my dd, it has to be a "time in" with an adult. If i try to shut my door to her and put myself in time out she will break the door down or say "i'm writing on the waaaaaaalllll!" she'll do anything to elicit a reaction and a connection with me--even if its a negative connection.

I know a lot of kids who wont escalate. they will just shut down and go inside themselves and say "they don't want to hear me when i'm angry. I'm bad and wrong". On the outside, when this child emerges from a time out, they may appear calm, but on the inside they are left with the sense that its not ok to express negative emotions and that they are bad and need to be sent away. The inner life of a child is so complicated, i'm just beginning to see it as i have more empathy for my daughter and her strong emotions. Time outs do nothing to foster connection between us.