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Decided NFP is Wrong....

post #1 of 44
Thread Starter 
I realize that current Church teaching says NFP is okay in extreme circumstances. However, I have decided that I disagree with these teachings and with the clergy that support them.

Common sense led me to question the use of NFP to avoid pregnancy. It sounds simplistic, but I kept thinking that purposely avoiding pregnancy undermined God’s control and authority. It tells God no and assumes that you know better.

So, once again, I asked the question and looked for an answer. I read the NFP material, the Priests For Life site, the Catechism, etc. All fallible.

Enter “Casti Connubii,” a papal encyclical issued in 1931… ex cathedra. Pope Pius XI’s statements in this document are infallible, meaning that they come straight from the Holy Spirit, and all Catholics are bound to this teaching. Nothing can change it, nothing can declare it null and void, nothing can modify it.

Marriage has one sole, primary purpose: to procreate and educate children. This is also the primary purpose of sex. Here is a quote from the document:

“For in matrimony as well as in the use of the matrimonial right [sex] there are secondary ends, such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence which husband and wife are not forbidden to consider so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved.”

It’s interesting that when I learned about the purpose of marriage, I learned (or at least perceived) that these two purposes were equal. That was wrong. But, I digress.

Now, keeping all that in mind, here is another quote from the encyclical.

“…Others say that they cannot on the one hand remain continent nor on the other can they have children because of the difficulties whether on the part of the mother or on the part of the family circumstances. But no reason, however grave, may be put forward by which anything intrinsically against nature may become conformable to nature and morally good. Since, therefore, the conjugal act is destined primarily by nature for the begetting of children, those who in exercising it deliberately frustrate its natural powers and purpose, sin against nature and commit a deed which is shameful and intrinsically vicious.”

The best way to sum it up is to quote a source I have been reading: “To summarize: the only difference between artificial contraception and NFP is that artificial contraception frustrates the power of the marriage act itself, while NFP frustrates its primary purpose (by subordinating the procreation of children to other things).”

St. Augustine (from “The Morals of the Manichees”): “Marriage, as the marriage tablets themselves proclaim, joins male and female for the procreation of children. Whoever says that to procreate children is a worse sin than to copulate thereby prohibits the purpose of marriage; and he makes the woman no more a wife than a harlot, who, when she has been given certain gifts, is joined to a man to satisfy his lust. If there is a wife, there is matrimony. But there is no matrimony where motherhood is prevented, for then there is no wife.”

St. Caesar of Arles: “As often as he knows his wife without a desire for children…without a doubt he commits sin.”

St. John Vianney (to a mother with many children who was feeling overwhelmed and old): “Be comforted my child; if you only knew the women who will go to Hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it!”

Thoughts?
post #2 of 44
Thread Starter 
Pro-NFP people argue that NFP does not frustrate the act of sex since no act takes place. They say it is not a sin against nature, but that it is actually natural. This is why they say it is different than birth control- there is nothing artificial occurring to prevent pregnancy.

The problem is that the Pope specifies that not only act, but also the purpose of marriage must be preserved. NFP is condemned because it puts the secondary ends of marriage and sex before the primary purpose of marriage and sex (procreation). It does this by trying to avoid children (read: the primary purpose of marriage and sex) while still having sex. Basically, NFP flips the order of the purposes of marriage, emphasizing the mutual bond over the creation of children. Pope Pius XI was very clear that this was never to be done, and would never be morally acceptable.
post #3 of 44
But don't you also believe that Mary got pregnant without dtd? IN which case God can get anyone pregnant right? Which also gets me thinking..she was married to joseph right? so why weren't they getting it on (if you say God's will is to procreate all the time)

Do you also believe you shouldn't wear a seat belt because maybe you were supposed to die in an accident? Things like that?

Sounds too black and white to me (but I am in no way Catholic).

I also promise i'm not being snarky...just random thoughts that popped into my head
post #4 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by hollytheteacher View Post
But don't you also believe that Mary got pregnant without dtd? IN which case God can get anyone pregnant right? Which also gets me thinking..she was married to joseph right? so why weren't they getting it on (if you say God's will is to procreate all the time)
Mary and Joseph were engaged, but not yet married when she became pregnant with Jesus. Joseph married her anyway, but they did not "get it on" until after Jesus was born.
post #5 of 44
If the primary purpose of marriage is procreation, that implies that infertile people can never marry. I do not believe this.
post #6 of 44
Disclaimer- I'm not Catholic

So this brought up a couple questions for me. What about couples that are infertile, should they have a celibate marriage? What about post menopausal women? What about women who have dangerous pregnancies for some medical reason? Is it ONLY about procreation? Does the St. John Vianney quote mean that childless couples will go to hell or just those that practiced a form of birth control?

My main question (again from a non-Catholic perspective) is: is it really better that a woman/family sacrifice themselves (health, goals, financial stability, etc) than naturally prevent a pregnancy by abstaining from intercourse? I just feel that it is more a position of martyrdom for many women (certainly not all!!) to give their lives to child bearing and rearing, isn't there more to life? How can one financially support missionaries, devote time to local charities, etc, when all resources go to the unlimited procreation? I guess, for me, if it's something a woman/family chooses then that's great, but if it's something a woman "suffers" because her religion tells her she has to, I don't think that's right. My basis for this is that I don't remember ever reading these things in the Bible and that is my only true guide. It is certainly possible that I missed them as I wasn't looking for it so I welcome passages if you have them.

Thank you for helping me learn more about other religious beliefs!
post #7 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by just_lily View Post
Mary and Joseph were engaged, but not yet married when she became pregnant with Jesus. Joseph married her anyway, but they did not "get it on" until after Jesus was born.
I think she was referring to the Catholic teaching that Mary remained a virgin for the duration of her life; which (at least as far as I can understand from the original post) doesn't really fall in line with what the OP was saying. I.e., if married people should not abstain from sex, then why was it OK for the mother of God?
Unless perhaps she was referring to the idea of abstaining from sex for the sole purpose of birth control being wrong (of course I--lapsed Catholic but happy NFP practitioner --would respectfully disagree which in that case, if Mary and Joseph chose to have a celibate marriage for some other reason besides birth control, then would be OK.
post #8 of 44
If you take your interpretation to it's logical conclusion, you can't have sex when you are unable to become pregnant. So you would have to chart to determine when you are not allowed to have sex!
post #9 of 44
Also not Catholic, but gonna answer (and not touche the primary purpose of marriage thing either).

When God make the woman he gives her a cycle, fertile days and non-fertile days. However, he makes it possible for a woman to get pregnant any time she has sex. It could easily be argued that NFP is not a methode of deciding you know more then God about when you should have children because the possibility is still there, but more of a way of asking that not have children at this moment that God for the most part respects.

It can also be aruged that God designed a woman's cycle the way he did for this very reason. Not all female animals have a cycle some only ovulate when they actually have sex.
post #10 of 44
As a former Roman Catholic, I think your ideas are perfectly consistent with RC teaching.

Augustine was the basis for a great deal of RC theology, and he took a stern view of marital sex. He argued that it was sinful except for the explicit purpose of conceiving children, and that only procreation justifies marital relations. Later RC theologians expanded on his ideas. This thinking is the basis of other aspects of the RC church, such as the celibate clergy and (some would argue) the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

A Christian denomination which held different doctrines on the nature of the human body; the sacrament of marriage; the attributes of man prior to the Fall; and sin, would naturally come to different conclusions about whether something like NFP is wrong.

In other words, I disagree with your conclusion because I question the truth of the grounds you base it on; but there is no doubt that your conviction is based soundly on Roman Catholic principles and beliefs.
post #11 of 44
Not in any way Catholic or even Christian, so take this for what it's worth ... but Biblically, I don't see how you can say the purpose of marriage is procreation.

It says very bluntly in Bereishis/Genesis, right in the beginning, with the "first couple," the purpose for marriage: It's not good to be alone.
post #12 of 44
I agree with you, and I'm seconding what merpk said, too. However, take my opinion with a grain of salt: I'm Catholic, but I don't believe in papal infallibility/ex cathedra statements. Humans can't be infallible, IMO, not even when you're elected pope. Bring on the "cafeteria Catholic" flames.
post #13 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcstar View Post
If the primary purpose of marriage is procreation, that implies that infertile people can never marry. I do not believe this.
Okay, I am no longer Catholic but went to Catholic school from kindergarten to 12th grade. You can be married but if you do not have children, no matter what the reason, your marriage is not a holy sacrament in the eyes of the church (There are 7 holy sacraments). That is the way I understand it.
post #14 of 44
Thread Starter 
Hey all My son started running a fever so I haven't had a chance to comment or provide further explanation.

Regarding the thought that if this is true, you can't have sex when infertile: Pius XI commented on this in the document.

"Nor are those considered as acting against nature who in the married state use their right [sex] in the proper manner although on account of natural reasons either of time or of certain defects, new life cannot be brought forth. For in matrimony as well as in the use of the matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends, such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence which husband and wife are not forbidden to consider so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved."
post #15 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by hopefulfaith View Post
I agree with you, and I'm seconding what merpk said, too. However, take my opinion with a grain of salt: I'm Catholic, but I don't believe in papal infallibility/ex cathedra statements. Humans can't be infallible, IMO, not even when you're elected pope. Bring on the "cafeteria Catholic" flames.
As American Catholics use birth control at just about the same rate as non-Catholics, I think you are in very good company. Most of the regular RC posters here are much more conservative than average.
post #16 of 44
Thread Starter 
kcstar: The Catholic Church says it is permissible to marry of you are infertile, but not if you are impotent. In other words, you have to be able to complete the act of sex to conjugate your marriage. Obviously people who marry at an age past childbearing would be exempt from this.

Catholic believe that Mary and Joseph were celibate. They were kind of a "special" couple, with her being the mother of God and all.... Aside from that consideration, the Church didn't really exist (at least in the current structure with the current teachings) back then. If you wanted to go down the Marian road, you could easily use Mary as an example of NFP being wrong. According to the "rules" of NFP, you can only use it to avoid in serious circumstances. Mary totally could have qualified under that, and told the angel "no." Instead, she remained open to life and said "yes." Really, though, this comparison doesn't work well because, as I said, Mary wasn't exactly typical, nor was her situation....
post #17 of 44
Thread Starter 
Regarding this teaching and the Bible:

One of the things that shocked me was that this IS in the bible, and pretty obviously. I just never knew it before... of course, I grew up in the charasmatic movement and didn't really read my bible....

First of all, the bible says God created man and female on the sixth day. Eve wasn't created for Adam until later. So, before Eve came into being, God issued ONE command to the men and women He created: "Go forth and multiply." THe very first commandment from God to His people was to have babies (basically, in my own words of course).This occured BEFORE He created someone for Adam.

The bible is clear that the primary reason for sex is procreation. It says that if man has sex without a desire for children (openness to life), it is lust and it is wrong. THe best example of this is found in Tobit (Tobias). Tobias married a woman who had been married seven times before. All her husbands had died, and this scared the crap out of Tobias. The angel Raphael came to him basically told him that the reason her previous husbands had died was because they were desiring to conjugate the marriage with lust for her, and not with the purpose of bearing children. Tobias waited 3 days before sleeping with his wife to ensure that he did so only for want of children and not out of lust. Tobias 6: 22, “And when the third night is past, thou shalt take the virgin with the fear of the Lord, moved rather for love of children than for lust, that in the seed of Abraham thou mayest obtain a blessing in children.”
post #18 of 44
Thread Starter 
Bellabaz: Not sure where you got that from, but that is not what the Church teaches.
post #19 of 44
cagnew, the book of tobit/tobias isn't included in protestants' bibles. not that it matters to you - just saying many people won't get your reference.

if mary remained a virgin, who were jesus' brothers? did joseph have another wife?
post #20 of 44
This is a bit OT, and I am not Roman Catholic...but how do you know which stories/passages from the Old Testament still hold authority and which ones are tossed out as being too legalistic? I am just wondering why the story of Tobias or Genesis can be taken as an example of proper sexual conduct, but it's ok to disregard the laws laid down in Leviticus, for example.

Also, just out of curiousity, are there passages in the New Testament that directly refer to "openness to life" within the context of marriage/sexuality, or is that something that mostly originates in the Old Testament?

Forgive me, I know very little about Roman Catholic theology, but I am curious, especially after reading recent threads here on the RC Church and birth control, etc. etc.
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