ableist language sticky or something?

[lolar2]

I see a fair amount of ableist language on MDC. It doesn't seem quite right to me just to report it because it tends to be things that are common idioms in English, that most people who aren't part of a disability rights community wouldn't be aware are offensive. That is, I don't see pejorative use of the "r-word" or anything like that, but I see things like "making choices blindly" or "wheelchair-bound" (vs. the preferred term "wheelchair user") or "that's lame." So I don't want to go around calling out or reporting things that people wrote without bad intentions. However, I wonder if we could have some kind of a sticky, somewhere (don't know where would be best), to educate people more about this. And I realize that not everyone in the world agrees on this, but the UA specifies that we are not to write discriminatory things about people with disabilities. To me, avoiding ableist language is part of that.

[JessicaS]

Hello!

We don't have a sticky on able-ist language. If you would like to write something on it please feel free and then notify an administrator. We can certainly look at it. We would be delighted to have members submit information for the benefit of the community.

The r-word isn't seen a lot because we generally encourage people to educate one another about the word and a lot of that is done via pm by moderators, granolas or other members.

Ideally we would have any such issues with words worked out in threads between members. It doesn't always happen that way but that is our goal.

[lolar2]

I'll work on a sticky.

[georgia]

Thanks! We are so happy to have the help

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by lolar2

I'll work on a sticky.

While you're working on it, can we include slurs aimed at people with mental illnesses? (I'm happy to help you come up with a list.) I see frequent references to people as crazy, psycho, and insane on MDC.

It's been bothering me more and more over the past week.

I'm not sure what's acceptable to say to other posters directly. I'm always hesitant to call out members directly on their language because it seems that generally frowned upon, but I keep thinking that this language wouldn't be acceptable were it a racial or ethnic slur, gender discrimination, etc.

[lolar2]

I absolutely am going to include those in my draft! For sure.

[HappyHappyMommy]

I just wanted to say thank you in advance for doing this, lolar2. I agree that changing language is very powerful and is an important way to address discrimination.

I like to think of myself as someone who takes great care in what I say and try to be aware of the language I use (in all circumstances including on MDC), but it helps to have information that can raise consciousness. For example, "wheelchair user" (rather than "wheelchair-bound") is a term I use frequently, but when I read your message and saw the example of "making choices blindly," I realized that I have probably used that term (if not on MDC, then in verbal communications) without thinking about what that term means. I'm really glad you mentioned it because having now stopped to think about it for even just a few second, that's not a term that I want to use going forward and there is definitely language I can use that's less able-ist, and--quite honestly--says what I mean more clearly.

I look forward to learning from others' experiences and knowledge on this topic! Again, thank you.

[laohaire]

Well, I can't speak for all blind people, but as one legally blind person, I'm having trouble seeing what the issue is with "making choices blindly."

I see the issue with "wheelchair bound" and "lame" but not "making choices blindly." You can say that someone isn't looking at all the options without being offensive to blind people.

[AFWife]

Originally Posted by laohaire

Well, I can't speak for all blind people, but as one legally blind person, I'm having trouble seeing what the issue is with "making choices blindly."

I see the issue with "wheelchair bound" and "lame" but not "making choices blindly." You can say that someone isn't looking at all the options without being offensive to blind people.

Right, isn't it a colloquialism or something? I'm also confused on that...

But, then again, I know disabled people that aren't offended by "lame" or other able-ist talk...so maybe my opinion doesn't count (I don't say that to be rude...lol)

[KatWrangler]

You know I was thinking of this thread last night. Laying in bed for hours wide awake.

Some of the words mentioned here I kept thinking well what do I replace it with?

eta - I am no stranger to the special needs community. I do have a child with special needs. I am no stranger to the mental health community since my husband is Bipolar II. So I am very interested in this conversation.

[AFWife]

Nevermind...

[KempsMama]

My DH wanted me to throw in our

He is handicapped, and can't STAND terms like differently abled and wheelchair user and handicap-able. We both feel that it's patronizing and demeaning for others to make up new language to tip toe around us. (I am BiPolar, and am in no way offended by crazy, psycho or the like.) So every person is different. What offends one person when it comes to this type of language isn't offensive to everyone, and what one person thinks is ok might offend one person. I don't think there is anyway to avoid someone somewhere getting offended.

[lotusdebi]

I have a severe mental illness, and come from a family full of people with severe mental illness. We don't use terms like "nuts", "crazy", "insane", and "psycho" lightly. I've seen a lot of people on MDC use those terms to describe people, and I am definitely offended by it. There are a significant number of stereotypes about people with severe mental illness. It's easy to say, "Your mother is nuts!" or "That guy in the grocery store was crazy!" and not realize that it hurts those of us who have been called those things for years because of our diagnoses. It's also easy to play armchair-psychologist and diagnose people you've never met after a paragraph ranting about them. This is also offensive to many of us with those diagnoses. "Your mother is nuts! She's obviously mentally ill! She sounds like she may have bipolar disorder. My uncle has bipolar and acts just like that." is hurtful. It's offensive. You're grouping a heck of a lot of people under this description that no one wants to be grouped under. And a lot of those people you're grouping are the same ones that you get (good!) parenting advice from and consider your (online) friends. And, really, diagnosing a stranger from a biased description on an internet forum isn't going to do anyone a bit of good unless that person is describing themselves and asking for help in the health forum.

Try putting yourselves in our shoes. Consider your words, your stereotypes, your desire to push people whose words and actions you don't like into the "other" category so that you don't have to worry so much about becoming them. Consider how those things hurt some of US. And find another, more considerate way to word your posts. It's that simple.

[KatWrangler]

What about

an awareness workshop?

To be honest I got to thinking about some of the words I use and how I use them. I had an moment. There are so many words we take for granted that in reality are disrespectful and hurting to others. Something that may not bother my family (nuts, crazy etc) eventhough my husband is Bipolar II. He laughs about it. But I can see how it is hurtful to others who sufer from mental illness.

[KempsMama]

Originally Posted by lotusdebi

Try putting yourselves in our shoes. Consider your words, your stereotypes, your desire to push people whose words and actions you don't like into the "other" category so that you don't have to worry so much about becoming them. Consider how those things hurt some of US. And find another, more considerate way to word your posts. It's that simple.

Not sure if you were meaning this for me in response to my post, but perhaps you missed the fact that I am in "your shoes". I'm Bipolar, my DH is in a wheelchair permanently, and we have a LOT of mental illness and other ailments in our families.

I personally don't take offense to that type of language because I know they aren't referring to me specifically. I also think that if we go around trying to offend no one we will eventually be mute.

[lolar2]

Originally Posted by KempsMama

My DH wanted me to throw in our

He is handicapped, and can't STAND terms like differently abled and wheelchair user and handicap-able. We both feel that it's patronizing and demeaning for others to make up new language to tip toe around us. (I am BiPolar, and am in no way offended by crazy, psycho or the like.) So every person is different. What offends one person when it comes to this type of language isn't offensive to everyone, and what one person thinks is ok might offend one person. I don't think there is anyway to avoid someone somewhere getting offended.

I think you'll find, after I finish my draft (which should be by Thursday evening I hope!) that I agree with you-- and with a couple of other pp who've expressed reservations-- more than you think. I certainly will acknowledge that there is disagreement from one person to another! But there are some conventions which have been developing over the last 20 or so years (which don't, I'm relieved to say, include handi-capable which I agree is just a bizarre word) especially in academic and political writings.

[AFWife]

Originally Posted by KempsMama

I personally don't take offense to that type of language because I know they aren't referring to me specifically. I also think that if we go around trying to offend no one we will eventually be mute.

This. Where does it end?

[lotusdebi]

Originally Posted by KatWrangler

an awareness workshop?

I doubt the people who most need the information would be at all interested in participating in an awareness workshop. It would be nice, though.

Originally Posted by KempsMama

Not sure if you were meaning this for me in response to my post, but perhaps you missed the fact that I am in "your shoes". I'm Bipolar, my DH is in a wheelchair permanently, and we have a LOT of mental illness and other ailments in our families.

I personally don't take offense to that type of language because I know they aren't referring to me specifically. I also think that if we go around trying to offend no one we will eventually be mute.

I believe that great harm comes from using pejorative terms associated with severe mental illness. There is a dehumanization of people with mental illness that occurs when you can make jokes about "crazy people" as though we - WE - have no feelings, no capacity to understand that we're being targeted. As though it doesn't matter if we do.

Originally Posted by AFWife

This. Where does it end?

It ends when we find the ability to relate to each other as equals, with consideration and kindness. Do you really feel harmed somehow by not being able to say those words that are so clearly taboo now, but were accepted 10, 20, 50 years ago? How does it offend you so much to take care with your speech so that you don't bring harm to others?

[AFWife]

Originally Posted by lotusdebi

It ends when we find the ability to relate to each other as equals, with consideration and kindness. Do you really feel harmed somehow by not being able to say those words that are so clearly taboo now, but were accepted 10, 20, 50 years ago? How does it offend you so much to take care with your speech so that you don't bring harm to others?

It doesn't offend me. I never said that. I just agree that if we always watch every single thing we say for fear of offending someone eventually there will be nothing to say. There will always be at least one person that's offended by something someone says.

I was lying awake thinking about this last night. In terms of able-ist language, should phrases like, "I see what you're saying" or "I hear you on that" be banned as well? Should I not be allowed to use the word "idiot" or call something "stupid" because someone with a low IQ might get offended? Should MDC rename the section on "Queer Parenting" because the definitions for Queer come up as:

1 a : worthless, counterfeit <queer money> b : questionable, suspicious
2 a : differing in some odd way from what is usual or normal b (1) : eccentric, unconventional (2) : mildly insane : touched

AND THEN it mentions being gay? Should we ban the word "sucks" because it originally disrespected women and gay men?

That's what I mean by "Where does it end?" I don't mean the things that I say to be offensive. To me, they're just words. I look at profanity as the same thing most of the time. I can use the "F Word" without being angry...it's just another word to me. I'm sorry that this is such a difficult subject and I'm really trying to see where you're coming from...but it's one that I've been confused on in the past.

[KempsMama]

Originally Posted by lotusdebi

I very much doubt you're in my shoes.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where you said you were married to a "wheelchair user".....I must have missed the part where you decided YOUR mental illness was worse than mine.

I find YOUR comment much more offensive than any of the other garbage your so worried about. Maybe you need to think a little about what you say too.