daycare situation. (long)

[2xshy]

I am currently facing a situation at my daughters daycare and would like some input on how you would handle this situation, any been there done that commiseration, and ideas on how to proceed.

My DD will be 2 in april. she has been at daycare since she was about 15 months. I have never had any major disagreements with them in so far as how she is treated or their ways of doing things but little things here and there have gotten to me.

Currently DD is in a biting, pinching phase. She has always been a biter, she was very mouthy as an infant and really likes to explore with her mouth, when she was smaller they were understanding of the biting as she was teething and her bites weren't so much out of frustration or anger but out of teething and not really knowing or having any understanding of what it does. Lately when she is frustrated she has been biting other children. a lot. it comes and goes though, we'll have a few weeks or a month of no biting and then she'll bite everyday for a few weeks. From what i can tell she bites for 2 reasons, out of frustration when she can't verbalize or other kids are pulling at her, she has to share or other toddler type frustrations and the second is when she hugs. She loves to hug kids, and sometimes when she hugs them she bites them on the cheek or ear pretty hard. I feel its like she "loves on them" too hard. So her daycare has been letting me know and they are using time outs with her when she bites. I'm not always thrilled with this but i understand they keep her in the same room and just have her cool down on a chair and let her know biting isn't nice. when she bites at home I very seldom use any kind of time out but i talk to her and try to help her verbaliize or try and give her something to agree with let me know she isn't ok with what we are doing. if after many many many times of her continuing to bite or be aggressive i will give her a time out, i will sit in her room while she is in her crib and we have a cool down period. and then talk about gentle touch and making nice. I dislike doing time out at all but sometimes i just need to break the pattern and re directing is not working.

The other morning at daycare when i dropped her off the director who is also on the floor told me they wanted me to hire a shadow for DD for the biting. it was early and i was just dropping her off so i was a bit shocked, but told them i would think about things and look into it. in retrospect i feel i should have been called or emailed and it given an appropriate amount of time for discussion.

I have several friends who work in behavioral psych with children, friends who work as shadows, and friends in special education all of whom i contacted and asked their opinions and thoughts on the situation.
My friend who works at a hospital with children with conduct disorders offered to come in for the day and observe DD at daycare and sit down with the staff and myself to put together a plan based on her background in this and what she saw of my DD and how they handled the situations. I know 1 day is not long but i feel her background and the ideas she and i discussed together could have been a positive start and the least invasive way to handle things and go from there. The daycare director essentially told me she could come but they would not change how they did things and pressed on with me finding a shadow for her for a few weeks as she thinks that will "cure" the biting issue.

DD is now being put with the older group of kids with whom she cannot relate to as well, because they say they can defend themselves from her. she is pushing more now because of this as i think the older kids are rougher with her. The daycare staff also go up to her multiple times a day and tell her "no biting" even when she is playing well with the other kids.

Some of the parents at the daycare are complaining about DDs biting and the daycare constantly is telling me this. I realize this is not pleasant behavior but from everything i have come to understand it is not out the realm of "normal" toddler behavior. I also feel all this negativity is making the situation worse.

my gut as her mother says this is a phase and she needs to worked with in a different approach then what is being taken currently. I feel a shadow may help for the 2 weeks they are present but in the end if her environment is not more supportive and less punitive this will continue.

I live in a province where daycare is extremely hard to come by, waiting lists exceed 2-3 years. I am making calls though in hopes i find a better suited establishment for her needs.(home daycare or otherwise) I cannot just take her out of daycare and not go to school or work. right now i rely on bursaries and loans for school to get by. I am a single and solo parent (no father around what so ever) and i do have my mother who helps out but she cannot take her as much as i would need. I feel like my hands right now are tied and i have to get a shadow for her to appease her daycare but feel this isn't the best route. (not to mention it will cost me over 1000$ but cost isn't the issue but its not a cheap thing to just "try out")

I feel like in some ways i am being discriminated against (i have a lot of tattoos,a few piercings ...) and i feel like they think i am some teen mom (though i dont feel that would be a bad thing) even though im close to 30. I feel their thoughts about me are translating to how they are treating my child and dealing with this situation or in particular their ultimatums i am given.

they are threatening to start suspending her.

if anyone has any thoughts please share.

thanks


i just wanted to add i but EVERYONE until i was 5. i was a terror. i had huge attachment issues though i think from being adopted, but none the less biting was my first defense for any situation. so i think in some ways this is how she is dealing with frustration, since i did the same thing.

[nextcommercial]

That's a tough one.

On one hand, of course the other parents are upset. I would be upset too. It sounds like everybody wants to fix this, and YOU are really working at it, so that is wonderful.

I have a daycare in my home, and I have only had one parent of a biter care what happens at daycare. They have never spent the amount of time you have trying to fix the situation.

Your daycare sounds great! I think they are a wonderful caring group of people. But, maybe a large group is just not the best fit for your daughter. It is very frustrating, and very tiring. Some kids just handle themselves better in a very small group.

Is there any way you could look into a home care situation where she is in multi age group? There may just be too many kids her age. Not all settings are the right place for every kid.

[CarrieMF]

If it's gotten to the point where they've moved her to an older class & want someone to shadow her then I"d say it's more than just her age or a phase.

I would let her your friend go in. 1 day isn't a long time, but it will give a good idea on whether this really is just a phase. They should keep doing what they're doing until a plan is worked out with you on how to handle what is going on.

if after many many many times of her continuing to bite or be aggressive i will give her a time out, i will sit in her room while she is in her crib and we have a cool down period. and then talk about gentle touch and making nice. I dislike doing time out at all but sometimes i just need to break the pattern and re directing is not working.

How many is "many many many times". Are we talking 2-3 or are we talking 6-7+? If it's only 2-3 then I agree what you're doing can help, however if you're letting it go more than that then it isn't working & you need to try a different approach. This is something that you should be stopping on the first 1-2 times, not letting it keep going.

[~PurityLake~]

My first thought is that perhaps your child is frustrated and exhausted by being around so many other children who are pre-verbal, or barely verbal. I know my older daughter, who took a long time to verbalize, would get very overwhelmed and over stimulated in larger groups. I agree that looking into a smaller group for her would likely help.

[Hey Mama!]

I've worked in a daycare and biters are common. Having someone shadow a biter is not uncommon either. But, if she is being aggressive at home and you let it go several times before consequences, then at this point she thinks it is an acceptable behavior. I would be offering a consequence every single time she bites or is aggressive at home. Ask to have a meeting with the teacher(s) and the director to work out a plan of action. What will the consequence be when she bites? How long of a period will they give her to stop biting? What will they do if she doesn't?

[choli]

[QUOTE=2xshy;15107915 when she bites at home I very seldom use any kind of time out but i talk to her and try to help her verbaliize or try and give her something to agree with let me know she isn't ok with what we are doing. if after many many many times of her continuing to bite or be aggressive i will give her a time out, i will sit in her room while she is in her crib and we have a cool down period. and then talk about gentle touch and making nice. [/QUOTE]


I think this is your problem. If you allow her to bite "many many times" at home, why would she behave any different at daycare? To be honest, if there was a kid who was constantly biting my child at daycare, I'd probably remove my child. There are phases, and there are behaviours that continue because they are not properly addressed.

[2xshy]

Originally Posted by CarrieMF

If it's gotten to the point where they've moved her to an older class & want someone to shadow her then I"d say it's more than just her age or a phase.

I would let her your friend go in. 1 day isn't a long time, but it will give a good idea on whether this really is just a phase. They should keep doing what they're doing until a plan is worked out with you on how to handle what is going on.



How many is "many many many times". Are we talking 2-3 or are we talking 6-7+? If it's only 2-3 then I agree what you're doing can help, however if you're letting it go more than that then it isn't working & you need to try a different approach. This is something that you should be stopping on the first 1-2 times, not letting it keep going.

it's not so much after a certain amount of times as per how many times or a vibe i get from her in a time period. if she is in a mood where this happens more it will happen quicker as her reactions will likely be one after another so after 2-3 times we have time out/time in.
if its over a longer period of time say a few hours and she does this again for the third time in say 3-4 hours we will have a cool down as well.

and while i do think its problematic that she has to be put with the big kids this was pretty much their only idea after the time outs did not work.

Originally Posted by ~Purity♥Lake~

My first thought is that perhaps your child is frustrated and exhausted by being around so many other children who are pre-verbal, or barely verbal. I know my older daughter, who took a long time to verbalize, would get very overwhelmed and over stimulated in larger groups. I agree that looking into a smaller group for her would likely help.

I am looking into smaller daycares at them moment i am putting all my mama friends on the look out and searching the lists and resources i have. her core group isnt very large maybe 8 children between 18 months and 2.5 years.


my dd is fairly verbal, she talks a lot and understands almost everything, its just that "heat of the moment" thing and she reverts to this behavior.


Her daycare goes on break next week for a week and i will try to arrange some kind of sit down discussion with them between now and when they resume. I do think a smaller group may be beneficial.

while finding a small daycare might be the best option i am unsure if i will be able to do so so if there is advice on how to proceed within my current situation that would be great too.

[2xshy]

i should add she doesn't bite me anymore but these times that i talk about are attempts to bite like moving my hand to her mouth while frustrated.


each time after it happens i sit down with her and tell her its not ok, and that it hurts and we talk about gentle touch and all that. i dont just ignore it and then after a while deal with it, in case that is what it sounded like.

[tanyam926]

I agree w/pps who suggested a smaller daycare situation if that's at all possible. Some kids really get overwhelmed and over excited in large, noisy groups.

If you could find a home daycare situation where there are only a few children, the caregiver might be able to more closely supervise your dd so that the biting can be avoided.

I don't know what else to suggest. It needs to stop ASAP bc other children are getting hurt, but at age 2 you can't just say STOP!, there needs to be a more creative approach, what I don't know bc I haven't BTDT.

It must really suck to be told your little angel is being such a stinker though bc I'm sure you want everyone to see how wonderful and loving she is. It must also really suck to feel like the daycare and other parents are thinking that the biting is somehow bc of your parenting.

Hope you guys can figure it out.

[freestylemama]

I'm coming at this from the perspective of a parent whose child was bitten multiple times by the same child. I think they're trying to be accommodating to your daughter, but maybe the place isn't a good fit for her right now. My daughter was bitten by the same child three times- two of which she had bruises and teeth shaped cut marks for three weeks. I was livid that this was happening to her and felt that her teachers weren't properly protecting her. I really can't explain how upset I was that we were paying so much money and trusting her at this place that came really well recommended and she was being bitten.

After the second time, I was furious and had a long talk with her teacher. I felt that her right to be safe and free from bruises and cuts far surpassed the biter's right to be in the class. They shadowed the biter (by assigning one of the teachers to always be with him- his parents didn't have to pay anything extra) and used time outs to separate him when he was hurting other children. I felt that this was extremely generous. Frankly, I remember telling my husband that if it happened again, we were going to pull our daughter from the school if he wasn't suspended or taken out- I was tired of the fact that the school's way of "working on it" left my child vulnerable and attacked. Luckily, it's not happened since and he seems to have quit. I'm really glad because other than this I adore my daughter's daycare and her teachers.

I wonder why they aren't just assigning a teacher to shadow her and protect the other kids and see what exactly's going on/triggering the bites? Have you thought about a nanny? It sounds like maybe your daughter's not a good fit for her current place.

I'm sorry that you feel like they're condescending to you. That must be really difficult.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by 2xshy

my dd is fairly verbal, she talks a lot and understands almost everything, its just that "heat of the moment" thing and she reverts to this behavior.

You said she bites when she hugs, too, which leads me to think it's not "heat of the moment" behavior.

I understand the daycare's position. In the states, they can be held responsible for any medical problems that come from biting (don't know about there). Also, other parents may leave or create major problems because of your dd's continued problem with biting. I don't see a shadow as a bad option given that she seems to be biting so much and for such a long period.

[~PurityLake~]

Originally Posted by 2xshy

I feel like in some ways i am being discriminated against (i have a lot of tattoos,a few piercings ...) and i feel like they think i am some teen mom (though i dont feel that would be a bad thing) even though im close to 30. I feel their thoughts about me are translating to how they are treating my child and dealing with this situation or in particular their ultimatums i am given.

Why do you think they feel that way about you? Why do you think they are judging your tattoos, piercings and age (even though you're not a teen, but you think they think you are)? Was there something said to you about those or are you making assumptions?

Do you think they are lying about your daughter's behavior due to animosity toward you, or do you think your daughter does have biting issues that need to be dealt with?

[2xshy]

I agree it must be terrible to have a child who is getting biten or harmed at daycare. I do feel as though i am working with her in the most appropriate manner for who she is and where she is at. I dont let her biting slide and do deal with it though i resort to time outs as a last resort. this doesnt mean i am not helping and guiding her through these moments in different ways.

I feel my frustration is largely right now with the fact that yes she bit and it was not a good thing but it was seldom for a long time and boom one day it was we are going to suspend her if you do not to these things with out any soft of change on their behalf to handle the behavior.
what im getting at by reading and seeing these responses is my problem is largely with their way of going about the situation. it's not that i am opposed to having her shadowed per se, more so i do think there is an amount of responsibility with in daycare providers to handle this situation differently and be less punitive. I feel she is picking up on the negativity and further reacting to that.

I am going to continue my search and arrange a meeting with them. I am also going to think of an alternate way to deal with this behavior at home if it is the case that i am being to relaxed with this whole thing.

[2xshy]

Originally Posted by ~Purity♥Lake~

Why do you think they feel that way about you? Why do you think they are judging your tattoos, piercings and age (even though you're not a teen, but you think they think you are)? Was there something said to you about those or are you making assumptions?

Do you think they are lying about your daughter's behavior due to animosity toward you, or do you think your daughter does have biting issues that need to be dealt with?

it is hard to pin point, but i feel as though i am being spoken to in a condescending manner at times. it is not overt but sometime i feel like i am being spoken to as if i am a 12 year old.

I know my DD has a biting problem and i am the first to want to work with them and find out ways we can deal with this. I feel though that the way in which they easily dismiss my ideas on how to handle the situation over the last few days comes from their pre formed notions about who i am.

I realize that sounds very ambiguous and vague but the way they interact with other parents and myself seems to have large differences, even before this whole biting fiasco.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

As a parent who has had children bitten in care, I don't think their request to have her shadowed is unreasonable. They need to keep the other children safe, end of story. Even if its an occasional behavior, it seems to be happening now and they are asking you to deal with it now. If I were a parent on the other side, I would be insisting that your child be shadowed or not allowed in school, starting immediately. To me it seems like your daycare is really trying to work with you. Timeouts aren't over "punitive" as preschool/daycare goes, especially if they aren't isolating her more than moving her to a chair. At least around here it would be hard to find a school that would do less than this.

I am curious why the first approach isn't to have a floater teacher or aid as a shadow, without costing you money.

As gentley as possible, I would suggest that you need to have her shadowed starting ASAP. If that doesn't seem to help or if you aren't willing to do this, then you need to find another care situation. I wouldn't think a home daycare would be any better as there are generally fewer adults around, unless she were the youngest in a small group. I would probably suggest a nanny rather than group care at all, at least for a while.

[snoopy5386]

how many times has she bitten at daycare? how many kids? What kind of marks does she leave?

[JL83]

My DD was bitten at daycare. I was furious when it happened a second time by the same kid.

It sounds like your daycare is trying to be super accommodating. From the other side of the fence, it sounds like they are being too accommodating. The other kids have a right not to be bitten.

Hire the shadow or find another daycare. It sounds like your DD has been given lots of time to stop.

One of the biters at DD's daycare had a shadow for a month. And it did help. That person had 1 job and that was to stay close enough to that boy to stop him before he bit another kid. In the process, she was able to work with him to use his words instead of biting. At the end of the month, the kid didn't bite anymore. He was still rough but it was much better

[ollyoxenfree]

I suspect the other parents have given notice to the daycare that they won't tolerate the situation any longer. Hence the ambush at morning drop off and the threats to suspend her if things don't change. You're right, they should have contacted you separately to talk about it at a time when you could properly discuss it. Even if they had, though, you would still have to take more effective action to resolve the problem.

I recall when dd was bitten at pre-school. We told dd to avoid that child. The other students didn't like to play with the biter either, and I suspect that child had a pretty lonely, unhappy time there.

It's a tough situation. A shadow sounds like a good place to start. You may be right that a less negative attitude may also help. However, consider that when your dd bites another child, the immediate situation is going to be REALLY negative. The staff will be dealing with a screaming, crying injured child, as well as your dd who is also likely crying and angry at that point too. The other children may also be upset too. When your dd bites you at home, you have the luxury of a much more contained situation, and a one-to-one adult-to-child ratio for dealing with it.

I am also wondering, like others, whether a different daycare situation would be more suitable.

[Aubergine68]

Originally Posted by 2xshy

I realize that sounds very ambiguous and vague but the way they interact with other parents and myself seems to have large differences, even before this whole biting fiasco.

I came over to check out responses to your cross-post from Working and Student Parents.

I am sorry that you are going through this stress.

If you really do feel disrespected by the staff, and on other issues, not just the stress over this one, then maybe finding a different care situation might make things easier for the both of you. Your daughter needs to experience her mom and her caregivers working together and respecting each other. Children can sense conflict and it can manifest in behavior problems.

It is really hard when there is a shortage of care in your area. I hope your situation settles down quickly one way or another. Will it be easier when your daughter turns 2? She might be an easier fit in more places if she falls into an older age group in your province then.

I think that the advice to consider a home daycare is also very, very good, if you can manage it. An environment where your dd is one of only maybe 2 or 3 little ones and with older children to model better behavior for her might be just what she needs.

[LynnS6]

I think that a shadow is a great idea. And I don't think it's discriminatory. For many kids, stopping them before they can make contact is the fastest way to reinforce that this is unacceptable behavior. At home, it's pretty easy to do that, because you're one-on-one. In a group of kids, it's so hard to catch a biter if you've got 3-5 other kids you're paying attention to. A shadow can fill that roll. And it probably won't take long.

I'd also take your friend up on her offer to observe your dd. She can get a sense of what's working and what's not. Is it really better to move her up to be with older kids (who probably have a lower child-staff ratio)? Maybe it is, maybe it's not. Being with older, more verbal kids might be easier for her.

One suggestion, the staff's telling your daughter 'no biting' when she's not biting is not very helpful and might be harmful. They'd be much better off telling her "be gentle" if they're worried. That tells her what to do. Saying "no biting" simply reminds her of biting.

It's hard when you're young, single and don't look like the perfect suburban mother. But I'd assume, as much as you can, that they want to work with you.