Under ehat circumstances would you consider early entry for kindergarten - Page 2

[Wild Lupine]

Another side of all this is that as kids get older, they expect their rules to be in line with the kids they go to school with. So kids expect to have a cell phone, have facebook account, boyfriend, etc., when their *peers* at school do, not when other kids their age do. In this day and age, I don't know why any parent would want their child to be the youngest when middle school rolls around. This is hard stuff anyway. Why do it with a younger child than you have to?

Yes, excellent factor to take into account. Kids grow up way too fast these days, and the pressure to be into age inappropriate (in my opinion) media and technology is intense. On my daughter's third birthday another mother expressed surprise that DD was still into Barney. We had just let her start watching very limited amounts of TV a month earlier; was she supposed to have outgrown Barney by her third birthday?! I'd like to shield my kids from the pressure to be sophisticated as long as possible.

Originally Posted by CyclingMom

I'm glad that it worked out the way it did because I got an extra year with her and she still is getting placed where I believe she belongs in the fall. I can't imagine her as a 6 year old kindergartener. Some people disagree with my decision, but the reality is that I know my kid (and you know your kid) better than anyone else and only you can decide. I've seen lots of opinions on this topic and lots of generalizations, but the research doesn't support that being older is better.

Yeah, even though I'm leaning towards entering her at the correct time for our school district, that's what I am facing, a six year old kindergartener. Her birthday is the first week of November.

The value of threads like this is that they really help me clarify my thinking. So thank you everyone- and keep the opinions and experiences coming because I am by no means done thinking about it!

But I've realized through writing this is that my bigger, more immediate issue is that she didn't make the preschool cut off this year. We cannot afford private preschool at the moment, and it is a lottery for the public preschool. So she may not get into any school until two months before her sixth birthday, which just seems too late given how social and inquisitive she is. She's already looking for more stimulation, both academic and social. I have some home school supplies and do what I can, but I cannot imagine two more years of this. Maybe what I need to do is figure out a very inexpensive way of enriching her socially and academically for the next two + years.

[SunshineJ]

CyclingMom we were in MO too where they wouldn't let DS in because he was 35 hrs shy of meeting the age cutoff. However, as we were moving last summer and I was doing a lot of digging on school requirements and comparisons I actually found something in the MO state legislature that states school districts are allowed to make exceptions. I'm not sure if it was in certain areas only or what, but I was pretty steamed because our school was one of them. Yet they told me there was no way. :mad

Onemoment, because the preschools in our former area all followed the official state cutoff, DS couldn't attend preschool until he was 4. At 3 he started begging me to go to preschool, so I basically did a homeschool preschool program with him for about an hour through the day and he loved it. Just something you may want to consider.

[Peony]

Our DD's are just a couple weeks apart, DD2 was born Oct 23 and my state has a cut off of Oct 1st. She is big for her age but development wise, she is normal. She is also 3 right now so we have a couple years but I already know I am not going to start her early. I was the very youngest in my grade growing up, I made the cut off by 2 weeks, and HATED it in middle/high school. Everyone else was older and got to do so much more then I was allowed to do. Although I did always enjoy finding the oldest guy I could to bring home to my parents....

While it would be nice if DD2 could go early, I do work part time and the whole sitter thing is always interesting, I know that she won't be ready to be in school all day at that point. She could probably go if I wanted her to, DD1 goes to private school and DD2 will go there as well and I know if I asked that she could be the earlier class, but it will still be there that next year!

[CyclingMom]

SunshineJ, my recollection is that the districts that border IL and KS (so St Louis and Kansas City areas) are allowed to have a different cut off (I guess to align the states they border). Our district would have been allowed to make exceptions, but I have been told that NO district in St Louis will make exceptions. I suspect the worry is that if they make 1 exception then they open up the door for everyone that wants an exception to start requesting one.

The way we got around the cut off is that different districts have different rules for entry into upper grades. Some allow a child to do a private K eaerly entry and go straight into first, others require the child to do private K and private first and then transfer in to 2nd grade. Fortunately for me, my district is actually willing to consider a child who was homeschooled for K, so that was the route we took. I firmly believe that if I hadn't had high test scores when I approached them that I would have received a somewhat different reception.

Angie

[SunshineJ]

Originally Posted by CyclingMom

SunshineJ, my recollection is that the districts that border IL and KS (so St Louis and Kansas City areas) are allowed to have a different cut off (I guess to align the states they border). Our district would have been allowed to make exceptions, but I have been told that NO district in St Louis will make exceptions. I suspect the worry is that if they make 1 exception then they open up the door for everyone that wants an exception to start requesting one.

The way we got around the cut off is that different districts have different rules for entry into upper grades. Some allow a child to do a private K eaerly entry and go straight into first, others require the child to do private K and private first and then transfer in to 2nd grade. Fortunately for me, my district is actually willing to consider a child who was homeschooled for K, so that was the route we took. I firmly believe that if I hadn't had high test scores when I approached them that I would have received a somewhat different reception.

Angie

I knew it was something like that - we were in a KC suburb. Where we were, the child had to be 5 by July 31 for kindy AND 6 by July 31 for 1st. If your child was in a private school for 1st when they'd have been in kindy in public, when you transferred in they would test your child and could still put them back in 1st. Because, you know, all kids learn, grow and accelerate at the exact same ages of course, right?

[eepster]

Originally Posted by CyclingMom

We ended up homeschooling this year. I had her tested for a magnet gifted school last month and then I turned around and took those gifted scores to my local school. I explained that we were homeschooling and showed them the scores and they will be enrolling her into 1st in the fall rather than K.

Why aren't you sending her to the gifted magnet school. Wouldn't the magnet school which will not just be giving her more advanced work but also work that is more in depth/complex and where she is with intellectual peers be a better fit than the local school where she can only get the slight advancement of one year?

[eepster]

Originally Posted by onemomentatatime

I'm familiar with the research about holding kids back, but haven't heard it apply to delaying entry, just holding them back once they've started. Are you aware of reserch about delaying entry? But this is a little OT because DS has a long way to go so it's premature to be thinking about him yet.

http://www.slate.com/id/2196423
http://journal.naeyc.org/btj/200309/DelayingKEntry.pdf

Searching this forum for "redshirting" will bring up tons of past debates we have had on the subject of delayed kindergarten.

[peaceful_mama]

My thoughts on starting early:

I have a child who turned 5 in October in a state where the cutoff is Sept. 1
He was starting to read and write last year in preschool, by the end of summer/beginning of this school year, he could read pretty much any child-level book in my house. (Read=both decoding words on a page and answering simple questions to show comprehension. The ability to decode words on a page is pretty useless if you can't also interpret the meaning. I could probably "read" a medical textbook, but with little knowledge of medical terminology, I wouldn't be able to use the info.)

He sounds out words and writes at what I consider to be a solid first-grade level with my past experience working in the schools here. I don't exactly know his reading level, but I would guess it to be well into first grade easily.

I am HAPPY he is not going into K until next year, even though he will be far ahead academically.

Why? Because until recently, we're talking the last six weeks, he was the kid who 'messes things up.' He didn't really know how to enter into a group of kids without disrupting the play that was already happening.
He chose to play alone a lot--puzzles, his writing (which he LOVES). Things like that.

He goes to school on an IEP due to some language delay that has now caught up. Back in Nov. his teacher wrote him the goal of entering a group of kids without disrupting play.
Just two weeks ago, we had conferences--she said that just in the past few weeks, he has started to play so much more with the other kids and she can see those social skills coming into place.

If he was in kindergarten this year, the other kids in the class likely would have been annoyed at this behavior and 'labeled' him. In preschool, he's one of the older kids. The younger kids don't have the same "expectations" the older kindergarten kids would have. AND....he gets to take on that "older kid" role which I think is a huge confidence builder for him. Things like--he's sort of adopted a younger classmate as his little buddy. The child has some obvious special needs and cries quite a bit...my son is the "big friend" who goes to help get him off the bus most days at school, holds his hand and walks with him! I think that is so sweet and it's just not something he'd get to do as the "youngest." (nobody FORCES that on him, certainly if he doesn't want to he doesn't HAVE to, but the teachers will 'remind' him--and I think it's SO GOOD for both the kids--my son gets to learn compassion for this little boy--and the little one seems to really enjoy having a 'buddy.' )

Wow this is a moment where I'm just being overwhelmed with love for my sweet ds1! I know--from past experience in preschool--that not too many kids take on that role of the "big buddy" for the youngest or child with special-needs in their class. I always loved seeing 'that kid' emerge in my preschool class and I am just so HAPPY to be "that kid's" mom now! this is a moment where I really feel I've done something right--I'm the mom of the kid who looks out for the ones who need it the most. r

Anyway back to this post and advanced or delayed kindy!

My thought is keep her back to the year she is supposed to start by the law. It's often impossible (is here) to get the early start anyway, and there are SO MANY WAYS to enrich them and give them social opportunities without spending a lot of money!
I have a dd too who just turned 3 in Jan. She wants to go to school SO BAD like her brother. She is able to sit in the circle and loves to sing songs and all that. We've visited her brother's school and the way she joins in you'd never pick her out as not part of the class.
She can't go till August. That's IF she gets in then, they take 4 year olds first and kids who are still 3 get what's left, according to the date they went on the list and family need. (so a non-english speaking child who came in months after my dd could get in ahead of her, because the kid needs more time in 'school' to learn English for k)

My dd loves library storytime, for free. We go to free playgroups in community centers in town. We *could* sign up for dance or gymnastics I suppose, I haven't priced the lessons out. But I'm sure they are much less expensive than full-on preschool and tons of fun and social interaction.

Plus, kindy here is full-day, that is a LONG LONG day for a young child even when they are the oldest in the class, especially in the beginning.

Let her be little, find some lessons and fun activities. K comes soon enough!

[Wild Lupine]

Originally Posted by eepster

http://www.slate.com/id/2196423
http://journal.naeyc.org/btj/200309/DelayingKEntry.pdf

Searching this forum for "redshirting" will bring up tons of past debates we have had on the subject of delayed kindergarten.

Thanks for those links. They were very well-written and interesting articles. I didn't see anything in them about children like my son though, with significant motor skill delays (we're not talking just small or immature, he has medical issues and reaches physical milestones very, very late). I imagine a few years from now we'll be faced with sending a kid off to K who cannot yet hold the pencil well enough to write, or button his own coat for recess, or carry the lunch tray, or toilet independently, but who is intellectually and socially astute enough to realize the other kids can do all those things. Any data on whether it's more beneficial to put a child into school at that point with a 504 plan to address his needs, or keep him home (with PT, OT and homeschooling, so still meeting his needs) until his motor skills catch up? You might see a thread about this in a few years when he's getting close to K age!

[CyclingMom]

Originally Posted by eepster

Why aren't you sending her to the gifted magnet school. Wouldn't the magnet school which will not just be giving her more advanced work but also work that is more in depth/complex and where she is with intellectual peers be a better fit than the local school where she can only get the slight advancement of one year?

For 2 reasons: 1) I wanted her to be involved in our local community and have friends down the street to play with, which wouldn't have happened with the magnet since it's 19 miles away and she would be gone 8:15:4:45). 2) She didn't get a slot! There were a lot more qualified applicants than there are spots (2 classes of 20, though there are already kids rising up from the preschool classes filling spaces, leaving the remaining for the people were not eligible to apply to the preschool, which we were not.). We made our decision prior to finding out our status at the school, but either way, our decision would be the same.

In reality, I suspect that being a 1st grader in a regular PS with a gifted pull out will be just as challenging as being a kindergartner in a gifted school. Down the road that may not be true, but at least for the first couple of years when I believe the focus with be on the 3 R's in both places, she will be okay. At this point, I'm glad I have something I'm reasonably happy with for next year. I will start worry about the future when I start to see that this situation is not working out.

[nichole]

My ds will be 5 on Sept 17 and is missing the cutoff by 17 days. I do think he is advanced and will have him tested if he seems ready. If he is not ready or doesn't pass the test, I am cool with that. But I mean COME ONE, 17 days...I do understand that one year can make a big difference, but I feel like it gets to a point that it becomes ridiculous.

I think I'm more in shock than anything. Maybe I will put him in a really nice preschool and get a job. Maybe we will just enjoy the extra year together and do lots of activities. He is 3 right now. I have to decide to put him in a 3yo preschool or a 4yo preschool program in the fall. I guess I will ask the preschool what they think.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by onemomentatatime

I didn't see anything in them about children like my son though, with significant motor skill delays (we're not talking just small or immature, he has medical issues and reaches physical milestones very, very late). I imagine a few years from now we'll be faced with sending a kid off to K who cannot yet hold the pencil well enough to write, or button his own coat for recess, or carry the lunch tray, or toilet independently, but who is intellectually and socially astute enough to realize the other kids can do all those things. Any data on whether it's more beneficial to put a child into school at that point with a 504 plan to address his needs, or keep him home (with PT, OT and homeschooling, so still meeting his needs) until his motor skills catch up?

This is a totally different question. You are asking if homeschooling or school is better for a child with special needs. If you look through old threads here and on the special needs boards, you'll find lots of experiences and thoughts on the subject.

The reason it is a completely different subject than "redshirting" is that red shirting is done in hopes that the child will catch up and that it is just a time and maturity issue, but homeschooling a child with special needs is done because the parent believes that homeschooling is a better option for the child than school.

Special needs kids are generally considered in their "age appropriate" grade without regard to actual ability. Doing otherwise means that the child is older and larger than all the other kids, and yet still behind them.

All children's motor skill continue to develop throughout childhood. The typcially developing child who can carry a lunch tray and hold a pencil at 5 can do all sorts of other things at 8. Kids with motor delays usually eventually learn to do those basic things, but the more complex things they may never learn. They are on a different path.

Whether homeschooling or school is better for such a child is tough call for a parent. One of my kids has mild special needs and homeschooled until she was 12. She now attends public school. There are pros and cons each way and there aren't any easy answers. I'm not sure if I've made the right choices for her all the way along. This is complex stuff and anyone who thinks there are easy answers hasn't been there.

I wouldn't, however, recommend "homeschooling until he catches up." It would put a tremendous burden on you and him. When the time comes, look at the options you have and figure out what is the best placment for him for the year. Where do you think he would learn the most? Where would he be happiest? What would be best FOR YOU?

One of my friends sons is profoundly autistic and is toilet training in Kindergarten. It goes much better on school days because he is on such a set schedule and has a personal assistent at school. Attempting to homeschool such a child would deny them structure and support, and deny the mother a VERY needed sanity break.

[Hey Mama!]

My oldest dd missed the cutoff in TX by 17 days. She is gifted and at the time she was seeing a psychologist because of behavioral issues. He asked us about school entry and we told him she missed the cutoff. He encouraged us to move to a neighboring district that would be willing to grant her early entry-too bad it was too rich for us. He thought she was acting out because she was so bored. I looke into private school, one would take her early for kindergarten but it was $3,000 for K, and she'd have to go 1st there as well and it jumped to $6,000 then. So, needless to say she did not go. Now, she is top of her class and doesn't really receive instruction. She does her work, then reads probably half of her school day away. She's every teachers dream. She outperforms her cousin who is only 3 months old, but who is in 3rd grade. All because of a cutoff age.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by onemomentatatime

Thanks for those links. They were very well-written and interesting articles. I didn't see anything in them about children like my son though, with significant motor skill delays (we're not talking just small or immature, he has medical issues and reaches physical milestones very, very late). I imagine a few years from now we'll be faced with sending a kid off to K who cannot yet hold the pencil well enough to write, or button his own coat for recess, or carry the lunch tray, or toilet independently, but who is intellectually and socially astute enough to realize the other kids can do all those things. Any data on whether it's more beneficial to put a child into school at that point with a 504 plan to address his needs, or keep him home (with PT, OT and homeschooling, so still meeting his needs) until his motor skills catch up? You might see a thread about this in a few years when he's getting close to K age!

Special needs is a whole different issue than just normal redshirting. One of the big argument against redshirting children who are already slightly behind is that they may actually have special needs that won't change in the year held out, but also aren't being diagnosed and helped as soon. It's great that you are already know about and are seeking help for your DS's motor delays, but once he is in school he can receive additional services through the school.

If your DS is still significantly delayed in motor skills you will be able to set up various accomodations with the school system to help him function as well as possible. That may be simple things like a hand brace, or a special pencil grip or it may be more complex like a special desk or a computer for him to type his work. In many schools an occupational therapist can actually come to the school and work within the classroom to make sure your DS is able to function in class. He may even qualify for a public preschool that will start those kinds of services for him early. If by school age his motor delays seem to be specific to gross motor and not really related to fine motor (he's still a toddler at this point, right? so hard to predict where he'll be is 2 or 3 years) possibly all he'll really need is to go to a physical therapist at gym time.

There is no need to keep an intellectually normal child out of school b/c of a physical disability.

Homeschooling is a totally different matter. It may be one you choose for any number of reasons; the accomodations the school insists on providing re inappropriate, you discover the school is just generally a poor fit for your family, etc.

[pranamama]

one of my dd got in early, she had to take a private test $$, she loved kindy and had a great experience there. At the end of the year, the teacher said it was good that she had gotten in that year. I am happy with the situation, even though I kinda did it because I wanted my kids at the same school LOL

[ChristaN]

The link re holding out age eligible kids from NAEYC was already posted, so I'll skip that conversation since it sounds like there is more going on there for your ds than just being younger.

In re to your dd, I'd look at it from the same perspective as I would when considering skipping a child a grade. The Iowa Acceleration Scale is the form usually used to determine whether a child is a good candidate for a skip. I haven't seen the most current form (version 3) b/c version 2 was the one out when we were looking at that decision for dd#1 two years ago.

From version 2, though, there were a few "critical" pieces that needed to be in place. One of them was IQ (some similar approximation such as a group ability test is now acceptable for version 3, I understand). The IAS states that a child with an IQ below the 98th percentile should not even be considered for a grade skip unless s/he falls into the area where your dd does -- just missed the cut-off to start K by a small amount.

For those kids who just missed the K cut-off, they suggest that a grade skip (or early entrance) may be warranted for kids in the 86th-97th percentile (1-2 std deviations above the mean) if they are also achieving very highly, socially ready, and other family dynamics, school support issues, etc. are in place.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by eepster

There is no need to keep an intellectually normal child out of school b/c of a physical disability.

Homeschooling is a totally different matter.

There's no reason to keep a child who is intellectually challanged out of school either.

Homeschooling is a whole different deal. Parenting a child with a-typical development is tough enough, no mother need feel that she must do everything all by herself.

Grade placement really is more about age than anything else. I'm a huge fan of pull out programs and different work for different kids, and my kids' school does a great with kids at both ends of the spectrum.

I think it's rough on kids be the youngest OR the oldest. If you just go with their birthdays, they won't be -- even if their birthday is right on the line. So many parents hold back, and a few manage to bump ahead that *if you just go with the cut off,* your child won't be the oldest or youngest.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

There's no reason to keep a child who is intellectually challanged out of school either.

I agree, but their are those who would argue it, so I went with a more universally agreed on statement.

[anechka]

I would've probably hold her back another year but then I can't even wrap my head around the age requirements for the school entry here, in the US.
I entered the school in the USSR, when I was 7 and my brother was 8. My parents wanted us both in the same class. 7 was the age at which kids were generally accepted by the schools.
I remember learning to read when I was 6 and doing simple math by the age 7. By the age 14 we were already speaking second language and began doing calculus. I have graduated from the high school at the 17 years of age, granted the school term was 10 years, not 12 as it is here. I have finished my undergrad. work by the age 21 and recieved PhD. at the age 25. And my story is not that uncommon.
That being said, I believe that there is no real need to send children as young as 4 or 5 to the school. At that age children should be mostly playing and not spending hours doing homework.
Now I teach college here, in the US and so many of my students read and write very poorly and are not able to communicate their ideas effectively. However, from my private conversations with them, I gather that they "learned how to read" when they were 4 or 5, did basic math by the age 6. They spend 12!!!! years in school and the end result is such that they are utterly academically undeprepared. I really do not know what to think of it. Why is this happenning?? Sorry for my long runt, I am just very confused about the whole situation.

[lauren]

Originally Posted by anechka

.
Now I teach college here, in the US and so many of my students read and write very poorly and are not able to communicate their ideas effectively. However, from my private conversations with them, I gather that they "learned how to read" when they were 4 or 5, did basic math by the age 6. They spend 12!!!! years in school and the end result is such that they are utterly academically undeprepared. I really do not know what to think of it. Why is this happenning?? Sorry for my long runt, I am just very confused about the whole situation.

Your last paragraph sounds like a terrific opener for a whole new thread! I think that would be a great discussion!