when fasting or abstaining from things is sort of meaningless

[velveeta]

I was just sitting here, watching an ad on TV for Red Lobster. I never go there, but I do remember, as a child, my father always taking us there on Fridays. Was that supposed to be some big sacrifice?

I don't speak with him (severe abuse), and I was just thinking about how trips to Red Lobster make sense in that situation.

We had to abstain from meat, I guess. But, how mindful was that? Not at all, if you ask me.

Oh, not trying to be ugly to Red Lobster, I was just thinking of how my father totally did not get the concept of sacrifice and mindfulness.

I am a Quaker now, FWIW.

[just_lily]

I understand what you are saying. I am not Catholic, so I will admit that I don't understand why fish is not considered meat, but to me going to Red Lobster, or having fish and chips, or pizza doesn't seem like a big sacrifice. Maybe I am missing something. Maybe I am jealous because we are giving up meat (and fish) for Lent.

Perhaps someone who practices this can explain. I don't want to go outside the scope of this forum - perhaps this question would do better in Religious Studies?

I will also admit that I am a little confused about people who are non-religious participating in fasting / abstaining for Lent. I know a lot of people who give up things like chocolate for Lent, but not for any spiritual purpose. More just because it is what you do. And then the Easter Bunny comes and you get to have chocolate again. Yay! Leaves me a little confuddled.

[cappuccinosmom]

THe rest of my family is Catholic and they make consciencious choices to sacrifice for Lent, rather than just easing through it by attending fish fry's on Fridays. Eating fish is no sacrifice for them--they love it!

They're Byzantine, so week by week, certain things are cut out on fast days, meat, then dairy, etc. By the week before Easter my dad and one sister are doing bread and water on fasting days.

In many church's, not just Catholicism, after many generations people can forget the origin and the meaning of the practices they've become so familiar with. It become a cultural or a family habit, rather than something done specifically for God. And when that happens, stringency just isn't a consideration anymore.

[BMG580]

My priest just spoke about this very thing in the homily on Sunday. Circulating to all local parish fish fries during lent on Fridays is not a sacrifice and it misses the point. The abstaining from meat on Fridays is a way for Catholic Christians to remain mindful of Good Friday. And if you are a vegetarian or if meat isn't really something that is significant enough in your life to feel like a sacrifice by avoiding it one day a week, then you can choose some other penance. Sacrifice is so unique to each person, to some having to shut off their Blackberry one day a week would be a huge personal sacrifice, or avoiding Facebook or Twitter, some others would find not listening to music in the car during their commute a sacrifice.

[mamabadger]

In my church, we abstain from specific foods on certain days and during fasting periods, such as the present one.

The "sacrifice" part of fasting is only one aspect. The other part, and the harder part for some people, is keeping the fast as an obedience and a form of self-discipline.
A trip to Red Lobster may not be a huge sacrifice, but it does at least place a limitation on one's actions: I would have to choose this restaurant rather than another one which only serves meat. During a fast, I cannot just put something in my mouth; I have to make sure it does not contain animal products or other things. This requires me to always be conscious of what I am eating, and even a sumptuous meal at Red Lobster (which we might well choose for a special occasion which falls during a lent) is part of the ongoing effort.

For some people the food restrictions are the hardest part of a fast; for others, it is having limitations placed on them that is difficult. They might find it just as hard as a rule requiring them to eat meat.

[RedPony]

Originally Posted by Charbeau

My priest just spoke about this very thing in the homily on Sunday. Circulating to all local parish fish fries during lent on Fridays is not a sacrifice and it misses the point. The abstaining from meat on Fridays is a way for Catholic Christians to remain mindful of Good Friday. And if you are a vegetarian or if meat isn't really something that is significant enough in your life to feel like a sacrifice by avoiding it one day a week, then you can choose some other penance. Sacrifice is so unique to each person, to some having to shut off their Blackberry one day a week would be a huge personal sacrifice, or avoiding Facebook or Twitter, some others would find not listening to music in the car during their commute a sacrifice.

Originally Posted by mamabadger

In my church, we abstain from specific foods on certain days and during fasting periods, such as the present one.

The "sacrifice" part of fasting is only one aspect. The other part, and the harder part for some people, is keeping the fast as an obedience and a form of self-discipline.
A trip to Red Lobster may not be a huge sacrifice, but it does at least place a limitation on one's actions: I would have to choose this restaurant rather than another one which only serves meat. During a fast, I cannot just put something in my mouth; I have to make sure it does not contain animal products or other things. This requires me to always be conscious of what I am eating, and even a sumptuous meal at Red Lobster (which we might well choose for a special occasion which falls during a lent) is part of the ongoing effort.

For some people the food restrictions are the hardest part of a fast; for others, it is having limitations placed on them that is difficult. They might find it just as hard as a rule requiring them to eat meat.

ITA w/ both these posters. I was raised Catholic and we did meatless Fridays growing up. As I got out on my own - not so much. Now that I have children I'm finding that I really want to set that example, start observing these things in small ways, and work my way up from there. My husband isn't even Catholic, so for him fasting and abstaining are HUGE. I'm so proud of him! For me, yeah, I know I could do better/different then head to Red Lobster (which we did with my folks last Saturday ) on meatless Fridays, or skip a meal here and there, but it's a start (or a re-start, if you will). I'd like to be a better a Christian all around, Lent is a fantastic time for me to practice denial, even in baby steps, and to become more like Jesus. I can respect that.

[ursusarctos]

Originally Posted by just_lily

I will also admit that I am a little confused about people who are non-religious participating in fasting / abstaining for Lent. I know a lot of people who give up things like chocolate for Lent, but not for any spiritual purpose. More just because it is what you do. And then the Easter Bunny comes and you get to have chocolate again. Yay! Leaves me a little confuddled.

Well I don't know about the Easter Bunny and having chocolate, but having read several Catholic blogs and then articles like this from a Pagan perspective about how Lent harmonizes with the energy of Spring (shedding old "stuff" in order to grow anew, respecting the traditional "hungry period" in Spring in northern cultures which really resonates with me living in Finland...) I decided to have a "fast" myself (not food, but I've given up being on the computer after 6 pm, which is huge for me) because it seemed like a good idea anyway and the right time of year to let go of unnecessary things, break addictions, and focus on being mindful. So I guess my motivation is spiritual anyway but it's not religious.

ETA: It's probably evident in my post, but just to be clear I am not religious (yet ), though I take inspiration from many religions.

[GoBecGo]

I'm not religious at all and i give things up for Lent and also sometimes do a day or three of ramadan fasting (minus the prayers). It is good for me to go without sometimes. Not for the sake of the next life, for THIS one. It reminds me of how much i have and keeps me appreciative of the world and all the great stuff and people in it. I believe it's good for my inner growth. Not believing in a particular organised religion doesn't preclude having any interest in self-development.

[doubledutch]

Originally Posted by ursusarctos

articles like this from a Pagan perspective about how Lent harmonizes with the energy of Spring (shedding old "stuff" in order to grow anew, respecting the traditional "hungry period" in Spring in northern cultures which really resonates with me living in Finland...).

great article, thank you!

[CherryBomb]

I think eating lobster misses the point entirely. It's supposed to be a sacrifice and a show of humbleness/humility.

Fish, historically, wasn't considered meat (not in the way it's thought of today). If someone said "meat" they were talking about the muscular flesh of a mammal. For the purposes of religious fasting in the Roman Catholic tradition, meat refers to flesh that comes from "animals that take their rest on the earth, and of those that breathe the air and ... those that walk on the earth" (in the words of St. Thomas Aquinas).

[ursusarctos]

Originally Posted by CherryBomb

I think eating lobster misses the point entirely. It's supposed to be a sacrifice and a show of humbleness/humility.

Fish, historically, wasn't considered meat (not in the way it's thought of today). If someone said "meat" they were talking about the muscular flesh of a mammal. For the purposes of religious fasting in the Roman Catholic tradition, meat refers to flesh that comes from "animals that take their rest on the earth, and of those that breathe the air and ... those that walk on the earth" (in the words of St. Thomas Aquinas).

Yes, that's true, and also in Europe small fishy fish used to be standard fare for peasants - think (salted) herring. Fish certainly did not mean lobster or salmon to most people. I'm sure that the very rich might have stretched the "fish is not meat" rule by eating richer, rarer, and more delicious fish/seafood but the great majority of people would not have had the means for that.

doubledutch, I thought so too!

[kangamitroo]

Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom

In many church's, not just Catholicism, after many generations people can forget the origin and the meaning of the practices they've become so familiar with. It become a cultural or a family habit, rather than something done specifically for God. And when that happens, stringency just isn't a consideration anymore.

this strikes me as a wonderful point. and then i think of my mom, culturally catholic who sometimes says she "wishes she were more religious." for her, the practice of choosing a sacrifice for Lent does raise her consciousness of God--maybe even beyond Easter day.

as for the OP: velveeta, i understood you to be saying that your father was a person who caused harm, yet put on a kind of guise of religiosity by skipping meat. that there is a kind of hypocrisy to acting in a way that does not reflect humility or love toward your family--and then using an outer form to feign devotion. like....go to church, then come home and yell at your family? that kind of hypocrisy makes my stomach upset.

while i am not christian, i have found inspiration in the poem "fasting and feasting" by William Arthur Ward that many people cite during Lent. (many variations/excerpts are floating around the web.)