SO frustrated with potty learning.

[tolovemercy]

I'm clueless. Really, I have no idea what to do. DS1 is almost 3.5 and we have had exactly ZERO potty success. I mean, he has never once peed in the potty.

In the last year, I've attempted PLing a few times, but when he didn't catch on, I figured he probably wasn't ready, so I gave it a rest and tried picking it up again a few weeks/months later. Now that he's going on 3 1/2 and we're expecting our third, I'm feeling like it's time. I think he's completely capable.

So, I really have no clue how to teach him to use the potty. Here are the two approaches I've tried/done in the past:

1. Setting a timer and/or asking him frequently if he needs to pee or would like to go sit on the potty. I've done this for about 5-7 days at a time, and it really seemed to frustrate him because he didn't enjoy it and obviously, it never got us anywhere as far as successful potty trips go.

2. Leaving him in underwear and letting him learn by the way it feels--and gently explaining after he wets himself that next time he feels like that is about to happen, he can use the potty and he won't have to be wet. Then he cleans up the mess, puts his clothes in the hamper and puts on dry pants.

This, so far, has brought about the only minor improvements I've seen. In the last couple of weeks that we've been doing this, he's at least ONE time recognized, as he was peeing on the floor, that he "needs to go potty". And has started holding himself and "doing the potty dance", which lets me know that he DOES know how to hold it, but when we sit on the potty, nothing happens and he pees himself 30 seconds later.

So, we're going on week 4 here. I think if I could just get him to use the toilet ONCE, he'd take off. But I seriously have no clue what to do, and I'm getting really tired of it. Please help!!

[EzzysMom]

err Io don't have a boy nor a potty learned kid, but I've heard of putting cheerios or something to aim for in the tub or potty to make it more fun. Sounds like he needs to relax maybe on there? reading?

I'd put him on the potty, give him a lot to drink and read and sing until it happens!

[SallyN]

I've heard it's normal for boys to PL even later than 3.5. *hug*

I'd recommend Elizabeth Pantley's "No Cry Potty Training Solution"
http://www.pantley.com/elizabeth/books/0071476903.php

[tankgirl73]

Well, it's not uncommon, but I disagree that it's "normal" heh. It's become accepted, because diapers these days are so easy that we allow them to become diaper-trained and then it's very difficult for some kids to unlearn that.

We were in a similar situation when my son was that age... we at least had some success, but he wasn't fully trained until he was at least 4. It was exasperating, and I couldn't figure out why it hadn't "worked" -- I waited until he was ready, child-led, that's how to do it, right? That's how we did everything else, and it was fine, right?

The revelation that I had was that "child-led" only works with things that are instinctive and part of natural development. Learning to control one's pee is natural, but learning that FIRST you're supposed to pee in your clothes whenever and wherever you feel like it, and then LATER you shift naturally from that to NOT peeing in your clothes but only in certain receptacles and at scheduled times (by 'scheduled' I don't mean necessarily 'by the clock' but that you do have make deliberate times to go, it's not just 'whenever')... that's just not instinctive. We're not born programmed to shift from diapers to toilets, in other words.

That's what led me to EC with my daughter, which was fantastic.

Anyway, that may not seem like immediate practical help for you, but actually it is somewhat. The first thing to realize when potty-learning, is what a MAJOR paradigm shift it is for the child. It is unlearning a physical and psychological habit they have adapted to since birth, and learning a completely new one. Some kids seem to figure it out very quickly, and that can make us forget that it is not quick for other kids -- who are just more entrenched in their habits, perhaps. We come to think that there's a magic time when they're "ready" -- that there's a programmed age for it, and if we just wait for that and don't rush things, then it will be easy -- when that's really not it at all. The longer they pee in their clothes (ie, diapers), the more entrenched the lesson becomes that this is where they're supposed to pee, and the more detached they become from their body signals (because it doesn't matter).

When we understand this, we are first of all more understanding and less frustrated if we have one of those kids that doesn't 'get it' instantly. And secondly, we get a few more ideas of how to help them 'get it.'

So here are some practical suggestions, based on what I've learned from EC.

The biggest thing is that you need to take the reins. He needs guidance to learn the connections. It won't work (it does for some kids, but not for all) to just leave him in underwear and let him figure it out. He needs more clues and more assistance.

So, leave him in underwear -- or, even better, naked when possible. If he pees on the floor, don't see it as a failure, see it as a learning opportunity for BOTH of you. Ask yourself if you saw any signs of the impending pee. It might take many pees before you notice a pattern. Maybe he wiggled a certain way, or got grumpy, or vocalized, or moved to a corner. Maybe you'll see he pees regularly 15 minutes after eating, or every hour, or other patterns based on timing. Through this whole learning time, floor pees are not failures, it's just so that you can actually see what's happening when he does pee.

During this time, when he does pee on the floor, you can sit him on the potty as soon as you notice. You might get some in the potty, you might not. Again, at this point that isn't the goal - the goal is observation. Getting some initial connection with the idea of "pee=sitting on potty" is also good, but don't worry if they don't yet coincide, it's just making initial connections.

Then when you have some ideas of his signals and timing, you can start to be pro-active instead of re-active. Don't ask him if he 'wants' to go sit on the potty. Tell him it's time to go sit on the potty. You should start getting some pees in the potty, and then he'll start making more connections. Eventually, he'll start figuring out his own body signals again... "oh, that funny feeling I get means I have to pee". But until then, you need to take the lead.

Another tip is that it doesn't have to be a potty -- just anything OTHER THAN peeing in his pants (this is why naked is better than underwear -- peeing in underwear is still the same feeling as peeing in a diaper, other than the wetness afterwards. Peeing in 'open air' is a very different feeling.) Maybe peeing onto a cloth diaper or towel on the floor, peeing standing up in the bathtub, peeing outside, peeing in the sink, peeing on the big toilet... anything where the pee is 'free' and obvious.

If, while he's still learning, he only wants to pee standing up in the bathtub, then go for it! As long as he's learning some control and some connection over the process, then it's all good.

Anyway... I hope that helps a bit. Your other option, of course, is to just leave him in diapers until he decides he wants to pee in the toilet. That WILL happen eventually, even if you do nothing. You don't see 10-year-olds in diapers. But it might still be awhile, and of course changing diapers sucks heh.

EDIT TO ADD: I also meant to mention. A great time for an almost-guaranteed pee catch is first thing when they wake up in the morning. Now I'm not sure if this is still as reliable with a 3.5yo as with a younger baby, but it's worth a try. I know my daughter, who is just over 3 now, will be dry all night, then not pee for several hours in the morning sometimes. But she's also been "trained" for a long time now (since we ec'd). When she was younger, the morning pee was always a guarantee. With an older child who has grown used to peeing their sleep (which they actually don't do at first), it might not be... I'm not sure... but it's worth a try.

[sapphire_chan]

Also, something that made things click for a dd of a friend, is does he know that you guys had to learn how to use the potty too? My friend's dd literally wouldn't even *try* the potty until they read a book that talked about how "mommy had a potty" and then she got : "mama have potty?" "yes, sweetie, mommy had a potty" "dada have potty?" "yes, daddy had a potty" "Ohhhhhh" and then she was willing to go for it.

She'd gotten the idea that everyone else just *knew* when to use the potty without trying. As soon as she found out that she wasn't the first person ever to have to work at it she basically got confidence that she could do it.

[Monkey Keeper]

ITA with first thing in the a.m. and after naps being great times to catch a success!

Also, what is in it for him? We found that positive reinforcement has been key to training both of our girls. More DD2 than DD1, but that's because she's more food motivated. Horrible to use pet training terminology for children, but true. In the beginning, she would force out the tiniest bit of pee for a chocolate chip! Dangling the proverbial carrot gives the kid an incentive. Otherwise, you're just disrupting their "normal" and making it more difficult for them. Introducing something "fun" into the mix like peeing in the bathtub or outside or trying to pee on Cheerios is a great way to interest him as well.

Good luck!

ETA: The book suggestion is great! There are some great books about PLing out there as well as DVDs.

Also, an added bonus is that your DS is old enough to take in everything you're helping DS1 learn. My DD2 is not yet 26m and is pretty reliably trained with some reminders, all because she decided she wanted to be. I firmly believe it's because DD1 didn't train until she was nearly 3, and DD2 remembers it!

[tankgirl73]

Ooh now there's a thought. Kind of reverse of what PinkBunch said. If you start pottying your almost-2yo, using most of the same tricks (look into "late-start EC" for more tricks and tips), odds are your older kid will either catch on by default, or by sibling rivalry. Around 2yo is a great time for late-start pottying, it seems to frequently be a 'window of opportunity'. You could kill two birds with one stone!

And if things go fairly well with the younger one (in all honesty, the younger they are, the easier it is to get in tune with their rhythms), there's a great chance the older one will get more motivated so as not to be 'shown up' by his younger sibling!

And building on what sapphire_chan said... If you haven't been doing it already, make sure that your kids have full access to you using the bathroom yourself. We lose a lot of modesty as parents of young kids lol... But anyway, in order for them to understand that the goal is to pee and poo in this toilet thing, they have to actually see it in action. Otherwise it's just this abstract concept that's foreign to them. From their little worldview, diapers is all that's "real".

When they actually see older people using the toilet all the time, as a matter of normalcy, then they understand that's what they want to do, too. They love to imitate the big people!!! Maybe you've been doing this already, but it's one of those things that sometimes people forget so I thought I'd mention it.

[rightkindofme]

My good friend is the oldest of 6 and there was a big gap between her and the second kid so she remembers the toilet training of all of her siblings. She said the thing that helped the most with her siblings is that every time they had an accident it became a huge production involving a full bath and that interrupts play time. She said the kids potty learned just because they were sick of taking baths and it never took longer than a week.

Now I can't say that is what has worked for me because we did EC. So yeah, but that's the best I can offer. Good luck!

Probably worth pointing out that this was a very GD/AP family. There was zero shaming involved in the baths. It was just very matter-of-fact, "Ok you pottied! Not a big deal, let's go clean you up."

[mtbmomma]

Usually a lurker here, but I figured I would reply. In my experience working as a teacher in preschools and daycare centers, I would recommend getting him around other boys his age who are using the potty. Maybe some of his friends or something. Often at that age seeing that other children do something makes them want to do it too. Especially when they realize how much faster it is then having a diaper changed! Learning to pee outside also worked well for all my nephews, but may not be the best idea in the winter! Although he might just enjoy the idea of drawing in the snow.

[tolovemercy]

Thanks so much, ladies. All of this advice and info is SO very helpful and gives me alot of hope. Definitely would like to get both boys done at once.

Will be back with reports. Thanks again, wise mamas!!

[tolovemercy]

Update:

Potty SUCCESS! Based on observing DS1 closely yesterday afternoon, I was able to anticipate his need to go this morning around lunch time. Had him go try 3 or 4 times in a 10 minute span--aiming at a pretzel in the toilet. And, next thing I know, he goes, "hey everybody, i'm peeing in the potty!"

[PluggingAway]

Woo Hoo!!!!

[Monkey Keeper]

AWESOME!!! Go little man!! (And Momma--for persevering!)

[tolovemercy]

Just updating again because I'm so EXCITED:

After our initial success yesterday, it totally clicked. We had three more pees in the potty, one intentional pee on the kitchen floor (wouldn't really count as an 'accident' if he says, "I'm going to pee right here!"--would it?) AND, a successful poop on the potty! Totally thrilled. Had a celebratory dinner/play night out at a questionable but very fun fast-food restaurant.

Feeling much more confident about DS2 as well--he seems to really have a consistent pattern that I'm trying to catch on to, but have yet to succeed at getting to the toilet in time.

Anyway, thank you, thank you, thank you ladies for taking the time to help me out. It is SO appreciated.

[NatalieMS]

this is a relief, excuse the pun

My son will be 4 next month and we've had nearly no success with the potty. He's straight up NOT interested. I'm ordering the books you guys have mentioned right now, but I have to say it feels nice just to read that there are other people going through this with their stubborn little guys!

[Neera]

Congratulations. Just thought I'll add some ideas that have helped us. DD was on & off with her pl and finally, and since she knew the concept already, just went cold turkey 2 mths ago. Had her in pants though. She is pee-trained but, we haven't yet had any luck with poop as she was partly constipated even in diapers. We have started a Dr. Shcultz natural formula for the poop which is helping but she is not yet going in the potty. This second time round I decided to give some books a shot too. Here are the list of books that have helped us. Listing them in order of her favs:

- Uh oh! gotta go! : potty tales from toddlers
- Where's the poop?
- The potty book for girls (there's one for boys)

And I'm still reading:

Stress-free potty training : a commonsense guide to finding the right approach for your child

As she started getting trained, she has started noticing other kids in her toddler program going to the bathroom and that defintely motivates her as she does like to imitate other kids. This morning we had our first dry pull-up.

[Dov'sMom]

Just want ot chime in to agree with the PPs who talked about making sure hte kids know that it's normal to have to work at it.

I have one DS who uses the toilet, and our experience with him was pretty much child-led. At around 2.5 he started telling us he needed to urinate, and of course, whenever he did, we sat him on a toilet. For about a week he'd ask once a day. The next week he asked multiple times a day and we started asking him also every once in a while. After he anticipated nearly every pee for two-three days, we bought him underwear.

Maybe two hours after putting his underwear on for the first time, I asked him if he needed the bathroom, and he said no. Not 10 minutes later he had an accident in his underwear and as I took him upstairs to clean him and get him a new pair of underwear, he threw a screaming tantrum about how he didn't want underwear, only diapers, no more toilet, no more potty, diapers, diapers, diapers. I held him tight until the energy was spent and started talking to him about accidents. The conversation went something like this: "You had an accident. That's what it's called when someone who is not wearing a diaper urinates on the floor or on a chair by mistake. Did you know that happens to everyone at some point?" He looked up. "When Mom learned how to use the bathroom, she used to have accidents sometimes, and Grandma had to clean them up! And when Dad learned how to use the bathroom, he also had accidents sometimes." He didn't look convinced. "You know X? (the son of a friend of ours that my son really looks up to) When X was learning how to use the toilet, he had an accident and he urinated on Mom's foot!" "He did? He urinated on your FOOT?" "Yup! And you know what we did? We got a towel, and cleaned up the mess, and X got a new pair of underwear and now he wears underwear all the time. He had some more accidents in between, but now he's gotten used to the underwear and he hardly EVER has accidents anymore."

DS slid off my lap and got me a new pair of underwear right then and there. It was incredible what that one conversation did for his self-confidence. We had plenty more accidents in the next couple of weeks, especially until we realized that he just wasn't ready for underwear overnight, but he never again asked for diapers.

[ehunter27]

Thank you thank you thank you for this thread. I am feeling so much better about our potty struggles just reading it...

Here is our long-winded version.

About ten months ago, when DS was nearing 2.5, I started giving him some language around the bathroom. I talked about peeing, and twice, on warm spring/summer days, he did leave our porch to pee in the grass. I think this was our "window".

The next week, I had to start work 30 hours a week, for financial reasons. DS went to a toddler room and DD a baby room. DS had a tough tough time, for the first 15 weeks he would become somewhat hysterical when he first woke up in the a.m. on his two daycare days. Unfortunatley, I left the house at 6 a.m., so I was not there to comfort him. The daycare toddler room didn't have a bathroom, so all kids HAD to wear diapers. DH and I decided that we'd wait a bit, and not force things, as DS was having an awful time with the changes.

Well, DS finally got comfortable in the toddler room. Then, about 4 weeks later, he had to move to the preschool room, b/c it was Sept and a lot of kids had left to go to kindergarten. He had a couple weeks before he was even 3! Anyway, he struggled again, so we held off the potty training. In December, we pretty much decided to wait until February, when I would switch jobs, to just have me home for a few weeks and really try to potty-learn.

Anyway, here we are. DS has complete control...I think...of his bowel/bladder. But, he has yet to pee or poop on the potty....EVER! We've tried to be so positive and affirming...but it gets so frustrated. I feel like we missed our window. 18 month old DS has peed on the potty a couple times over the last few days....I don't know if it is luck or just that she is not nervous about it...

I did have some luck today, as DS has been holding it, holding his penis, etc. when we take pants off. He even runs over to the cloth diaper bin and sort of asks for one to use...which I am not into letting him, as I want to be done diapers at our house. However, I held one in front of him, and he did pee in it. Not too bad, but he didn't replicate it later...

I have also offered the tub, outside, etc. He will wet his pants outside, which he won't do in the house. I don't care about messes, etc. or whether or not he can aim. I just want him to learn to relax enough to let the pee out.