When not helping clean up is a huge trigger for you...

[Lohagrace]

I need advice from mamas for whom messes and refusal to help clean up really trigger you. I feel i'm able to remain calm and connected with my kids, then the cleaning thing comes up and I will seriously FLIP OUT.
Two examples:
I come downstairs and DS has climbed up a shelf, taken every puzzle, every game and threw them on the floor and they are all mixed up. I went into a rage screaming and throwing things into a garbage bag.

I asked my daughter to help clean up and she says "Why dont you have to do anything? i have to do it all!" [which triggers me because for a long time i had a story that my kids treat me like a slave and i don't get to have a clean house or anything nice, nobody but me does any work around here, etc etc. i know that isn't true, but the story in my head is easily triggered]. She then says "ok in a minute" and proceeds to dink around for about 10 minutes while i'm picking up like 10000 things that are all over the floor. Finally I am like "GET DOWN HERE AND HELP ME CLEAN UP! YOU ARE JUST STANDING THERE SAYING ONE MORE MINUTE AND NOT DOING ANYTHING!!" Which triggers her into defensive mode and then I end up screaming at her to get in her room until she is willing to help.

I dont know why, but lack of cooperation with cleaning is such a huge trigger for me. i've tried all the how to talk things like
1. describing "i see puzzle pieces all over the floor"
2. describing my feelings "i feel angry and resentful when i have to clean up all by myself"
3. Saying with one word instead of lecturing/nagging "elsie, puzzles!"

she'll just stand there and look at me or say "why do i have to do it?" or something.
DH and i went through and got rid of two giant garbage bags of toys so there is less to deal with, but what is left is always all over the floor. I get that i'm the one who wants it clean, and my kids could give a cr*p if the floor is so covered in stuff you can't even walk around.

Any advice, or tips is so appreciated!

[hakeber]

Was it in their space or common space? Is there a way you can partition off space that is their space that they are free to leave stuff all over?

Benjamin's room is his room and he does not have to have it tidy, but it can't be a fire hazard, and there has to be a clear path from the door to the bed in case dh or I need to help him in the middle of the night in the dark.

Also I got some masking tape and sectioned off an area of the living space that was for Benjamin to do with as he liked (out of the way in the corner). He could build tracks there line up his trains, whatever he wanted and I wouldn't fuss at him to pick up though I might tidy it myself if I want the house to look nice. I offer him rewards if he cleans up when I ask him to (he's saving for a new fish for his fish tank so a few coins -- like 50 cents -- is usually enough to inspire movement), but it is his area to be messy in. We also explained that if the toys are left out beyond this area, and I have to ask more than once for them to get put back they will disappear for one week.

It has worked really well for us. ONCE he tested me on the out of bounds rule and lost his favorite brand new train for a week and he has never crossed the line again. I wish all of life could be so clearly outlined.

Cleaning up is a HUGE chore for me. I loathe tidying up and I always offer myself a wee treat after doing it, like a trip up to the communitys pool, or a bowl fo fresh strawberries, or an hour of junky TV, so if I want ds or dh to help me clean up I do the same thing...Help me tidy your room and we'll grab an ice cream afterwards.

Can I ask a question...why didn't your ds have to help clean up if he had dumped them? is he too small to help? Was your dd supposed to be watching him and should have called you for help?

[Lohagrace]

There is a basement that's their area, but it gets so out of control messy (in like 2 days) that we need to put stuff away otherwise stuff gets ruined or pieces get lost, etc. ALso there's a flooding issue, so water coming in the basement can ruin stuff. I guess i could just have a natural consequence like "we didn't clean up and now that puzzle got wet and ruined and needs to go in the trash". or "you guys lost all the pieces to Sorry and now we can't play the game anymore". i think *I* have an attachment to their things not getting ruined/lost. Maybe i need to let go of that and let them take care of their own things.

My son brings puzzles and they both have markers in the dining room and they always bring stuff into the dining room/kitchen (one big open area) until its everywhere--i know i could make a "rule" they can't bring stuff in there, but as we all know rules need to be enforced and how do i deal with that one? i guess if things are left there they could lose them for a week or something like you do. present it like a choice "you can clean up your markers before bed or they can go away for a week you choose" but that feels so punitive? i dont know. i also think DS is too little to understand losing his puzzles for a week and he's the one mainly bringing stuff into the dining room.

as for why DS didn't have to help, he did. But DD had to help because A) when i flew into that rage, i wanted the whole basement cleaned up and wanted her to help with that and B) she shoudl have said something to me or stopped him. She is kind of "watching" him when they are down there and she didn't say a word about him completely trashing the place.

DH and i talked about, and have implimented a "your room can be as messy as you like" policy. I had the same policy from my parents growing up and i think it serves to eliminate that struggle and also gives the child autonomy over their room. if its theirs, they should be able to have it as messy as they want as long as its not a safety or disgusting health problem (like rotting food, but we dont let her take food in there for that very reason).

maybe we could have a family meeting about all of this...

[hakeber]

ahhh, okay, because it sounded like ds was off the hook and I was think 3 yo is old enough to help pick up.

So dd was feeling a need to assert her autonomy, eh?

I have to admit that it IS punitive to take away the toys that come out of bounds and are left around, but I feel like the living room and the kitchen and the dining room are communal spaces and so they need to be kept safe. If the stuff was in the dining room but neatly stacked and piled and not all over the joint, you probably wouldn't mind, but I guess my rule is just that if it LOOKS like trash and is being treated like trash it must be trash...except like you I have an attachment to the play things I have spent my hard earned money on so my kids can have fun and nice things to play with and it makes me when ds doesn't respect that, even though I know he is really too young to understand that concept. So my compromise to myself is to store it away for a week. then give it back with a reminder that it needs to be kept tidy in family spaces.

We only started this with ds a month ago, so yeah he probably is. DS only started to help tidy and clean up at about 2.5 or three and he only got GOOD at helping like...ummmm last week? so yeah.

I think the natural consequences are okay, with things that you don't mind if they ruin them, but maybe for the toys you really love and deep in your heart you are really only lending to them or letting them play with for now and you wish to have those toys around for a long time for future children or grandchildren, maybe keep those things in your room or in a hall closet and take them out when they ask to play with them or when you want to play with them...like the board games or puzzles that require a grown up's help, for example?

[sunnmama]

Can you limit the ability to make a mess?

My ds is 3. He has lots of puzzles and games, but only 3-4 available at one time. If he dumped them a lot, that might be 1 or none. I keep the extra puzzles in a place I can access, and I rotate them regularly or get out anything he specifically requests.

Similarly, I only have a few "messy" sets of toys out at a time. If he wants another thing, I'll get it down from up high...but I put something else messy "up". It isn't punitive, just disaster management. And forming good habits I understand that the puzzles and games were "up" and your ds climbed to them, so maybe those out of rotation need to be stored elsewhere. Also, I've found that both of my dc actually play with toys more (as opposed to strewing them) if they have a limited amt available.

I don't think it is reasonable to expect a 6 yo to alert you when another child is making a mess. She may be too involved in her own thing to notice. eta...also, 6 yo judgment is, well, 6 yo judgment

Also, I think it is completely ok for you to care about and insist upon the safe-keeping of their toys. It models good habits and values. Some toys are consumables, but most can be passed down and used by child after child if cared for properly. Destroying toys is simply wasteful.

[dachshundqueen]

Originally Posted by sunnmama

Can you limit the ability to make a mess?

I hide toys in boxes in closets. If you cannot manage what you've got, then you only get limited access.

I also used to have a mindset that only I ever did anything. It took me some personal growth time to understand how this negative mindset was slowly eroding both my children's confidence, my ability to be a quality parent, and our general overall family atmosphere became very negative.

It took some doing, but if you're still in that frame of mind, when you want to go ballistic, go to your room instead for a few minutes and relax instead.

Liz

[Anastasiya]

When kids deliberately make messes just to make messes - like dumping out toys and puzzles for no reason other than to dump - then I tell them it needs to be picked up. If they refuse, I very quietly and calmly say, "If Momma has to pick up the toys, then Momma gets to decide what to do with them." Then I proceed to pick up the toys, putting them in a trash bag, and do with them as I wish. Sometimes they are thrown out, sometimes put in the donate bag, sometimes just stashed away for days, weeks or months on end.

They learned pretty quickly, though it took them awhile. And for nearly two months they had nothing in the house but books.

As for having an "off limits" area, my living room is off limits. I have only puzzles in there and some baby toys in a basket. Nothing else is allowed back there because I need one clean room for my own sanity and the baby's safety.

[jewelsJZ]

We have the same issue here and it drives me bonkers so I removed about half of their toys, esp. the ones with lots of pieces that I often found myself picking up. I put them all down in the basement in storage. They have not missed them and it has certainly helped not to have as big of messes. They still have puzzles, they just have 5 of them instead of 20. They still have board games, but there are 3 instead of 10. I may switch them out later or I may just get rid of them, who knows.
I also moved some toys up to their rooms because it doesn't bother me nearly as much if their rooms are a mess as it does if, say, there are toys all over the kitchen floor and I am trying to make lunch.
I have found that there are certain things that they will give me a hard time about cleaning up more than others. For my 3 year old dd, it was the train tracks. She wanted to set them up all over the floor in the foyer, rather than on the train table. I literally could not open the front door without moving tracks, trains, etc. If asked to clean up, she would cry and not do it, so I just put all the trains and tracks away and we'll try again in a couple of months. This is my new thing with stuff she won't clean up. If you can get it out, but can't clean it up, you must not be old enough for it and it goes away until you are a little bit older.

[Lohagrace]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. It sounds like I really just need to limit available toys more. I don't know why this is hard for me. Maybe i just want them to have access to what they have, but I don't know why they should. I dont think they would miss 75% of their stuff if i put it away.

I'm also going to have to let go of clean room/clean basement play area. It really doesn't, in the scheme of things, matter if its trashed and its certainly not more important to have it clean than to have me in a rage. i sure do feel calmer, happier and less stressed when the house is clean, though. i suppose that is my issue to deal with

in order to deal with that, i've made a rule to have no food or drink in rooms or downstairs ever. its going to be hard to enforce no popcorn/crackers and things like that in the basement, but at least i can know that if there is a mess down there its not an unsanitary mess with food.

I just need to deal with all this when i'm calm--not in the heat of the moment getting triggered by the mess and the refusal to clean it. The refusal is really what the problem is, not the mess. i need to go back to my "how to talk' language of just telling them how i feel "i really resent having to clean this up by myself" rather than going ape shit.

[MissSJ]

Lohagrace,
I wish I had some advice for you on this but we too have a horrible problem with this. It has been much worse lately since I am in school full time and don't have much time to clean up the house. There are toys EVERYWHERE, I think there is at least one toy in every room in this house. It. is. awful.

DS2 is the one who really refuses to help and he is 3. His excuses are "I'm too tired" "it will be too long" "my body doesn't want to and I listen to my body"

I have tried taking toys, I have tried putting most of the toys away but DS1 found a way to open the locked closet door and get them out again. Bah, one day I will get a handle on this.

If you find something that works for you let us know!

[K-Mom3]

Just want to say, I know what you mean about triggers.

I've been trying to teach myself to act more slowly when I am angry about something like that. So, if I walk into the living room and see that there are cereal trails all over it and I know I want to yell.....I leave the room and sit quietly and try to think reasonably what to do about it, how to help my child remember or obey better next time, etc. Sometimes to get there I have to write down my brainstorm or talk it over with dh. I can usually come up with a calm approach that is much better parenting than yelling.

The hardest part is stopping as I'm getting angry, before I start yelling. But I think I'm getting better. I read in one parenting book that the author would give himself points for good parenting and positive thought patterns and after a set number of points he would have "earned" the chance to buy himself a new golf club or something. Sounds like a good technique to me, to train yourself to control emotions, thoughts and actions.

[Materfamilias]

We have the same problem if there are too many toys, so I rotate them. I honestly think having too many of the bloody things just overwhelms their synapses. And besides, when it's rotation time, it's like Christmas because they've forgotten all about the toys that were in storage

[umsami]

I just realized that this was a big trigger for me. I also realized that the problem was too much stuff. I've been working on decluttering a lot of stuff. I also went to the kids and basically told them that this was a problem for me, and could they help me choose toys that they no longer wanted to donate to the Goodwill. I was *shocked* at how readily they were willing to help. It's not quite where I want things yet.. .but it's helping a lot!

[aiea]

Great posts, I am reading with interest and need help on this too.

One thing that helped me was a technique I read in 'Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline'. I ask for help cleaning up a certain thing (say a puzzle) and when help is slow to start, I tell my 3.5yo "find that fish piece and put it in the box". I will say it playfully or assertively, and if she ignores I will point to it, she'll tend to go for it, I say "yeah that's the one" and she tends to do it.

If I become the leader, she will follow. And once the ball is rolling we have a game as we pick up.

Maybe she'll outgrow it but for now it's working.

[Minxie]

Originally Posted by Anastasiya

When kids deliberately make messes just to make messes - like dumping out toys and puzzles for no reason other than to dump - then I tell them it needs to be picked up. If they refuse, I very quietly and calmly say, "If Momma has to pick up the toys, then Momma gets to decide what to do with them." Then I proceed to pick up the toys, putting them in a trash bag, and do with them as I wish. Sometimes they are thrown out, sometimes put in the donate bag, sometimes just stashed away for days, weeks or months on end.

They learned pretty quickly, though it took them awhile. And for nearly two months they had nothing in the house but books.

"I will be keeping (throwing away, donating) all the toys I pick up today."

It's an expression of what YOU intend to do and NOT presented as a punishment for them. Then DO IT.

[spottiew]

I just repeat calmly as much as needed that we need to clean it up (cause I will help), and that nothing else is going to happen before then. No food, no playing... nothing that he wants from me. I guess this works cause he WON"T just go and play anything else by himself. If he wants me (and he does), then we clean.

[camracrazy]

I recently began donating all of the toys that aren't really played with, but just used to make messes. For example, my kids had Legos/Duplos in all three sizes (the mega ones, the medium ones and the small ones). They rarely built anything with them but I routinely found them all over the floor. They prefer to build with wooden blocks anyway, so they can crash their creations! I haven't heard a thing about the legos since they went bye-bye. I also went through and got rid of the puzzles and other games that were missing parts. Anything that I don't want them losing the pieces to (like puzzles and board games) gets put in the closet, where the older kids have access to it but it's not on the baby's radar!

I think this helps a lot because it makes pick up not so overwhelming. It only takes them 2 seconds to dump 100 legos, but it takes a heck of a lot longer to pick them all up. And just LOOKING at the size of the mess is discouraging! Now most of their play sets have 20 or so pieces that go together and picking up 20 pieces is a lot easier than picking up 100.

[llwr]

My 3yo is much more willing to help if the toy asks her to be put away. Like in a funny voice, "I'm tired, will you please put me to bed" or "I miss my friends". I do this all the time, to get her to put away, brush teeth, stay in her bed.....

[starlein26]

Originally Posted by Lohagrace

I dont know why, but lack of cooperation with cleaning is such a huge trigger for me.

I identified that within myself as feelings of helplessness and of lacking control. Did you by chance grow up in an abusive home? I did. And the feelings I have when my children directly defy me are the same ones that I had when my parents controlled me/emotionally abused me...
Once I processed that, my interactions with my children (surrounding
previously defied behaviors) became easier for me to tolerate, hence discipline.