I think we're going to nightwean.. UPDATE #56

[LadyCatherine185]

After my last thread, we had 6 good nights in a row! DS was only waking every 2 hours, and I think he even had a 4 hour stretch last week! I was hoping we had reached a turning point in his sleep patterns (which is average waking every hour (or more) to nurse, and waking for the day at 5 AM) and that I wasn't going to have to do anything to change it. Waking every 2 hours, and sleeping until 6-7 AM felt like heaven for a whole WEEK!

Then, last night he was back to waking every hour. He even stayed awake from 3-4 AM and wouldn't go back to sleep. I felt like I was being tortured all night again.

Also, last week we noticed several spots on DS's teeth that looked like some decay. We took him to the dentist and he has 2 cavities that need to be filled, as well as a chipped tooth (he chipped his front tooth around 10 months old) that is going to need a baby root canal as well as a cap of some sort. (FTR, DS gets no juice or sweets and we brush his teeth VERY well every night) I know the research says BM doesn't cause tooth decay, but with these dental problems so early, I think it would probably be best to decrease nursing at night when his teeth can't be brushed....

Anyway, the point of the thread..

DH and I have decided we should nightwean DS. I am planning to try the Jay Gordon plan, although probably from hours 10-5 considering DS's normal sleep-time is from 7-5/6. I will probably draw it out a little longer than 10 days.. Maybe a week for each "phase." I am also planning to make a little book for DS, like a "Goodnight Liam" book that focuses on the differences between night and day, and how when the moon and stars are out we sleep and the milks sleep and in the morning we wake up and he can have milks again.

I am really nervous about this going poorly, but if anyone has any advice on how to make it easier on us/DS that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[rzberrymom]

That's about the age I nightweaned my DD. It took 2 days. You'll know pretty quickly if he's ready. :

[sarahdavida]

I am in the slow process of nightweaning my DS (34 mos.) I don´t have any great advice - and am not familiar with the Jay Gordon plan - I am just going by my gut as to what the steps are and how long they should last - and trying to be patient.

I tried a couple times earlier on, but DS was clearly NOT ready and as tired as I was by it at times, I knew I just had to keep going and wait until he was more cognatively and emotionally ready...

it seems to be going o.k., although we are still very early on - the first step being falling alseep in the first place without nursing (I still lie next to him, though, for now, until he is asleep). It has been 8 nights and so far, so good. I might make tonight the first night of "not nursing when he night-wakes and see if he will go back to sleep without too much trauma" - we´ll see...I´m playing it by ear in the moment...I´m pretty sure this will be a harder step since he already had some experience with the first step with other people - and since we will both be tired and cranky and just want to go back to sleep

But again, I realized with DS that since I didn´t do it very early on (too early), I had to wait until much later for the nightweaning. Iif I had really NEEDED to do it, I migh have pushed earlier, but I was willing - and mostly happy - to continue until he got old enough to be able to handle it better...

I will be taking him to his first dentist visit very soon - and hope it´s not too bad...

Good luck!

[Kailey's mom]

I'm terribly confused about the tooth problems. My dd is almost 4 years old, and goes to bed with a full sippy cup filled with formula, everynight. She drinks on and off all night, and she has no dental problems what so ever. *for those who are questioning, she has some SN's*

I'm wondering if maybe there are other factors, not milk, that are causing the dental issues. Untreated acid reflux?

[Maluhia]

I think each child's enamel is different and may therefore react differently to different circumstances.

[LadyCatherine185]

Originally Posted by Maluhia

I think each child's enamel is different and may therefore react differently to different circumstances.

He did have reflux as an infant, but seems to have outgrown it (doesn't show any symptoms) so that could be a factor contributing to the tooth decay. I know plenty of people who give their kids bottles of juice, and milk in bed, and don't brush and their kids have perfect teeth. Liam obviously has issues for whatever reason, and nursing every hour all night long can't be helping. FWIW, the dentist we saw said the reason for the cavities was because of "nursing on demand." I don't think that is the reason behind it, but I'm sure it could have contributed. According to this study, when breastmilk mixes with food particles it causes more decay to the teeth than the food alone.

We had decided to nightwean at some point in the near future (still haven't decided exactly WHEN we are going to start) before the teeth issues. Mainly because I can't keep waking up every hour or more all night long anymore.

[bam]

Originally Posted by Kailey's mom

I'm wondering if maybe there are other factors, not milk, that are causing the dental issues. Untreated acid reflux?

It could be as simple as genes.

[bam]

LadyCatherine185,

I would recommend No Cry Sleep Solution by Pantley for nightweaning. It's a gentle approach compared to the others out there. Check it out before you commit to Gordon's. I am using NCSS and having good results without the drama and stress.

[sunfish21]

Not much advice but encouragement here. I nightweaned DD at 21 months and we are finally sleeping through the night. We went over how we were going to have nummies before bed and that they were going to go night-night until the morning. I quit nursing in bed before sleep--we nurse in the rocking chair and move to the bed when it is time to sleep.

I was so worried about it and there were literally a few moments that were hard but it was very easy for us, and I am guessing long overdue. Good luck!

FWIW, my dad is a dentist, sees no problem with nursing through the night in terms of teeth and would agree that genes/enamel are different for everyone. That said, you may want a second opinion before starting dental work on your DS. Although something like a cavity seems pretty easy to diagnose I know there are times it is just shading, etc...

[karebear217]

Best of luck to you! I nightweaned around 15 months (to get AF back) and it was so much less traumatic than I thought it was going to be! DS was more confused than anything - He cried for a minute or two, and then he was happy, just wide awake for a couple of hours until he figured out he was supposed to go back to sleep without nursing. And that was it! He never asked for it at night again! I hope it will be the same for you!

[kalamos23]

Have you looked into http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streptococcus_mutans ?

It is a bacteria that is passed from mother/father to the child - it's a HUGE contributer to dental caries and removing the bacteria by wiping/brushing is the only way to take care of it. Oh, and by constantly rebuilding the tooth enamel - the bacteria tends to break down enamel faster than the tooth can rebuild naturally without help.

Mothering had an article on it a while back actually.

[kalamos23]

Oh, also, milk and cheese (and I'm assuming breastmilk applies though it is not specifically mentioned) is supposed to help in reducing the acid in the mouth after meals- so nursing through the night actually might have helped in keeping his mouth alkaline vs. acidic. We've had similar problems with both my and DD's teeth, so I've looked into this.

[LadyCatherine185]

Originally Posted by bam

LadyCatherine185,

I would recommend No Cry Sleep Solution by Pantley for nightweaning. It's a gentle approach compared to the others out there. Check it out before you commit to Gordon's. I am using NCSS and having good results without the drama and stress.

We've tried Pantley's methods with no results. Like I said I plan to drag out Gordon's method and continue cosleeping. I just need some sleep. Getting an hour at a time (or less) for 18 months is causing me to go crazy.

[LadyCatherine185]

Originally Posted by kalamos23

Oh, also, milk and cheese (and I'm assuming breastmilk applies though it is not specifically mentioned) is supposed to help in reducing the acid in the mouth after meals- so nursing through the night actually might have helped in keeping his mouth alkaline vs. acidic. We've had similar problems with both my and DD's teeth, so I've looked into this.

Thanks for all that info! We have started wiping his teeth more, squirting them with water, etc. I ordered some Xylitol wipes online yesterday, I now give him a multi-vitamen with extra calcium, as well as starting to use a flouride toothpaste (Tom's silly strawberry for kids). He has a dairy allergy so he can't have any other milk, or cheese, etc. but I was reading about MI Paste, which uses Casein from cow's milk to rebuild teeth.. so I think it probably only applies to cow's milk. But, maybe not! I just think him constantly having food (during the day) and milk on his teeth can't be good for already weak enamel. But, like I said, the teeth were sort of a last straw reason for us to try nightweaning.

[LadyCatherine185]

Originally Posted by sunfish21

Not much advice but encouragement here. I nightweaned DD at 21 months and we are finally sleeping through the night. We went over how we were going to have nummies before bed and that they were going to go night-night until the morning. I quit nursing in bed before sleep--we nurse in the rocking chair and move to the bed when it is time to sleep.

I was so worried about it and there were literally a few moments that were hard but it was very easy for us, and I am guessing long overdue. Good luck!

FWIW, my dad is a dentist, sees no problem with nursing through the night in terms of teeth and would agree that genes/enamel are different for everyone. That said, you may want a second opinion before starting dental work on your DS. Although something like a cavity seems pretty easy to diagnose I know there are times it is just shading, etc...

Thanks for the encouragement!

The dentist we saw has been in practice for a long time (15-20+ years) and was recommended by a LOT of people. My husband saw him when he was a kid, all my cousins saw him, etc. so I trust him to do a good job on the dental work and to know what he is doing.

[MacKinnon]

Our pediatric dentist told us that cavities in children are typically caused by two reasons- 1) is weak enamel, that is typically genetic and the very best brushing, all the fluoride in the world can't prevent cavities. 2) is colonization of the "bad bacteria" that cause cavities. The bad bacteria get shared typically by other adults sharing spoons, cups, forks, kissing on the lips, etc.

In both situations it's typical for the parent with bad teeth to have children with bad teeth, due to either genetics or sharing those bad bacteria. We did an extensive family history of our (me, DH, and our parents/sibs) dental history at our first appointment. My DD had a cavity that needed filling at 5, hers was due to a malformation of a back molor that left essentially, an incredibly deep groove that we couldn't brush out. Our dentist felt that it was a "one off" because of the situation, and wasn't worried. Neither DH nor I had cavities as children, ours all came as adults, which she also said is typical and due to a change in dental habits and food when you go to college (pop, sugary coffees, etc.) more so then that huge colonization of bacteria.

Anyway, night weaning really helped extend my nursing relationship with DD, she was a big all night nurser and night weaning let us continue during the day. We followed the Gordon plan and it worked wonders in just two days. Good luck!

[D_McG]

Gordon's plan would have been too....elaborate for DS. The nurse-but-not-to-sleep thing would have driven him insane. (I think DD would do OK with it). We had great luck with a more drastic change. That was week one = nurse first waking and then not again until the next day (so, no 'sun comes up' or anything. Just TOMORROW). Then week 2 = no nursing at all in bed.

It sounds more harsh but really it was more gentle for DS who needs very specific directions/limits when making a change. Less now at his age now but certainly at that age.

So I guess I'd say keep an open mind. and good luck! It virtually eliminated DS' CONSTANT nightwaking.

[kalamos23]

Ooo where did you find xylitol wipes? DD's bad teeth are the top front four, and I'mwondering if it's because these teeth never get BM on them due to the way kids nurse - her other teeth seem fine. She is also a fighter and will clench her jaw so we cant get in there - but I could wipe her teeth while she sleeps...

We also do a multivit and lots of water during the day.

[LadyCatherine185]

Originally Posted by D_McG

Gordon's plan would have been too....elaborate for DS. The nurse-but-not-to-sleep thing would have driven him insane. (I think DD would do OK with it). We had great luck with a more drastic change. That was week one = nurse first waking and then not again until the next day (so, no 'sun comes up' or anything. Just TOMORROW). Then week 2 = no nursing at all in bed.

It sounds more harsh but really it was more gentle for DS who needs very specific directions/limits when making a change. Less now at his age now but certainly at that age.

So I guess I'd say keep an open mind. and good luck! It virtually eliminated DS' CONSTANT nightwaking.

thanks, I will keep this in mind!

[LadyCatherine185]

Originally Posted by kalamos23

Ooo where did you find xylitol wipes? DD's bad teeth are the top front four, and I'mwondering if it's because these teeth never get BM on them due to the way kids nurse - her other teeth seem fine. She is also a fighter and will clench her jaw so we cant get in there - but I could wipe her teeth while she sleeps...

We also do a multivit and lots of water during the day.

DS's cavities are on the two side top teeth (not the two front, but the ones beside them). So, I also thought that if it were from BM it wouldn't be on those teeth!

Liam is a fighter too, but for the last 4-5 months we have made sure to hold him down (not very gentle, but was hoping to avoid cavities!) and brush his teeth every night. It takes two of us. But, my DH travels for work for a night or two every other week, and I do the best I can but I know I can't get in there real well. So that is why I ordered the wipes! I just googled Xylitol wipes and ended up ordering them from CVS online.