Friends

[japonica]

Hi there,

A really good friend of mine just had her first son two weeks ago. During the pregnancy, she asked around for information about circ and as many of us in our circle of friends have intact sons, we gave her as much information as possible as about the benefits of remaining intact and the issues related to circ. We talked about this on and off for a month or so.

I just found out today that she and her husband had him circed a week ago. She mentioned that the wound has been tough to heal and a mess.

Now, I know its their decision. And normally, the choices parents make with regards to their own families don't bother me. But this has thrown me for a loop...it's one thing when someone didn't have all the info and didn't realize the larger implications of the procedure and did it, but they did all that reading and chose to anyway. And they live somewhere where circing is definitely on the wane (Canada).

We'll still be friends obviously. She means so much to me and always will...she's one of the kindest people I've ever known. But it's just a shock right now. I thought she'd be the last one to consent to this. I feel for her little guy. Has anyone else had friends who ultimately made the decision to circ after you talked about so many reasons why it's best not to?

[QueenOfTheMeadow]

It's really hard to have someone you love, do something so painful and unnecesary to their child. Especially when you know they have the information out there that shows how unnecesary circ is a0nd all the awful complications that it can cause (you know, besides the complication of not having a foreskin that it's supposed to cause.)
I guess you have to put it into the perspective that a few months of discussing it with your friend, may not have been enough to change the hold that all the false information and incorrect notions out there surrounding circ. It could also be that she didn't share the information with her partner or he just didn't want to hear it and she left it up to him, "since he has a penis." I try to remember to direct my anger towards the society that has ingrained this sort of thing so deeply within people that they can't see the truth, instead of the individuals that fall prey to it. sigh.

Can you tell I've had to think this through a lot? I'm just glad my friend had a little girl and I didn't have to confront the problem directly. But I'm sure that I will at some point.

[japonica]

I try to remember to direct my anger towards the society that has ingrained this sort of thing so deeply within people that they can't see the truth, instead of the individuals that fall prey to it. sigh.

Thank you for that. That helps to re-frame it...I'm disappointed in the way that someone I admire, respect, and love so much made such a decision, but I won't let it affect our friendship and yes, looking at the wider picture helps. Why as a society do "we" still condone this and allow this? And why our sons? If FGM is so abhorrent to most of us, why should altering our sons be different?

And yes, I know husbands often play a huge role in this. In my own household, my husband mentioned circ was "tradition" in his family. Well, my family "tradition" was to keep sons intact, and I put my foot down. I understand my friend's husband booked the circ appointment. All we can do I guess, as a community and society, is keep the discussion going and hopefully we'll see some changes in attitudes down the road.

[outlier]

Yes, and I'm afraid it's permanently damaged my relationship with my sister. We used be very close. When I first heard she was pregnant, I spent a lot of time and energy putting together what I found to be the most informative yet non-preachy brochures, short books, etc. on the subject and sent them to her, fully believing that she'd see this information and be relieved that someone opened her eyes about this. She lives in a high-circ area and I was so afraid she'd blindly go along with her doctors' recommendations without giving it a second thought. I was even imagining her getting all this info and calling me up to thank me for sending it, and that of course they'd be leaving him intact because how could they possibly choose otherwise with all this knowledge?

Well, a few weeks later during a phone call, I gently asked her if she'd gotten the info. What followed was a very short and tense conversation about how this was none of my business, they were going to do it anyway, and she hoped I would "respect her decision." I was STUNNED. Suddenly I felt like I didn't know her anymore. The kicker is she's a nurse and has seen this surgery done with her own eyes! She told me it almost made her faint, yet she was perfectly okay with signing my brand new nephew up for it. Now, months later, I still feel that there's a fundamental disconnect between us. We barely talk anymore, and when we do it's all superficial stuff. I simply don't feel the same way about her, and I'm not sure what to do about it, if anything.

I, too, am angry more at society and particularly the doctors that continue to perpetuate this horrible surgery on innocent little boys. There's no way she would be brainwashed like this if we had been raised in Europe, or Mexico, or any of the other many, many places on this planet where it's automatically assumed by everyone that baby boys will go home with all of their genitals.

[KaylaBeanie]

I recently had a sort of realization. Two people can look at both sides of an issue, and come to radically different conclusions. While most people circ blindly, there ARE people out there like your friend who have actually, legitimately seen both sides and still choose to circ. I certainly don't get it, it makes me sad, but sometimes you just have to suck it up and move forward. I'd be disappointed and upset if one of my close friends circ'd, but I wouldn't end a friendship over it.

[Greg B]

Two people can come to radically different decisions based on the same information due to their differences in values and risk tolerance. The information is the same, but how they treat the pieces of infomation depends upon these two factors that are "outside the facts".

For instance, two people can hear that circumcsion affects the sexual feeing and function. But this fact has uncertainty about it. Some argue it is not a big deal, others that there are too many other factors involved to know for sure. Yet there is anecdotal evidence that makes a strong case for the value of foreskin.

One person considers this issue. They feel strongly in human rights, being natural, that we are born "perfect", that normal healthy body parts should not be removed as a general principle. They do not trust the medical establishment, and value individuality and free thinking. They find anecdotal evidence compelling, feeling that science, while helpful, misses important things. They feel that the risk of a bad outcome is small and that the circ option in any case will still be available for their son later in life. In this person's mind, RIC is clearly a bad decision.

The other person values highly being being in the center, being part of a larger group. They feel that medical science has enough knowledge to improve on what you are born with in some cases. They highly value science and the medical community's advice, and feel that you cannot trust anecdotal evidence because our human minds filter information, we are poor observers, and we are highly biased generally. The risk that their son will have medical problems, aquire HIV, or otherwise have problems is high in their minds and they wish to be risk averse. In this person's mind, RIC is the best choice.

You can only go so far with facts. Then you are in the realm of values and risk tolerance. This is not to say that you can not deal with values and risk tolerance and help them see that RIC is a bad choice, but you need do address their values and risk tolerance specifically. You need to bring that out into the open and explore it thoroughly. In my experience, this is not an easy task.

Regards

[outlier]

In my sister's case I think it was more the fear of the unknown that prevented her from seeing circ as anything but a good decision. She knows it causes pain, she knows it's more than a "little snip," and even though circing costs money that she didn't really have to spend, she would much rather do it because that's what she knows. By choosing not to find out how easy it is to care for intact boys or any of the benefits males may derive by keeping their foreskins, the intact state will forever remain unknown and scary to her.

It has to stop with the doctors, like in Britain, Australia, and Canada.

[Arduinna]

It's not their decision. It's their sons decision whether to have his genitals mutilated. As for the society comments, they live in Canada, circ is hardly the default there.

[blessedwithboys]

Originally Posted by japonica

Has anyone else had friends who ultimately made the decision to circ after you talked about so many reasons why it's best not to?

oh yes, and its terrible. an old acquaintance of mine knew i regret circing my 2 boys. she had 4 kids already (2 of them were boys, both circed) and then found out #5 was a boy also. she knew it was wrong and horrible but when ahead and did it anyway.

but something was different this time.

her ds1 was a preemie and wasnt circed until 3mo old. the day before he left nicu he had his undescended testicle repaired and while he was out they mutilated his penis, with full consent by his mom (dad was intact, but he was absent by that point...too bad...) by the time he woke up he was on enough pain meds that she didnt get the full impact of the screaming.

ds2 was with a different father, who also happened to be intact. he VEHEMENTLY opposed circ but lived out of town and missed the birth. she delivered at about 10 or 11 pm and asked for him to be mutilated 1st thing in the morning b4 his father got there to object. they brought her ds back to her sound asleep and he didnt wake up for HOURS. she kept saying how she was glad she made them use EMLA and an injected block bc he obviously wasnt in any pain. she wouldnt believe me when i suggested he was in shutdown, even yrs later when he used sleep as an escape from seperate anxiety upon starting school.

for ds3, she had no insurance and therefore no way to pay for the circ. it didnt happen until he was 1 mo old. it was at the peds office and she got to experience exactly how horrific it really is. after, she told me she had been on the fence this time around but her dh (babbydaddy #3) was circed and really wanted it done.

they are planning one more baby and while she is hoping for a girl to make it 3b and 3g, i am praying its a girl just in case she falls of the fence on the wrong side again.

[AnnaNova]

i had a similar situation with a friend whom i admired greatly... it didnt ruin our friendship, but i certainly see now how much i 'idealized' her...
she always seemed like a very not mainstream person with her own ideas on everything and her own way of doing things even if it didnt fall in the line with how the rest of us were edoing them, and i admired that... until she was pregnant. everything in her pregnancy, from the pregnancy itself to the birth that began with an unnecessary induction and ended in c-section, to formula feeding soon after birth (for no apparent reason), to putting baby to sleep in a separate room, to circ it was such a difference from the person i knew... it was such and eye opener... i tried to talk to her gently a few times, but got the vibe that she wasnt interested in my opinons and has already made up her mind, so i didnt even bother.
her baby seems happy and healthy, but it still saddens me a great deal. i understand that these are her choices and i have no right to have a say in them, but i wish she could see the world through my eyes and feel the difference

[Proxi]

Originally Posted by Arduinna

As for the society comments, they live in Canada, circ is hardly the default there.

It may not be common to get newborns circed here, but most people don't realize that. I am only 22, and whenever I mention I am against circing boys, my friends think I am insane. The usual arguments too: the boy will be teased or he will get horrible infections either now or when he is in a nursing home when he is old.

I think most people here only become "against" circ when they realize they have to pay for it. That is just a guess, but it seems to be the case around where I am.

[NSmomtobe]

Originally Posted by Proxi

It may not be common to get newborns circed here, but most people don't realize that. I am only 22, and whenever I mention I am against circing boys, my friends think I am insane. The usual arguments too: the boy will be teased or he will get horrible infections either now or when he is in a nursing home when he is old.

I think most people here only become "against" circ when they realize they have to pay for it. That is just a guess, but it seems to be the case around where I am.

I live in NS, which has the lowest circ rates in Canada, and I think you may be on to something. I didn't realize until about a year ago how low the rates were. When I was in high school, I was actually pro-circ, which I am kind of ashamed of now (but overall, there was no harm in it at the time, so I don't lose sleep over it). As I learned more about it, I became anti-circ, which lead to an argument between me and DH (who unfortunately is circed, although I was happy about this when we met).

I was ready to fight tooth and nail not to circ our son, when I realized one day what a non-issue it is in Nova Scotia. The latest survey on maternal experiences during pregnancy and birth in Canada put the infant circumcision rate in NS at around 8%. I realized then (correctly) that the issue would not come up in the hospital and I knew that DH would not feel the need to seek it out and pay for it. The information we received on diaper care said only not to retract the foreskin during diaper changes. That's it. Foreskin assumed. I didn't have to argue with DH because the issue just never came up. There was a spot on the baby's health chart labeled "first void after circumcision" so that was a little sad to see, but it was just left blank.

Honestly though, in my life, I have only seen one baby with a circumcised penis, and it just looked so sore and so wrong. In fact, I think that was what set me on the anti-circ path. Until then, every adult penis I saw was circed and every child's penis was not, and I just figured that's how they looked at different stages of development and that circumcision was not really a big deal. Seeing it on such a young child (1-year-old) really opened my eyes.

Wow, sorry to hijack the thread with my rant.