Any non-Christians seen the Passion?

[DaryLLL]

If you went, why? Please post review.

[mahdokht]

I haven't gone yet, but I plan to go. The kids at my husband's school ( we are in the bible belt) have been talking about it a great deal and many decided to go. My husband decided to plan a school trip so that he could talk to him about the history of passion plays, islamic version of things, different views of jesus etc before and after and head off any problems. I decided that I would like to go with them and thanks to the many threads here I am going to request that my husband let me speak to the class about anti-semetism and the controversies that have arisen from this movie.

[mahdokht]

Originally posted by mahdokht
I haven't gone yet, but I plan to go. The kids at my husband's school ( we are in the bible belt) have been talking about it a great deal and many decided to go. My husband decided to plan a school trip so that he could talk to him about the history of passion plays, islamic version of things, different views of jesus etc before and after and head off any problems. I decided that I would like to go with them and thanks to the many threads here I am going to request that my husband let me speak to the class about anti-semetism and the controversies that have arisen from this movie.

*edited to add that this is a class of Juniors and Seniors in high school, not young children.

[kama'aina mama]

Wow. God bless you. It's a good cause and I admire you for undertaking it. Likewise your DH.

[DaryLLL]

Hmm, I am guessing from lack of response to this thread, the $117 mill was mostly believers then.

Good luck, madokht!

[Ravin]

I will probably eventually see it, either through renting it or when it gets to the less expensive theaters (I'm broke and haven't been to a movie since December).

I'll see it because I want to hear what Aramaic sounds like. I've heard it's a beautiful language, and I can believe it as I've heard it's similar to Arabic, which I think is a very beautiful language.

I'll also see it because the controversy made me curious, and because I want to compare it to the conceptions I had of the whole thing when I was growing up (formed in large part by Chick publications graphic novels my grandfather carried in his Bible bookstore, which I read voraciously at the age of 12).

[Meiri]

No interest in seeing it here, though MIL wanted to take DS. He doesn't want to see it at all and she accepted my explaination about why we didn't want him to see it either.

OTOH, I'd love to be able to take him to see Jesus Christ Superstar, which will be in Pittsburgh in early April. but if we can't afford decent tickets to see Lion King, I don't think we can afford tickets to this.

[fromscatteredtribe]

I am a Christian and have posted some of my response to the film (which I saw opening night). While it was a serious financial sacrifice, and was difficult to watch, I wanted to support the film from the beginning. I hope this thread stays alive long enough for non-Christian responses to the original question "why do you plan to see it?" and also for some dialogue about how non-Christians felt after seeing the film. I want all adults to see the film, if nothing else for the historical and artistic experiences, but I also know that the impact will be different for those professing other faiths, cultural or heriditary christians, and christian converts like me. I always like thoughtful dialogue.

Off topic, Jodi: what is a graphic novel (i noticed league of extraordinary gentlemen is based on one) matt and I deliberated and decided it probably did not mean a pornographic novel, but some sort of lengthy comic book...since you coincidentally mention it here.....

[DaryLLL]

Originally posted by fromscatteredtribe I hope this thread stays alive long enough for non-Christian responses to the original question "why do you plan to see it?" and also for some dialogue about how non-Christians felt after seeing the film.

Me too.

I want all adults to see the film, if nothing else for the historical and artistic experiences, but I also know that the impact will be different for those professing other faiths, cultural or heriditary christians, and christian converts like me. I always like thoughtful dialogue.

All adults, really? Even those who have never seen an R rated movie should go see one with this kind of unrelenting violence about a savior they don't think they need?

Why not just go to a major art museum and look at Rennaissance paintings?

To posit a comparison, I do not think homebirth is for everyone. YKWIM?

Off topic, Jodi: what is a graphic novel (i noticed league of extraordinary gentlemen is based on one) matt and I deliberated and decided it probably did not mean a pornographic novel, but some sort of lengthy comic book...since you coincidentally mention it here.....

Fundie comic books , yeah.

http://www.chick.com/

pretty funny stuff!

[bunny's mama]

i am jewish.

haven't seen the movie and have no plans to see it. i'll tell you why:

1) i have recently read the reviews in both people mag & vanity fair mag. (as well as a few newspaper reviews) all the reviews say that the movie is strikingly and unrelentlessly, HORRIFICALLY VIOLENT, to the point of going overboard (they felt) and possibly alienating folks who might otherwise be interested in seeing it. i don't go see quentin tarantino movies because i abhor watching blood & gore, so i won't see this either.
2) although i have a real interest in history and the history of religion, and love to see historical movies, i have no desire to see a movie that (i have read in reviews) is "the history according to mel gibson" and is quite revisionist, i have heard. all the reviews i have read say that gibson "interpreted" the gospels to go along with his personal (and very very conservative catholic) ideaology.
3) as the mama of 2 small kids, i can only very rarely get to a movie theatre to see a movie. when i do, i want it to be a really enjoyable, escapist, usually comedic movie. this one obviously doesn't meet those requirements!
4) truthfully, i have no interest in a movie about jesus. to me, he was just a man, not a saviour or the son of god. sorry if this offends anyone.

BTW, i won't rent it on video either, as i really don't want to give any money to a film that furthers the myth that jews are "christ killers." there is plenty enough anti-semitism out there, the last thing this world needs is a film that portrays jews (unfairly and in a historically inaccurate way) as blood-thirsty killers of jesus.

[fromscatteredtribe]

I sincerely believe the film was not anti-semitic. I think that Pontious Pilate was portrayed a little too uninvolved and innocent, despite the historical accounts that suggest he was an intense brute. the romans who were administering his punishments were the ones who looked truly awful, but even they were portrayed as anomalies in that they continued to flog Jesus when it was obvious he was nearly dead. The Jewish high priests were portrayed as justified in a sense, as according to their laws, Jesus was guilty of blasphemy. While they requested he be punished by death, and while the crowd was enthusiastically supporting the guilty verdict, there were also other amazing portrayals of Jewish people. The Disciples of Jesus were willing to lay down their lives, Jesus himself was seen as gentle and loving, the other followers of Jesus (his brother, Mary Magdalen and others) were "good" characters too (albeit not fleshed out completely due to the focal point of the film). Also, Mary the mother of Jesus was beautifully portrayed as a compassionate, intelligent, sensitive, devout, and courageous woman. I walked away from the film feeling that the accusations of anti-semitism were unjustified and that those who were encouraged to do anti-semitic acts by the film were already disturbed and hate-filled and they knew they would have an audience of emotionally vulnerable and shocked people to which they could subject their extreme opinions (not shared by most christians or those responsible for creating the film).

I do respect your reasons for not seeing the film, however, not that you need feel like you have to justify them to anyone.....

[Viola]

My husband is not a Christian, nor a member of any religion group. He wants to see it because of the languages, and also for the costumes and historical aspect of it. I'm not sure if the violent aspect will bother him or not. Interestingly enough, he hates all musicals except Jesus Christ Superstar, so perhaps he just wants to see how the events are portrayed.

[dado]

Originally posted by fromscatteredtribe
IThe Jewish high priests were portrayed as justified in a sense, as according to their laws, Jesus was guilty of blasphemy.

that's exactly part of the problem. nothing of the sayings attributed to Jesus in the c'ian books are blasphemous in Judaism.

[DaryLLL]

Well, as some or all of the gospels were written in Alexandria, Egypt by Greeks, about a mystical land they called Judaea, and the exotic "Oriental" Jews they imagined lived there, it figures it would be a little off, dado.

[fromscatteredtribe]

According to what I understand about Judaism, it is blasphemy to claim that one is the Messiah (that is if one is NOT the Messiah). There were many claims that Jesus made by quoting scriptures from the Hebrew Bible that were prophecies about the coming messiah. He was claiming to be the "Son of Man" which refers to messianic prophecies in the psalms. When he was asked if he was "the King of the Jews" he said that he was what they had accused him of claiming to be. The high priests are said to have called it blasphemy immediately, and the crowd was shocked at the bold statements. these were not the innocent preachings of a peace loving, gentle Rabbi; they were extreme statements. He also violated the Sabbath by teaching and healing.

"The people said 'you aren't even fifty years old, how can you say you have seen Abraham?' Jesus answered, 'The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born.'" John 8:57-58, New Living Translation

Some translations say that he said Before Abraham was born I AM, which was the name of God as revealed to Moses at the burning bush.

At any rate, I am saying that the way the biblical account of Jesus's death is written in the Greek Bible, the high priests called him a blasphemer and they demanded his death for that. This was not a vicious and senseless murder (that is, it had a RATIONAL basis), and interpreting as random or bloodlust is not biblically correct, nor endorsed by the film, in my opinion

[Tracy]

I walked away from the film feeling that the accusations of anti-semitism were unjustified and that those who were encouraged to do anti-semitic acts by the film were already disturbed and hate-filled and they knew they would have an audience of emotionally vulnerable and shocked people to which they could subject their extreme opinions (not shared by most christians or those responsible for creating the film).

Of course even more significant when these acts are by churchl leaders.

don't know what to say about this... but just this leader has a flock...so..well, one can do the math...


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/s...790928,00.html


DENVER (AP) - A pastor displayed the message ``Jews Killed The Lord Jesus'' in front of his church on a busy Denver thoroughfare Wednesday, prompting outrage from Jews and Christians alike.

The sign in front of Lovingway United Pentecostal Church upset one passer-by so much she bought a ladder that afternoon to remove the first word. Church members later took down the rest of the words.

[dado]

Originally posted by fromscatteredtribe
it is blasphemy to claim that one is the Messiah

i'm sorry, but that and the rest of the paragraph is simply incorrect. it most certainly was not blasphemy. never has been, never will be. there have been quite literally thousands of Jews proclaiming themselves Moshiach. nor is it a sin to save lives on Shabbat.

the high priests called him a blasphemer and they demanded his death for that

that's not quite correct, either. there is only one high priest, at that time his name was Caiaphus, and he worked for Pilate. what Yeshua said was blasphemy *to*Rome*, not to Jews, which would explain why Rome executed him. if he had committed a capital Jewish offense he could have been tried convicted and executed by the Jewish court. what is described in the c'ian books - assuming it is correct - is not a Jewish court, nor a Jewish trial, nor a Jewish conviction.

this has been discussed at length on this board, searching should turn up lots and lots of information.

[Annoia]

I'm thinking about seeing it, simply because I love movies set in times past. But first I need to do more research on the islamic perspective on 'graven images'. As far as I understand, islam frowns upon the representation of holy prophets. In the ancient islamic art (that I've seen, so only a small sample of what's out there) both jesus (pbh) and mohammad (pbh) were portrayed with their faces 'blotted out'. Kinda radient, and so full of light there you can't make out the facial details. So I'm not sure if it's appropriate to see a movie with a full portrayal of Jesus (pbh). I think the reasoning behind this is the following idea: you couldn't possible draw (or play) a prophet and represent the prophets full glory - so it's disrespectfull to even try. But, like I said, I'm still researching the topic. Haven't come to any conclusions, yet!

Cheers!

[fromscatteredtribe]

So, if calling oneself the Messiah is not blasphemous, is it not blasphemy to refer to one's own immortality and then call oneself by the name revealed to Moses at the burning bush?

I am not sure what you mean that my whole paragraph is incorrect. The accounts and claims are coming directly from the Greek Bible and the refernces from the Hebrew Bible.

From what the film portrays which seems supported by the gospels the Jewish high court did not administer the death penalty and therefore appealed to Pilate to administer it. Like I said before, I think Pilate was treated too innocently in the film, trying to just wash his hands of the trial but knowing that there were so many people who felt so passionately that Jesus needed to be held accountable for his claims.

I have spent a lot of time studying in a top notch university with Jewish professors moments in Hebrew history and have read these scriptures many times. There are a lot of conflicting opinions here. Of course, this is my interpretation, but I do not stand alone.

Perhaps I should bow out of the discussion as I am now a Christian anyway.

[Piglet68]

I'm a non-Christian and there is no way I'm going to see this film. For the following reasons:

1) being raised Catholic I've seen enough movies and plays about the "passion". I don't need to see another just because it's the "hip thing to do" right now.

2) I simply cannot handle violence of the nature portrayed in this film. It would be deeply deeply disturbing and traumatic to me.

One thing that just learning about this movie has done for me, however, is cause me to question and re-examine the level of violence that is considered integral to my own Catholic-upbringing. Having a statue of a man nailed to a cross hanging ubiquitously in school rooms, churches, and homes might just tend to dull one to the reality of the crucifixion to the point where Mel has to zap people into being sensitized again. What was once so common I never thought to even look twice at it, is now something I find puzzling: the violent and sometimes graphic (coloured with red blood) crucifixes that are displayed with such commonality all over the place among those in the Catholic faith.

3) I refuse to contribute to the profits of this film since I find Mel Gibson and his "beliefs" to border on the abhorrent (to me personally, that is). Consider it a boycott of conviction.


Also, one comment about whether or not the movie is anti-semitic. I appreciate what you are saying, fromscatteredtribe, but I really feel that only those who have actually been on the receiving end of anti-semitism are truly qualified to make claims as to what does or does not constitute anti-semitism.