How to handle 'friend' and her childrens sexual behavior

[NamastePlatypus]

I hope this is not going to be novel long. I don't know what to do about a situation that happened last week with a friend. We have not been hanging out as much, ( that is a whole other thread) but one reason is that she is a negletful and lazy parent. She is also very defensive so talking to her about this is not going to go over well.
She has three kids two daughters, 9 and JUST turned three this week, and a 2 year old son. Her DD1 is from another marriage. She always has her watching the kids because she is to lazy too, she is a mom at nine and it is sad, she has been like that since i first met them two years ago. She says that DD1 loves it and that is is good for her. I agree it is good to let sibling help but it is not there job or responsibilty for even 1/5 of there day.
I know some moms don't care about this one but i do. Closed doors, to me, not cool, if you can't do it with the door open you shouldn't be doing it. That is just me. Along with that there is NO slamming of doors, just dangerous and disprespectful to me.
We are TV free for many reasons that work for us, there are a few things he watches on line ( things from Discovery Channel). But I am not ok with cartoons and Disney channel stuff for MY kids.

All that being said here is what happened.

I have not been there in a month or so but wanted to give it one more go before I made my final decison to not go back over there. In the past I have to spend days teaching E it is NOT ok to act like DD2 over there. CONSTANTLY. Well I stopped by and it was only for a few minutes because I can't handle more than that of her kids. I get there and she is watching a friends 10 year old boy and him and DD1 are all holed up in her room, door closed as always. As soon as E walks in the door DD2 takes him and runs back there and slams the door. As always I have to go back and remind E to keep the door open, DD1 says it is fine if the door is closed and so does the mom. I have to tell them if E is gone that is fine but not when my children are there. This happens more than a few times, me having to get up and check the door, and E bless his hear each time was trying to UNLOCK it and say, open the door open the door, and DD1 and 2 whispering sshhh sshhhh quiet, leave it closed. The 7th or 8th time I went back was the LAST time because he flung the door open and was running to me going " mom mom make DD2 stop kissing me I don't like it" Each time this happened the mom would tell me to relax they are fine DD1's got it, she is a good kid she can watch them.
( little back story, 6 monthes ago I walked into her room to tell E we had to go and she was under the neighbor boy and the way they jumped and reacted it was not innocent and you all KNOW what I mean!) I told her about it, mom freaked out on me saying I was being over zealous, kids wrestle and it is fine....)
Back to the other day, I walk in there and and dd1 and boy JUMP off each other, him to the floor and her to the other side of the bed, just like last time I saw her with a boy in her room.
DD2 was trying to drag he back in there by the arm and close the door on me. That was it for me, grabbed the boys and said I had to go since it was lunch.
That night I told dh about it and he freaked but I told him to stay calm while we talked to e about it at dinner. SO at dinner I asked e about what happened so he would not feel on the spot or influnced by the other children or shamed. He went on to tell us that DD1 and boy were 'married kissing' aka going at it. ( I was watching the bachlor on my computer after he went to bed and he came out and saw it and I had to explain what they were doing, called it married kissing so I know what he was talking about.) And that they told him and DD2 that if they wanted to be big kids and not babies like there little brothers that they would do it. E said that he was trying to leave the room and izzy was attacking him and trying to pull on his pants and get her hand up his shirt.

The anger spilling over on the inside of dh and I is unreal about this. We didn't think that we would have to have 'this talk' with my four year old. PLEASE any advice would be appreciated!!!

THANK you for reading it all if you have

[sleepingbeauty]

That is UNBELIEVABLE behavior for kids that age!!
I'd talk to yours about it when they ask or are already talking about that family. (Maybe you can start the convo by saying something about them but not about that situation yet and work your way into it?) If they ask, they are more likely to pay attention to what we say, you know? Explain why it isn't a good thing. Answer questions in a simple way so they can really get it. Tell them that NO ONE can touch them if they don't want to be touched. Tell them that closed doors are NOT ok. I'm so sorry they had to witness all that crap!!

As for the 'friend' and her kids.... That girl is 9 years old. No 9 year old should EVER be making out in bed with the door closed! NONE. The mother doesn't seem to take ANYTHING seriously and if something isn't done this girl could end out really screwed up in one way or another. If the mother doesn't listen, can you talk to the other parent? Other than that there really isn't anything an outsider can do aside from calling CPS but (unless I'm not grasping the situation correctly) that seems a bit much right now.

I really am so sorry you had to be in the middle of that. I hope those poor kids turn out ok... Good for you for getting your kids out though. That was the best thing you could have done for them as far as this is concerned.

[karne]

I'm having a hard time following your concerns here. Are you saying that you have a relationship with a friend you don't care for, and have criticism about her parenting choices, personality, child rearing, etc? I'm not clear why you made the choice to go to her home, with your child or children, under these circumstances? If you want to have some relationship, perhaps it would be better to meet at a more neutral location where the ground rules work for everyone? It might be less stressful fo all.

If you were uncomfortable with the closed door, why didn't you leave? I guess I just don't get that piece. Different families have different rules, but you chose to go there is the first place, and then stay after that. I can't really comment on the older kids because it's hard for me to tell what was really happening. There's a pretty wide range of innocent to exploration some times at that age.

As far as having anger, I don't understand who you are angry with? Again, just from your post, it seems that this was a choice that you made for your family. Maybe there's something I am missing?

[NamastePlatypus]

I feel better hearing that I am NOT a crazy overprotective helicopter mom, something she has called me before. I have almost called CPS on her before for other stuff. We did talk to e about it and he was very receptive, thank goodness. We wanted him to know we were so glad that he was open with us and that we will always be this calm and understanding and open about this and everything else he brings to us. I was so proud of him for knowing that it was wrong in the first place and was trying to go against it. It just made me so sad at the same time. He is 4, a CHILD. I want him to enjoy being a CHILD for his CHILDHOOD, it is so short and getting shorter the way things are. This was a reason why we are homeschooling, to monitor who his peers are. This girl as been nice, but not the right fit in terms of famlily and morals.

[NamastePlatypus]

Originally Posted by karne

I'm having a hard time following your concerns here. Are you saying that you have a relationship with a friend you don't care for, and have criticism about her parenting choices, personality, child rearing, etc? I'm not clear why you made the choice to go to her home, with your child or children, under these circumstances? If you want to have some relationship, perhaps it would be better to meet at a more neutral location where the ground rules work for everyone? It might be less stressful fo all.

If you were uncomfortable with the closed door, why didn't you leave? I guess I just don't get that piece. Different families have different rules, but you chose to go there is the first place, and then stay after that. I can't really comment on the older kids because it's hard for me to tell what was really happening. There's a pretty wide range of innocent to exploration some times at that age.

As far as having anger, I don't understand who you are angry with? Again, just from your post, it seems that this was a choice that you made for your family. Maybe there's something I am missing?

I DID leave. Most people we know let there kids play with the doors closed, and I have to contantly go back and make sure they are open. Even when the kids come here, they do it do my doors, and e is pretty good about reopening them. There is nowhere here to take kids, trust me if we could we would

In terms of the friendship, I have known her for two years. She has been a good friend in the past ( parenting issues aside, I know we all don't agree on everything but it has gotten worse the past 6 monthes), but she has changed alot in the past few monthes, I just thought it was from the hormones, ( she is trying to to be a surro. mom). I am not a fair weather friend and believe in the best of people. But as things have gotten worse and my children get older I am more aware of things that they come in contact with. I went back to her house to see if things were any better before I made the final decison of us going over there occasionally, for the benifit of the doubt. I got my answer.
We were angry that my 4 year old was placed in a situation that in my opinion was age inappropriate. Like I said I left as soon as it happened. I know it is hard for kids to keep doors open when they are not used to it, and E was trying to fox that situation 90 percent of the time, he is a kid and if he gets caught up in something he might forget.
I understand exploration and all that, it, to me, was wrong for them to direct the 4 and just turned 3 year old to do it if they want to be big kids and not babies. THAT is not ok to me. I am not going to say what is ok for her in terms of her kids, not my kids. But when it affected MINE. Not cool. I would like to think people have enough common sense to see when things are not right.

[velochic]

ETA: Nevermind. I'm no help, I can't figure out what's going on.

I hope you find the right solution, OP.

[Smithie]

"That is UNBELIEVABLE behavior for kids that age!!"

No, it's not. it's really, really believable. Sexualized play happens all the time, including among kids who have a perfectly healthy home life with no abuse. I certainly don't think parents need to accept or condone it - after all, isn't teaching our children appropriate boundaries for sexual expression a huge part of our job? - but there is no point in freaking out about it. "Married kissing" games have been going on since the beginning of time. Coercing younger children into said games is also a behavior with a loooong precedent. As the mom, you don't allow that and you teach that coercion is wrong. But there' no need to assume that the kids are going to wind up in actual sexual trouble later on because they were involved in this kind of thing in childhood.


OP, you did the right thing to leave and not go back. I would do the same. The point I'm trying to make above is that it's not the KIDS who have done something unforgivable and violated your trust, it's the other mom who doesn't deal with this issue when it occurs in a way that is acceptable to you.

[NamastePlatypus]

E is my son, which I stated to be 4. She is the ones with DD's not me.
Removed the name, but that was her DD2
I agree I am upset with the mom who sits by and says nothing about it and when she hears of it poos poos it like it were nothing to be worried of. This women was sexually abused as a child and her oldest DD was as well by a family member already. It is scary situation to me knowing the backround.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

I think your only answer is to not visit them anymore. I can understand why you are upset but you were in her home. As a guest, you have no right to make the rules for her children or her home. If closed doors are fine with her, then you have not right to insist otherwise. Here or at anyone else's house. You do, of course, have the right to insist that your child stay out of a door with a closed room or to leave. And, of course, if they are visiting you then you have every right in the world to insist on open doors.

I too think there may or may not be not-so-innocent play among the older children. But I don't think its CPS bad or really any of your concern. You have voiced your concern to the mom, she has indicated she doesn't have the same values or concerns that you do. You may be right, she may be right -- I can't tell. But once she has dismissed your concerns, your only choice really is to discontinue the friendship or change the "level" of it to something you are comfortable with.

[tanyam926]

I can understand why you would have concerns about your child playing in that type of situation.

What it comes down to though is that you disagree w/her on fundamental parenting issues, so much so that it negatively impacts your interaction w/her.

If I were you I would let the friendship go since you have nothing in common w/her. There's not really much else you can do. She knows what's going on and has chosen to handle it in a way that you don't agree w/.

[fiorio]

If the normal sexual exploration was going on just between the older DD and the neighbor boy I wouldn't say anything. But since the older children are involving the younger kids I think it is abuse. For the sake of the younger DD I think you should call CPS.

[sleepingbeauty]

Smithie--durrr... I think that in my rush to get what I wanted to say out screwed up my words and said something completely different.

I get sexual exploration and play at that age. I'm 20, it wasn't so long ago that I was doing things like that. We all did! What I *meant* to say that "That is UNBELIEVABLE *to allow this* behavior for kids that age!! I mean to say that the mother should at least be doing something about it. You said it yourself, it is the parents job to teach them what is ok or not in this field (including pressuring someone else...especially a 4 year old!). It sounds like the mother doesn't give a hoot what the girl is doing.

Make more sense? (kinda?) I really need to pay more attention when I get pissed. At least I yell coherently in person! lol

[pauletoy]

Originally Posted by tanyam926

I can understand why you would have concerns about your child playing in that type of situation.

What it comes down to though is that you disagree w/her on fundamental parenting issues, so much so that it negatively impacts your interaction w/her.

If I were you I would let the friendship go since you have nothing in common w/her. There's not really much else you can do. She knows what's going on and has chosen to handle it in a way that you don't agree w/.

[momo7]

For your own personal piece of mind, and for your child's safety......It's probably not a good idea to visit there anymore. However.....it's always good to get out of the house. A play date in a public place is always a good alternative. There aren't many opportunities for the kind of "play" that you are talking about.

For the record, as the voice of descent, I would say that that kind of play maybe "normal" but that doesn't make it acceptable. I would have serious issues with her parenting whether it's her house or not. Just because it's her house and her rules does not mean you have to accept it nor does it make it the right kind of play.

[JessicaS]

I would not visit them anymore.

[Oubliette8]

Originally Posted by NamastePlatypus

E is my son, which I stated to be 4. She is the ones with DD's not me.
Removed the name, but that was her DD2
I agree I am upset with the mom who sits by and says nothing about it and when she hears of it poos poos it like it were nothing to be worried of. This women was sexually abused as a child and her oldest DD was as well by a family member already. It is scary situation to me knowing the backround.

I'm a little confused with all the DD's here, so excuse me if I get it wrong but-

First off, it seems your decision is made up, and obviously you wont be bringing your boys over there again. however, as her friend, and witness to the behavior, I don't think it would be a bad idea to sit down with her, tel her what you saw and what you were told happened- it sounds like the DD and neighbor boy were doing more than just kissing games, and they tried to take off your son's pants, tried to pressure him into sexual activity, and told him it would make him grown up. Given the history of sexual abuse in the family, could you gently suggest that maybe the daughters could benefit from counseling to help them figure out these issues? Even if they had counseling already, sometimes kids need to do some more when they enter a new stage of development. I don't know the mother, so I'm not sure if thats they type of conversation she would react well to or not. It is possible that its normal sexual exploration, but your description makes it seem more than that. And even if nothings going on sexually, it sounds like the kids could use some counseling anyway.

[Sweetiemommy]

I don't think your child was "placed" in that situation, unless you mean by you. If you must bring him to visit this person (who seems better suited to an adult only relationship) you need to keep him with you at all times. He doesn't need to be playing in the other room. Maybe if you need to keep in touch with this person, you should make it a telephone only relationship or meet her at a library, fast food restaurant, whatever. Or maybe leave your child home with Dh while you visit her for an hour or so. Don't feel vicitimized, you have complete control over this situation, don't allow your child to witness or participate in this behavior.

[fiorio]

I want to clarify the impression I got from OP since no one else has mentioned it and I'm wondering if I got this mixed-up. Were the older kids (9 & 10) pressuring the younger ones (3 yo girl and OP's 4 yo DS) to engage in the sexual play? Because if that is the situation it isn't just a parenting difference. Sexual exploration between kids close in age is normal, but when there is a 5-7 year age difference it is abusive for the younger child. I think that needs to be addressed instead of just ending the friendship.

[intrepidmother]

If the 9 yr. old was sexually abused, then I would be especially concerned. Children who have experienced sexual abuse don't understand or know appropriate sexual boundaries. I wouldn't want my child to play with those children alone in a room where you couldn't easily observe them. You're right- you have to protect the innocence of your DS...

...and the fact that they tried to cover it up and keep your DS in a room with them means they know that what they were doing was inappropriate.

[Trinitty]

This is a violation of your son.

This is abnormal behaviour for children of this age.

This is most likely connected to sexual molestation or abuse of these children.

This will only get worse as your "friend" is a lazy and neglectful parent.

Do not socialize with this person again. Do not expose your children to her realm.

I feel sad for her children.... but that doesn't mean you risk your own in order to be around them.

I am with your husband, I would be livid if this happened to us.

Trin.