What exactly is CIO? - Page 2

[nerdymom]

Originally Posted by abimommy

That is a very nice post

Thank you. Once upon a time I considered myself a writer. Now I just consider myself lucky to be able to string two sentences together at the end of the day.

[intrepidmother]

Thanks for all the replies!!

I'm a new mom and most mom's around me CIO. When they are telling me the benefits of "teaching" the baby to fall asleep and when the Health Nurse agrees, I question my choice of not letting my LO CIO...

Anyways- I'm learning a lot from the discussions! Thanks Abimommy for the links to the articles- I will definitely check them out!

[North_Of_60]

Originally Posted by KimberlyD0

to me CIO is to intentionally leave a child to cry for hours at a time in order to teach them to sleep at bed or nap time.

CIO (to me) is not letting your child settle for a few minutes to see if they really need you
CIO is not letting them stay on the floore, especially during tummy time to see if they can settle
CIO is not them crying in a swing, bouncer whatever while mom (or dad) takes a few minuted to get a breath, take a shower ect.
CIO is not when a baby is in a carseat and you have to drive
CIO is not when a baby cries while you get ready to feed them, FF or BF, or even solids.

In regards to the bolded part, I caution people to becareful about labeling a parent's need to walk away and regroup as CIO (or at least damaging CIO). It may be necessary and NOBODY should feel guilty for recognizing their need to regroup.

[lach]

This is such a great thread.

CIO is one of those things that some people have such a visceral reaction to that sometimes it can be hard for them to see shades of gray, and they consider letting a baby cry be a black or white situation. Yes, in some cases, it is. But in many more cases it's not.

I was on another message board and a mother said that she didn't even let her baby cry in the car. And he hated the car. So she'd drive for 30 seconds, pull over, comfort him for a few minutes, drive for another 30 seconds, and so on. She said that trips to the grocery store would take an hour. I'm sorry, but I thought that prolonging the poor baby's misery by making the trip take an hour sounded far, far worse than letting him cry for the 5 minutes it would take to get to the grocery store. But to her, letting him even cry that long was CIO.

To me, CIO really just means sleep training. I wouldn't even call when you leave the totally miserable baby doing tummy time that he hates CIO, though I would call that inappropriate and mean. I think CIO is really just your Weissbluth/Ferber "teaching" them to sleep by letting them cry until they learn that you're not going to come.

Sometimes babies cry. Sometimes you can't get to them. CIO teaches them that you're not coming and they should get over it. Letting them cry for a few minutes in the swing because you really, really need to wash your hands after changing your toddler's poopy diaper is just one of those facts of life. If you leave them crying in the swing consistently, that's one thing. But there's a reason that CIO takes a long time to work: sometimes weeks. Babies don't want to believe that you're not coming back. They have faith in their Mom and Dad and other caretakers. It takes a lot of convincing to break that faith. A few incidences here and there of letting them cry is not going to destroy that faith or that attachment.

Well, that's my personal opinion at least.

[new2this]

To me what my mom did with me was not CIO it was far from it. She did suffer from PPD although not highly diagnosed back then it was more of baby blues then, I had been crying all day and she just couldn't take it anymore she needed a break. My dad was a truck driver so there was no one around to come help. So she did what she felt best. For her it helped her refresh herself to be able to be a mom. So wether she had a glass of whine or stepped outside for a few minutes or whatever same concept jsut different choice in how to refresh. And sometimes it may take people 30 mintues to refresh for teh safety of themselves as well as the baby.

In cases like that I feel people are to judgemental. And I was in no way promoting it. Just saying there are times where people do things and they are not intentionally letting a child CIO,they have reached their point and have exhuasted every measure. took a break and went back.

For me even if rare there are times where it does take more then 10 minutes to refresh.

As long as a person isn't trainging the child to fall asleep on thier own or "ferberizing" then I don't see things as CIO. I dont' see it as neglect either. Babies cry for all reasons and I honestly believe sometimes they do cry to just cry. And honestly a mother knows their child's cry way better then any other person will.

[ElliesMomma]

i've been reading "the vital touch" (which i saw recommended here on MDC). it's very interesting, and also a little depressing b/c our society here in the U.S. is so different in so many ways from much of the rest of the world. babies come into the world expecting to be held. this is the biological norm, it's what has always happened, it's what babies are "programmed" to expect. but we (our society) generally minimizes the amount of time we actually hold our babies in arms. look around at all the people who tote the babes around in the bucket car seats. heck, somebody today was telling me about a new swing contraption where you just pop the bucket car seat in it, and turn it on. (when do those babies *ever* get out of the car seat?)

now... on the other hand, in our society we sorta *need* some of these contraptions since we are (for the most part) nuclear families with (often) just the mom doing all of the child care. it is EXHAUSTING, especially if you are caring for more than one.

in other societies, the mothers all raise their kids together, and when mom needs a break to do something else, there is always someone else there to hold the baby.

one of the most enlightening parts of this book, that caught my eye, and is relevant to this discussion, is that, in the U.S., we think it is normal for babies to cry. but it is actually not normal. most babies around the world *don't* cry as much as babies do in our society. [returning again to the theme of having more caregivers around to actually hold the baby in arms, which is what babies want and expect.] the book also touches on CIO as far as sleep arrangements, which is that it is the biological norm for babies to sleep with their mothers. before modern times (not that many generations ago in the scheme of things) people did not have nice safe protected houses to live in. what do you think happened if a mother put her baby in a spot all alone in the dark, and left that baby to cry it out? eaten by predators, i suppose. again, babies are programmed by that biological history to fear the dark, the feel unsafe alone in the dark, to feel protected by mothers and other adult family around.

it's been a fascinating book, and really eye opening for me. as an american, you just sorta go along with what you see around you... which it turns out is so far removed from what is normal and natural for our species!! so, i've been trying to hold my son (who is 5 months old) as much as possible. of course, i have to set him down from time to time, and i enlist my daughter's help (she's 3) to entertain him when i have to do something else. he hates the car seat (she always did too) and cries and cries. but i do have to go places in the car, so he does cry a lot in the car. i hate hearing it, but as others have said, my daughter and i are talking, he can hear us, i give him his crinkly book to play with, she is in the back seat with him, etc.

what has frustrated me the most though, is after reading this enlightening book, was realizing how our american society is so set up against us, trying to be attachment moms. it is possible to hold your baby, to have real "touch" going on with him for a good 85-90 percent of the day (which is quite opposite of most U.S. babies, who are in those bucket seats, exersaucers, strollers, swings, bouncy seats, cribs, etc. -- for probably 85-90 percent of the day). it's possible to do a great deal of actual holding. BUT IT IS VERY TIRING TO DO IT YOURSELF. so too it is tiring to be on duty for nighttime parenting, especially if you are on solo shift without your partner's help.

it is frustrating to me, b/c we should have more of a cooperative culture to help us as moms... but we don't.

[JessicaS]

I have never known a child to cry for no reason, some do but that is pretty rare. If a child was crying a lot for a reason I could not discern I would take them to the Dr and maybe the chiropractor. I had bad growing pains growing up and if I can't figure out the reason I assume it is just pain and I give them a nice warm bath and a massage. My son has a condition which can cause pain so we do that kind of a lot actually.

Sensory issues can also make it seem like they are crying for no reason. Babies can get overstimulated or overtired and that can also make them pretty hysterical. One just has to try different things and find what works. I have always found warm baths and massages to work great but different parents will find things that work best for their own babies. Babies are individuals and what works for one might not work for another.

Of course crying is a reliever of stress so babies might cry if they are stressed but it is more beneficial if they are held during that.

Some people are judgmental but I think a lot of them have a lot of compassion. If someone expresses they feel at the end of their rope I cannot imagine people would treat them unkindly.

[JL83]

Originally Posted by new2this

And sometimes it may take people 30 mintues to refresh for teh safety of themselves as well as the baby.

30 minutes is far too long to leave a baby. I think that when people are able to leave a baby for 30 minutes they have entirely detached.

I think that it's reasonable for adults to take a few minutes to regroup, but 30 minutes is extremely excessive. If someone truly needs that long to calm down they are in any mental state to be in charge of an infant. They need help. I caution against making it seem normal or reasonable for a new mom to need that kind of break. It's NOT ok to let a baby cry alone for that long.

[Storm Bride]

I'm very hesitant to even mention this, as I've been dogpiled here over it before, but:

Originally Posted by abimommy

Sensory issues can also make it seem like they are crying for no reason. Babies can get overstimulated or overtired and that can also make them pretty hysterical. One just has to try different things and find what works.

Every single thing we tried to soothe/comfort dd1 caused her to be overstimulated. Nursing overstimulated her. Rocking overstimulated her. Singing to her overstimulated her. Touching her overstimulated her. We found, by accident (dh had to deal with something immediately, and I was in the bathroom) that what worked was under 5 minutes of being left alone to wind down and fall asleep. It wasn't an attempt to make her self-soothe. It was a simple fact that she was unable to calm down enough to fall asleep in our presence, until she had completely and utterly worn herself out by crying...usually for hours. IMO, forcing a child to exhaust herself by crying for 3-4 hours, rather than let her have the 3-5 minutes of wind down time that she needed, would have been far worse than putting her through hell, just so I could proudly proclaim that I don't do CIO. It was very, very hard to realize that my strongly held belief that babies shouldn't be left alone to cry was causing my baby tremendous stress...but that's what was happening. DD1 was very...I don't even have the words, but I've never had to deal with another baby like her.

Mods: If my desire to not torment my child is once again going to be perceived as "promoting CIO", please just PM me, and I'll remove the post.

[lach]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

I'm very hesitant to even mention this, as I've been dogpiled here over it before, but:



Every single thing we tried to soothe/comfort dd1 caused her to be overstimulated. Nursing overstimulated her. Rocking overstimulated her. Singing to her overstimulated her. Touching her overstimulated her. We found, by accident (dh had to deal with something immediately, and I was in the bathroom) that what worked was under 5 minutes of being left alone to wind down and fall asleep. It wasn't an attempt to make her self-soothe. It was a simple fact that she was unable to calm down enough to fall asleep in our presence, until she had completely and utterly worn herself out by crying...usually for hours. IMO, forcing a child to exhaust herself by crying for 3-4 hours, rather than let her have the 3-5 minutes of wind down time that she needed, would have been far worse than putting her through hell, just so I could proudly proclaim that I don't do CIO. It was very, very hard to realize that my strongly held belief that babies shouldn't be left alone to cry was causing my baby tremendous stress...but that's what was happening. DD1 was very...I don't even have the words, but I've never had to deal with another baby like her.

Mods: If my desire not torment my child is once again going to be perceived as "promoting CIO", please just PM me, and I'll remove the post.

My daughter did this weird thing where she cried three times before going to sleep. It took me until she was 4 months to figure this out, and I drove myself crazy those four months trying to make her never cry! Then I realized the three cry thing and it was like sunlight bursting through the clouds. She just needed to do it, to get comfortable or work out her tension or who knows what other reason.

She'd go "wah!" and flip her head to face the other way. "wah!" flip her head back. "wah!" flip her head again. "Zzzzz."

After we figured it out, my husband and I would do dramatic impressions, because it was actually pretty funny to watch her do it.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by lach

My daughter did this weird thing where she cried three times before going to sleep. It took me until she was 4 months to figure this out, and I drove myself crazy those four months trying to make her never cry! Then I realized the three cry thing and it was like sunlight bursting through the clouds. She just needed to do it, to get comfortable or work out her tension or who knows what other reason.

She'd go "wah!" and flip her head to face the other way. "wah!" flip her head back. "wah!" flip her head again. "Zzzzz."

After we figured it out, my husband and I would do dramatic impressions, because it was actually pretty funny to watch her do it.

That actually sounds very similar. Once we figured out what was up with dd1, we could usually cut it to a little under a minute. It just took her a little longer if we'd already wound her up by trying to comfort her.

*sigh*
Just thinking about those days makes me tense. She was always such a stressed out baby...amazing what a relatively calm girl she's morphed into.

[JessicaS]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

I'm very hesitant to even mention this, as I've been dogpiled here over it before, but:



Every single thing we tried to soothe/comfort dd1 caused her to be overstimulated. Nursing overstimulated her. Rocking overstimulated her. Singing to her overstimulated her. Touching her overstimulated her. We found, by accident (dh had to deal with something immediately, and I was in the bathroom) that what worked was under 5 minutes of being left alone to wind down and fall asleep. It wasn't an attempt to make her self-soothe. It was a simple fact that she was unable to calm down enough to fall asleep in our presence, until she had completely and utterly worn herself out by crying...usually for hours. IMO, forcing a child to exhaust herself by crying for 3-4 hours, rather than let her have the 3-5 minutes of wind down time that she needed, would have been far worse than putting her through hell, just so I could proudly proclaim that I don't do CIO. It was very, very hard to realize that my strongly held belief that babies shouldn't be left alone to cry was causing my baby tremendous stress...but that's what was happening. DD1 was very...I don't even have the words, but I've never had to deal with another baby like her.

Mods: If my desire to not torment my child is once again going to be perceived as "promoting CIO", please just PM me, and I'll remove the post.

AP is about recognizing the individual needs of individual children. It isn't about making them fit into a cookie cutter no matter how great that cookie cutter is. If your child has sensory issues then that is just how they are.

I have a sister that hated to be held as a baby, she got overheated. She certainly didn't like to co-sleep.

[mrspineau]

Originally Posted by abimommy

I have never known a child to cry for no reason, some do but that is pretty rare. If a child was crying a lot for a reason I could not discern I would take them to the Dr and maybe the chiropractor. I had bad growing pains growing up and if I can't figure out the reason I assume it is just pain and I give them a nice warm bath and a massage. My son has a condition which can cause pain so we do that kind of a lot actually.

Sensory issues can also make it seem like they are crying for no reason. Babies can get overstimulated or overtired and that can also make them pretty hysterical. One just has to try different things and find what works. I have always found warm baths and massages to work great but different parents will find things that work best for their own babies. Babies are individuals and what works for one might not work for another.

Of course crying is a reliever of stress so babies might cry if they are stressed but it is more beneficial if they are held during that.

Some people are judgmental but I think a lot of them have a lot of compassion. If someone expresses they feel at the end of their rope I cannot imagine people would treat them unkindly.

I think though, that many babies cry because they have learned that that's how to get mommy to come back in the room, pick them up, give them what they want, etc. but not because of a reason such as needing a diaper change, being hungry, being hurt, being scared, etc.

[JessicaS]

Originally Posted by mrspineau

I think though, that many babies cry because they have learned that that's how to get mommy to come back in the room, pick them up, give them what they want, etc. but not because of a reason such as needing a diaper change, being hungry, being hurt, being scared, etc.

But if I am sad or lonely I can communicate that. If I want a hug I can get some from my daughter or my husband. If I am lonely I can call one of my sisters on the phone. We all need human contact and communication, babies most of all.

If my son is crying to be held I hold him just as I would if my nine year old was wanting some cuddles or my husband was wanting to snuggle.

If my nine year old had a nightmare I wouldn't just leave her alone in a dark room by herself. I would discuss it with her, maybe get her some chocolate milk and give her lots of hugs and then send her to bed once she was comforted, or I would let her climb into our bed if it was too scary.

Needing love and affection is just as valid of a reason as needing to be changed or hungry.

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by mrspineau

I think though, that many babies cry because they have learned that that's how to get mommy to come back in the room, pick them up, give them what they want, etc. but not because of a reason such as needing a diaper change, being hungry, being hurt, being scared, etc.

And how awesome is that? Babies aren't born able to speak. They can't say "I'm scared" or "I need a cuddle" or "I have a little itch behind my knee" or even just "Mama, I need you!". If an older child came and said that, would you say "Tough crap kid. I have stuff to get done, so deal with it. If you need to make noise, go do it alone in a room so I don't have to hear you. Be sure to shut the door behind you!" ? I don't understand why it would be acceptable to treat a tiny, defenseless infant with any less respect and dignity than one would treat any other human being.

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by lach

My daughter did this weird thing where she cried three times before going to sleep. It took me until she was 4 months to figure this out, and I drove myself crazy those four months trying to make her never cry! Then I realized the three cry thing and it was like sunlight bursting through the clouds. She just needed to do it, to get comfortable or work out her tension or who knows what other reason.

She'd go "wah!" and flip her head to face the other way. "wah!" flip her head back. "wah!" flip her head again. "Zzzzz."

After we figured it out, my husband and I would do dramatic impressions, because it was actually pretty funny to watch her do it.

LOL! This sounds like my second, my daughter. Co-sleeping with her was a nightmare, because she felt obligated to entertain us, no matter how sleepy she was. And she didn't want to nurse to sleep. It just ticked her off. We finally set up the crib. The first night we laid her in it, she kind of glared at us, popped her thumb in her mouth, and rolled over and went to sleep. Kids are funny (and definitely NOT cookie cutter copies of one another!)

[annettemarie]

And in the last of my serial posts, LOL, I will agree that nerdymom's post was made of awesome. I don't think CIO is taking a few minutes to collect yourself or trying to get to the store with a fussing baby. I think it's deliberately allowing a child to cry because you're hoping to teach them some sort of lesson-- whether it's how to fall asleep or how to entertain themselves or how to have tummy time or how not to need mom as much. I don't see how a baby could perceive that as anything other than the people they love and depend on withholding affection from them.

There are so many places, both in real life and online, that support varying degrees of crying it out. I'm really thankful that MDC is a haven from that. There really aren't too many places willing to take a stand against it.

[fyrwmn]

so many great replies here! to me, CIO is deliberately choosing to leave your lo crying ALONE and choosing not to comfort them. it is ignoring the fact that they need you, whether it be for food, a dry diaper, or just need to be held...when babies cry they have a need that needs to be met in order for all to be right in their world again.
in the car you can try to sing/talk to lo so they know they aren't alone. ds is a car seat hater so i understand how frustrating it can be to hear them crying in the backseat while you HAVE to go somewhere. thank goodness for dd who sits next to him because she is usually able to assist in calming him!

[KempsMama]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

I'm very hesitant to even mention this, as I've been dogpiled here over it before, but:



Every single thing we tried to soothe/comfort dd1 caused her to be overstimulated. Nursing overstimulated her. Rocking overstimulated her. Singing to her overstimulated her. Touching her overstimulated her. We found, by accident (dh had to deal with something immediately, and I was in the bathroom) that what worked was under 5 minutes of being left alone to wind down and fall asleep. It wasn't an attempt to make her self-soothe. It was a simple fact that she was unable to calm down enough to fall asleep in our presence, until she had completely and utterly worn herself out by crying...usually for hours. IMO, forcing a child to exhaust herself by crying for 3-4 hours, rather than let her have the 3-5 minutes of wind down time that she needed, would have been far worse than putting her through hell, just so I could proudly proclaim that I don't do CIO. It was very, very hard to realize that my strongly held belief that babies shouldn't be left alone to cry was causing my baby tremendous stress...but that's what was happening. DD1 was very...I don't even have the words, but I've never had to deal with another baby like her.

Mods: If my desire to not torment my child is once again going to be perceived as "promoting CIO", please just PM me, and I'll remove the post.

My son sounds very similar. We tried co-sleeping. We tried rocking. We tried all the snuggles in the world. Then one day I needed a break from the screaming, set him in his crib, he never made a PEEP, just went to sleep. From then on he slept in his crib every night by himself, perfectly content. Some babies need their space IMO.

This is one reason I refuse to say I follow any parenting style-because I don't. I follow what my children NEED.

[lach]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

LOL! This sounds like my second, my daughter. Co-sleeping with her was a nightmare, because she felt obligated to entertain us, no matter how sleepy she was. And she didn't want to nurse to sleep. It just ticked her off. We finally set up the crib. The first night we laid her in it, she kind of glared at us, popped her thumb in her mouth, and rolled over and went to sleep. Kids are funny (and definitely NOT cookie cutter copies of one another!)

Just speaking of cosleeping as a nightmare... my daughter slept sooo much better on her own that I felt guilty when we finally put her in her own room and she immediately went from sleeping 1 hour at a time to doing 6 hour stretches. But recently she's been having a tough time getting to sleep, and I think maybe having nightmares, so she's back to us.

And instead of crying herself to sleep, now she sings herself to sleep. At the top of her lungs. She's mostly asleep when she does it, and if you talk to her she doesn't hear her. It is somewhere between adorable and OMG BE QUIET when I'm drifting off to sleep and I suddenly hear TWINKLE. TWINKLE. LITTLE. STAR being shouted in my ear by someone who isn't even conscious. Because of course she has her own pillow, but she simply must sleep on mine.

Ah, I'll miss these days someday.