6yo mouthing off to dad-- and he allows it

[USAmma]

I have a 6yo who is starting to really act horrible when dealing with my dh. I started nursing school a few months ago, and dh has been taking over a lot of the "mom" things, like getting the kids ready in the morning, driving them to school, and the dinner/bedtime routine. He also helps my kids with most of their school work.

My 6yo has been increasingly disrespectful to him. I'm sure she's trying to test the boundaries. My dh has always thought I was too hard on the kids by giving consequences if they don't listen to my warnings about behavior and disrespect. However they both are fairly obedient to me (I hate that word-- they are not robots but they do respect my feelings and do what they need to do-- chores, homework, etc).

My 9yo still respects dh for the most part, although she does protest loudly with him, she at least gets the job done. My 6yo starts off nasty in the morning with yelling, name-calling of her dad, refusing to cooperate in getting dressed and ready for school. At every task she resists strongly and rudely. My dh ends up dressing her, brushing her teeth for her, and spoon-feeding her breakfast all while she is shouting abusive things at him and even kicking and hitting him in the process. He just takes it. Then once in awhile he snaps and yells at her and spends the rest of the day beating himself up about yelling at his child.

He is of the idealistic parenting philosophy that if you treat a child with respect and love, they will return it. It's not working for him, or my 6yo. My philosophy is to teach them respect, treat them with respect and unconditional love, but if they don't heed the warnings to cool off and stop abusing me verbally, or abusing their things, there will be consequences. One time with my older child, she was acting badly before school when I tried to help her, and so I told her she could go to school in her PJ's. I packed her clothes in a bag and she changed in the car on the way to school and never did it again! When my 6yo starts to abuse me verbally with name-calling, or threatening to break my stuff, I first warn her, and also ask if she needs a hug and tell her I'll always love her. If that doens't work I remove her to a safe place (usually her bed) and offer to sit with her but if she doesn't want me there I leave and tell her to let me know when she's ready to finish doing xyz that we were trying to do. If all else fails she loses privileges such as watching a movie at dinner time. I remind her that those things are extras that are rewards for getting our tasks finished and remembering to use our manners.

I know my way is not perfect, but it seems to be allowing me to raise children who are respectful and get the job done. I am very close to both of them, and I feel that getting past the behavior problems has allowed that closeness to happen. The kids are semi-close to dh. They just seem to use him and take advantage of him, and take him for granted. When I try to talk to dh about it, he doesn't want to discuss it. And yet I cannot allow my children to treat anyone with disrespect, not a stranger, and certainly not their own father.

What to do?

[Bug-a-Boo's Mama]

I completely agree with you. By letting the child talk/treat you a certain way it will become a habit that is hard to break. DS knows that he can't boss me around, tell me what to do. Dh on the other hand usually lets DS boss him around, tell him what to do how to play with something, etc. DH doesn't like it, but lets it go on and then explodes. I have stopped trying to intervene as then DH will contradict me and say it is fine. But then grumbles in the next breath. Whatever.

What your DH really needs to do is lay down the law. Tighten the reins until things get back in control and then gradually loosen them up again, but never go back to the way things are now. But it sounds like your DH doesn't want to do that, he doesn't want to be the bad guy. Somehow you need to make him understand that it will only get worse if he lets your 6yo continue talking to/treating him like this.

[LuckyMommaToo]

Just commiseration from me. DH is the same way -- take it, take it, take it, SNAP (by yelling). Except I still do the majority of the childcare. Does your DH want to change the dynamic? If he doesn't, you're probably stuck. If he does, maybe you and he should come up with a game plan, then he can have a meeting with your DDs explaining the new rules.

good luck,
-e

[chfriend]

Originally Posted by USAmma

He is of the idealistic parenting philosophy that if you treat a child with respect and love, they will return it. It's not working for him, or my 6yo.What to do?

I think 6 is a little young to judge whether his way is working. It sounds like it's not bugging him. He's entitled to his own way of parenting his kids as long as it not abusive. 6 is often an age of expansion and growth.

It's hard giving up control when we aren't the only one doing the parenting. I think you should enjoy your time in nursing school and let him do what works best for him.

[USAmma]

Originally Posted by chfriend

I think 6 is a little young to judge whether his way is working. It sounds like it's not bugging him. He's entitled to his own way of parenting his kids as long as it not abusive. 6 is often an age of expansion and growth.

It's hard giving up control when we aren't the only one doing the parenting. I think you should enjoy your time in nursing school and let him do what works best for him.

It does hurt him deeply that she's treating him this way. He remains calm most of the time but then will snap and yell "you don't treat your father like that! I love you, and you are not showing me respect!" It pains me to see him being hurt by his own child whom heloves so much. I have said to both of the girls on occasion, "I don't want anyone to treat my husband like that. He is my husband and I love him and he deserves to be treated politely. I would not allow anyone to talk to you like that, and I don't want anyone talking to him like that, either."

Secondly, it's hard for me to see my children treating anyone in that manner. I don't raise them to think that's okay in any way, shape, or form. I don't want her to grow up into a pre-teen and continue to treat him like that, KWIM? It will be a lot harder to correct her thinking the older she gets.

So on one hand I want to stand back and let him find his own way with them, and I try very hard to do that. I will often sit in my room and study and listen to the power struggles and just let him work it out and make mistakes the way I did when I was first learning to parent my kids. If it's little things then I just let them work it out and I try not to interfere with his parenting. But if I hear her calling him stupid daddy, I hate you, I'm going to tear up my homework, I'm going to break this, I feel like kicking you, that's when I just cannot tolerate it. He does nothing to counteract that behavior. He does not tell her "that's not nice to say" much less give a consequence. He just seems to accept it and he'll say something like "let's take a bite now, I'll feed you" or "put your foot in this shoe" and she'll be kicking him and he'll be calmly holding the foot and putting her shoe on. And then she'll kick him in the face and he'll at that point explode and yell at her, she cries that daddy yelled at her, and he'll start to apologize to her for losing his temper!

So at that point I want to go out there and say to my child, "You do NOT treat anyone that way. We do not talk to people like that in our family! If you want someone to help you with your shoes you will need to ask politely, or you can just go without shoes to school." She responds to me quite well with that. But with dh, he will just pick up the shoes and put them on her again after the explosion is over.

I am torn between allowing him to parent in his own way, and allowing my child to treat someone with such disrespect. You are right-- it's hard for me to give up control, but I've been working on it and that's why I try to leave the room when he's getting into some parenting conflict with the kids. And it IS kinda neat to see him realize how hard it is to parent kids, even things like getting them out the door on time when they are cooperating! And keeping track of homework and all that. He's actually doing a terrific job with most of it, but it's just this issue of disrespect that bothers me deeply.

[sunnmama]

Wow, I can understand how frustrating this must be for you to watch! That would be super difficult for me, too.

Maybe an angle to try with dh--
I had an epiphany at some point as a parent. It isn't just about us teaching our children how to behave. It is also about us teaching our children how to handle poor behavior from others. It takes skills to enforce boundaries and insist that people treat you with respect. When we enforce those boundaries and insist that our dc treat us with respect, we are modeling very valuable skills for our dc. You girls will need those skills as they slowly move out into the great big world, kwim?

Right now your dh is modeling "take it take it take it and EXPLODE!". Lot of people go through life with that model, but it is far from ideal. How would he want his daughter to respond if someone were calling her names or yelling at her? Would he want her to patiently take it until she explodes? Or would he want her to confidently enforce a boundary of appropriate behavior? If it is the latter (and I'm guessing it is), then he needs to model the same. IMO, it is the most respectful thing I can do for my precious dc

Originally Posted by USAmma

" I would not allow anyone to talk to you like that, and I don't want anyone talking to him like that, either.".

FWIW, I think this is a very powerful line. I've used it with my dc often, and I can see how it impacts her. I love that it incorporates connection and correction; the child's importance to you is integral to the message.

[USAmma]

It isn't just about us teaching our children how to behave. It is also about us teaching our children how to handle poor behavior from others. It takes skills to enforce boundaries and insist that people treat you with respect. When we enforce those boundaries and insist that our dc treat us with respect, we are modeling very valuable skills for our dc. You girls will need those skills as they slowly move out into the great big world, kwim?

That's it! Thank you so much! That is the angle i was looking for but didn't know how to define it. I will def. talk to my dh and my kids about this. My dh does have some boundary violation issues from childhood, and he's a very gentle person who often finds it hard to say no when people ask him to do things. So this is something he can work on, but I will focus on how we need to teach our kids by modeling how we define our own boundaries. I know he would not want anyone to boss them around. Brilliant!

[One_Girl]

I'm not married so I don't know how I would react if my husband thought I was to strict, but I parent in the same way your dh seems to except for allowing the violence and name-calling. It sounds like your dd is testing him as she transitions into being in his care more and more. Maybe he has found that being calm, ignoring the words said in anger, and not giving in to the tantrums helps him not react in a violent and angry way. I find that if I can stay calm while my dd is out of control I can help her calm down faster and get ready. I am scared of what I would do if I didn't stay calm. I used to have a horrible anger management problem and I am scared to react in a way that isn't calm. Is it possible that your husband is scared of what he would do and is parenting in a way that is very opposite to the way he was parented because of that. I talk with my dd about how angry she was when she is a lot calmer and what she can do when she is that angry in the future, but in the moment I stay calm and help her do what I have asked her to do once the tantrum is over.

I also think you should call your dd on the violence when you see it. My dd has thrown things at me a few times and it really helps when a family member tells her that she can't treat loved ones like that.

[lnitti]

Originally Posted by USAmma

I have said to both of the girls on occasion, "I don't want anyone to treat my husband like that. He is my husband and I love him and he deserves to be treated politely. I would not allow anyone to talk to you like that, and I don't want anyone talking to him like that, either."

Saying this would have no impact for my almost 6 year old. She just wouldn't care. It would probably infuriate her more escalate the behavior.

Originally Posted by USAmma

Secondly, it's hard for me to see my children treating anyone in that manner. I don't raise them to think that's okay in any way, shape, or form. I don't want her to grow up into a pre-teen and continue to treat him like that, KWIM? It will be a lot harder to correct her thinking the older she gets.

I am very concerned about this with my almost 6 year old. Also the concern that dd2 sees the behavior and has started copying some. Not all though as I do think she sees that it isn't good behavior. But then again, she is still a mostly sweet 2 year old.

Originally Posted by USAmma

So on one hand I want to stand back and let him find his own way with them, and I try very hard to do that. I will often sit in my room and study and listen to the power struggles and just let him work it out and make mistakes the way I did when I was first learning to parent my kids. If it's little things then I just let them work it out and I try not to interfere with his parenting. But if I hear her calling him stupid daddy, I hate you, I'm going to tear up my homework, I'm going to break this, I feel like kicking you, that's when I just cannot tolerate it. He does nothing to counteract that behavior. He does not tell her "that's not nice to say" much less give a consequence. He just seems to accept it and he'll say something like "let's take a bite now, I'll feed you" or "put your foot in this shoe" and she'll be kicking him and he'll be calmly holding the foot and putting her shoe on. And then she'll kick him in the face and he'll at that point explode and yell at her, she cries that daddy yelled at her, and he'll start to apologize to her for losing his temper!

Not saying what he is doing is right as it probably isn't helpful in the long run. But what DO you do with a child behaving this way? If my dd won't feed herself, she doesn't eat. If she doesn't put her coat and shoes on, I literally put her outside in her sock feet (even if the porch as snow on it). She quickly changes her mind. I have carried her to the bus with her kicking and screaming. But what do you do with the disrespectful things said, the yelling, hitting, kicking, throwing things, etc? saying anything at all is not helpful. I am just wondering, you say he is not doing anything to counteract the behavior. What type of counteraction are you expecting? What type of counteractive measures do you take? I personally am looking for good ideas myself. I can't seem to find anything that has helped us with this type of behavior. Maybe also, your dh just doesn't know what to do?

I just wanted to clarify that it is mostly me that she disrespects.

[USAmma]

Originally Posted by lnitti

Not saying what he is doing is right as it probably isn't helpful in the long run. But what DO you do with a child behaving this way? If my dd won't feed herself, she doesn't eat. If she doesn't put her coat and shoes on, I literally put her outside in her sock feet (even if the porch as snow on it). She quickly changes her mind. I have carried her to the bus with her kicking and screaming. But what do you do with the disrespectful things said, the yelling, hitting, kicking, throwing things, etc? saying anything at all is not helpful. I am just wondering, you say he is not doing anything to counteract the behavior. What type of counteraction are you expecting? What type of counteractive measures do you take? I personally am looking for good ideas myself. I can't seem to find anything that has helped us with this type of behavior. Maybe also, your dh just doesn't know what to do?

I just wanted to clarify that it is mostly me that she disrespects.

It sounds like you are doing well! My oldest dd was the most tempermental child ever at age 2-3 and at age 9 she's a wonderful, thoughtful human being who is very independent but still needs her mommy at times. I am so relieved to see her turn out this way, as I was pretty worried when she was younger! I basically just drew a line and set boundaries, and it was ugly for awhile until she realized I was serious, and then we were able to enjoy our relationship.

With my 6yo, the food is a big issue because she has special needs in that area. Long story short, she ended up with a feeding tube at 3 mos old due to some GI issues, and is weaning from it right now. She's doing super, but takes forever to eat. Sometimes it's just because she's having an off day, and sometimes it's because she's doing power play things. I can usually tell the difference but dh can't, and dd takes full advantage of that. My dd does not feel normal hunger cues so that one is hard to manage. Usually I ask her to eat half of her meal and then she can turn on the TV for the other half, or if she wants to take a bath (she loves baths) she has to eat half first. That works out really well. But she is fully capable of feeding herself and does *not* need to be spoon fed, and dh will do that because she cries and manipulates him to do it. We must make sure she gets her daily calories or else we will have to go back to using the tube, so that is one battle we must not give in to with her.

However . .. there are the other battles-- getting dressed, chores, bedtime, and basically anything she chooses to turn into a battle at that time. She will also do something "naughty" to get attention and see how dh will react, such as throwing a cushion off the couch and not putting it back when asked, or tossing crayons and not picking them up. She could care less if we take the crayons away-- and what can you as a natural consequence for a sofa cushion? Not much.

So yeah, it's hard and I can see why dh, being as gentle as he is, and as tired as he is after working all day, does not want to set boundaries. But to see my child treating my husband this way is painful.

[USAmma]

Originally Posted by One_Girl

I am scared of what I would do if I didn't stay calm. I used to have a horrible anger management problem and I am scared to react in a way that isn't calm. Is it possible that your husband is scared of what he would do and is parenting in a way that is very opposite to the way he was parented because of that.

I agree totally with this and it's a good point to remember! The times he has lost it, things are beyond what I would do in my angriest moments, and I know that it disturbs him a lot to reflect on his behavior. I mean, he has never come close to abusing them, but he does value control (he has some OCD with things-- like not wanting some of his things touched, and liking things just so), so I can see how scary this is for him to be pushed out of his comfort zone. There have only been a few times when he would really scream and then he would throw something benign and walk out of the house and stay out for a couple of hours because he was so upset about losing control of his anger.

Before I started taking antidepressants I too had a big anger problem. I'm a lot better now, but yeah, there were times when I had to put myself in time out because I knew I was about to blow a gasket.

so yeah, you bring up a good point. I'm so glad I posted about this! I am seeing different perspecitives here that I had not thought of in relation to this situation.

[Tuesday]

My 6.5 DS behaves similarly to OP's child. Both DH and I have issues setting boundaries and basically knowing what to do (we both have boundary issues from our pasts and then are confused by consulations and advice from DS's counsellors etc.).

I was wondering if you (whoever reads this thread) could give concrete specific examples of setting boundaries with a 6 year old?

My mouthy son has been told - we don't speak that way in this house etc. and given time-outs, logical consequences, punishments etc. - nothing works.

I wonder how much is also an age thing?

[4evermom]

On the plus side, it sounds like your dh is really awesome at being able to show unconditional love. They may take him for granted now but likely will really appreciate him when they are more mature.

[SunshineJ]

Originally Posted by chfriend

I think 6 is a little young to judge whether his way is working. It sounds like it's not bugging him. He's entitled to his own way of parenting his kids as long as it not abusive. 6 is often an age of expansion and growth.

It's hard giving up control when we aren't the only one doing the parenting. I think you should enjoy your time in nursing school and let him do what works best for him.

I disagree with this. By not addressing her behaviour your DH is telling her that it's ok to call people names, to throw things, and for her to be verbally abusive to someone she cares about. Not a good lesson imo.

You say this behaviour bothers your DH. I would sit down with him and gently express my concerns over the developing pattern and then work with him to make a list of what he is willing to put up with as normal 6 yr old behaviour and what he isn't willing to accept. Help him figure out a way to address it with him taking the lead on it. Write it down so there's a reference until he's used to it. Then put your 6 yr old on notice that these behaviours will quickly become a thing of the past and step back. Good luck - but it's far better to nip this now than let it continue and then have her turn into a teenager acting like this!