Soooo . . . when exactly do I get a secure, confident kid? - Page 2

[GuildJenn]

You need a break, and perhaps to give yourself a break.

AP does not give you one kind of a child over another. Hopefully you believe in it because it's right. But there are no guarantees.

That said, the stage you're in right now is just plain hard. It gets much easier in some ways in a few months, although then you're nearing 2.5 which is not an easy road. You've heard of the "disequilibrium" states? Basically the X.0-x.5 phase is more a stage where kids are taking things in and then X.5-X+1 is the period where they are reaching and testing. So as an overreaching arc, the 18 month - 2 stage is really hard.

[ShyDaisi]

Micah was always a pretty clingy child. The first year was the absolute toughest, and from there it has gradually gotten better. Only in the last couple of months or so has it gotten to the point where he will let me out of his sight without either crying the entire time I am out of the room or following me everywhere I go. He will even play on his own for short periods of time - as recently as 2 months ago, this NEVER would have happened. I feel I gave him the comfort he needed while he needed it, and, now, he is starting to feel comfortable enough to not need me to be RIGHT THERE at every single moment. He still will only alow for a few minutes apart at the moment, but it is slowly getting better. One day I will wonder why I can't get him to stay!

[Apple Girl]

I could have written your post a year and a half ago. He's coming out of it now, at 3.5. He's my little Mr. Independence now. Secure, confident... but he still loves to snuggle. Just the way I like it.

[RoseDuperre]

Y'all rule.

Thank you all so, so much. I especially appreciate each of you who wrote about similar clingy stages with their kids (that DID come to an end!) as well as those who point out that the goal is really a secure, confident adult. I do get that, really, but it's helpful to keep it in mind. And I know AP is not responsible, it can just be hard during times when family is around, raising their eyebrows and making insinuations about the efffects of cosleeping whenever she has a meltdown.

Now on to multi-quote practically every person here:

Originally Posted by weliveintheforest

I was wondering though, as I was reading, how much sleep she gets? My kids get super clingy and demand tv when they haven't had enough. I also have a hard time when they don't go to bed early enough for me to have some 'me' time.

A fair question! I do think she is getting enough, basically. She normally goes down around 11 and gets up between 8 and 9 every day, and still takes a (average of ) two hour nap every day. I would like her to sleep earlier, but nothing has budged her so far. I think she's just a night owl like me.

Originally Posted by InMediasRes

DS has had severe separation anxiety issues since birth, but that time period from 21mo-24ish mo was the WORST! It got better and better until about 2.5yo and then it seemed like he was handling me leaving just fine. He still gets nervous if he loses sight of me in a store or if I leave without his necessary amount of warning, but he isn't stuck to me like glue quite so much anymore.

That is so helpful to know! Very reassuring.

Originally Posted by GoestoShow

As far as the daycare, one hour isn't enough time to get used to anything. Neither is 5 minutes. If you're going to put her in daycare or some type of childcare system, it needs to be a regular routine and for half - full days. There's an entire thread from earlier posted by someone whose daughter was going to daycare a little bit and hated it every time. Most people, including myself, just thought that the daycare needed to be upped by another day so it became an expected part of her life.

I think on any type of daycare issue, it's going to have to be a little more aggressive than leaving her somewhere for five minutes, that is, if she's going to get used to it and if you need her to go to daycare.

These are good points, though difficult ones, I have to admit. The daycare director even said that I really needed to start leaving her for 2 hours, not one, as she needed time to adjust and get comfortable. I have to give this a lot more thought, as I may be leaving her in someone's home instead, but we just cannot afford to do it every day (nor do I want to), so, hmm. Must think more on this.

Originally Posted by jenfl

Right around 2 was particularly rough for us, too. Lots of clinginess to me, rejecting of my DH, and refusal to let us out of her sight.

But slowly things changed -- by about 2.5, she was happily playing independently for an hour or so at a time. It's all cyclical, though -- now, at nearly 3, she's back to needing us around more. But it's not NEARLY as bad as 2 was!

Again, so so so reassuring.

Originally Posted by LuxPerpetua

Also, perhaps you could get some Elmo books so when she asks for Elmo you could pull out a book and an Elmo stuffed toy or something instead. I loved the Max and Ruby DVDs because they were very slow paced, interesting, and short (each episode is only 7 mins), so if you need to keep doing DVDs you might want to consider something like this. You can also get the Max and Ruby books by Rosemary Wells that are well-done and upon which the show was based (not the other way around), which will be good for transitioning away from the TV (this is what we did).

Yes, we though that too, and have some Elmo books. We're also going to be inundated with Elmo stuff for her birthday, so I hope to be doing this more and more.

Thanks for the Max and Ruby recommends! I will definitely remember that.

Originally Posted by LuxPerpetua

Dd also never had an issue with being characer-obsessed, but I don't know if that's just because Elmo has this weird effect upon kids or if it was just her personality. Hang in there--the clinginess got a lot better at age 3.

There IS something about that little guy, I'm telling you! She recognizes a lot of the other ones, and seems to like Ernie a lot too, but Elmo is like CRACK to her, seriously.

Originally Posted by mtiger

I have to agree that the 5-10-15 minute thing with a caregiver (daycare or other) is counter-productive. It might make more sense to see if you can spend a few times there, with you staying, so she can get familiar with the routine, caregivers, and other kids. It will give her a certain comfort level for when you do leave her for a bit on her own. I would talk to the lead teacher to see what would work best from their experience. Your daughter is not the first to be in this spot, nor will she be the last.

OH , I should have mentioned in the OP that I DID do this. The first several times I visited each place (the Y and the daycare alike) I didn't even leave. We just hung out there for 30 minutes to an hour or so, playing with the toys and getting used to it. And then I would stay for 20 minutes and then leave, and so on. But as per upthread, I think I do need to leave her for longer, period.

I just get so worried that people are just going to ignore her and stick her in some contraption, crying.

Originally Posted by InMediasRes

Here's some info from Dr. Green on separation anxiety in the last half of the second year:

This was very heartening!

Originally Posted by claddaghmom

I just wanted to say....my mom did "AP" on all her kids and it was a toss up. Some kids were really outgoing, others were really wary and clingy. It's just an expression of their temperament and nothing to worry about. And IMO, for those kids who do have that added anxiety, I think AP is especially helpful to them, as opposed to either breaking their spirit/trust or freaking them out even more.

I wonder if some of what you describe (are we the same person? hehe only it's Barney the dino over here) is more due to being at home alone? DD won't even let me go to the bathroom alone! But if we go somewhere, anywhere, with other people, she drops the clingies instantly. For example, if we go to the park on a busy day, she just runs off and plays. And will scream when it's time to go. Maybe they are a bit scared of the quiet in the house...???

Very true on the first paragraph. And whoa, that is freaky. One thing I left out (because it was already so long) was that in public, she will take OFF! Like, I am genuinely curious to see exactly how far she would go without me (not that I would test this unless I had a trusted but unknown-to-her friend tailing DD closely the whole time). What IS that all about???

[RoseDuperre]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

It sounds to me like you need a break. A regularly scheduled break. Can her dad take her on an outing one morning a week? I suggest an outing because my kids are always happier to go somewhere and leave me behind than they are for me to leave.

As hard as it is, I'm also going to suggest some 'tough love' when it comes to the tantrums about you staying there to watch TV. Give her the choice of coming with you or watching - so you're not forcing her to be alone, but you are letting her know that you have other things to do.

Remember that your job is different from when she was an infant. Now your job is to teach her to manage her very strong emotions. At 22 months (I really like to be accurate about ages, because "2" is different from 22 months), she's got very few resources to deal with those emotions. That's OK. What you want to do is show her that her emotions are not too scary. They're not so scary that mom will drop everything to prevent her crying. Mom will be there when she needs comfort, but sometimes, a girl just has to get that tantrum out. (Yep, I've got a tantrumer too, and I was one as a child. Really, prevention only goes so far.)

Finally, I'd recommend:
Raising Your Spirited Child
The Active Alert Child

So much helpfulness here. MY GOD I definitely need a break. I have been getting short ones, mostly to work out, and when I need to see a client or get to an ICAN meeting once a month, that kind of thing. Occasionally I get to grocery shop alone, too. (Such a luxury! No, really!) But I also really need a regular time-out session too, not just care for when I have to get things done. Even if it's just kicking back at Border's or something. Thanks for that. (Can you call DP and explain this to him?)

Second, on the tough love, I know you are right. But I don't think she can quite understand this yet. She's developing language like crazy, but she doesn't do sentences yet, and I think the concept of this choice might be beyond her - or maybe she can get it and is just unhappy about it, but I honestly cannot tell. Once she IS capable of understanding this, I definitely think I will be doing this choice when I need to. I do like watching with her sometimes, since she IS learning some things, and it;s fun to point out her favorite characters together, and name objects and such. I think that's important! But not ALL the time.

I appreciate the talk-through on the emotions thing. It's totally right and makes sense to me. And I was most definitely a tantrummer too. A BAD ONE. I have had "Raising Your Spirited Child" recommended to me - I will definitely get it now!

Originally Posted by orangefoot

Also at this age they are learning all sorts of things about life by being with you and seeing what you do every minute of the day. it doesn't seem positive to you right now but her knowing where you are and that you re there for her is very reassuring to her at this stage.

Put your worries over her having ADD, being addicted to tv and never reading to one side. My boys were avid tv/video watchers who turned into avid readers and avid gamers. They aren't bad people - honest. There was a time when we watched Pingu or Tom and Jerry on a loop.

THANK YOU. This is so relieving to hear. I mean, I do want to reduce the amount eventually, hopefully by a LOT, but if this is a phase, I am fine with it. And it's good to know other kids turn out great, having once been obsessed.

I also liked the first part of what you said. I can totally see this from her perspective.

Originally Posted by meemee

yup i too agree. you need a break.

snot only to give you breathing room, but also have the time to introspect and see the whole picture.

first let me say your dd is bang on target. this is total normal behaviour. she is going thru her second phase of what is it called - stranger anxiety, separation anxiety.

you are asking for understanding when she is going thru possibly the worst time of her life. yes. she is trying to figure out how to control her emotions and express them 'properly'. she is trying to figure out what social norms are.

the only true medicine is - a break for yourself. one biggest wrong thing we have formed an idea of AP is taking such good care of our children that we forget ourselves. that is v. v. wrong. AP is taking care of both parent and child.

instead of CIOing your child, you have CIOed yourself.

and as your situation shows, that hasnt been successful either.

temperament plays a huge deal in how our children work out at what age.

my friend and i are both AP with 7 year olds.

her son is the geeky 7 year old who STILL wont part with mom (not room, but wont do for playdate without mom). there is my dd whom i called a leech baby. she has been super independent since she was 4 and yet even today she still needs me a great deal emotionally, which sometimes means she is ON me for a while.

you know i remember myself at 2 coming to the point of enough is enough. i used to joke at work that i came to work because it was a vacation. it is a hump that most of us parents reach. its a wakeup call to start taking care of ourselves.

so do whatever it takes to take care of yourself. snatch bits and pieces of time to yourself. leave dd with someone else and see what she does. does she scream and cry for 5 mins and then is ok? with my dd i remember she used to get really angry and work herself into a huge tantrum. that lasted for about 5 mins and then she would be fine.

i specifically took breaks when she was at her best. which was in the morning after bfast. if i tried in the evening forget it. there is no way she would put up with anyone but me.

however i have found - that the more i take care of her the faster she got out of her neediness phase. the more she wanted the more i gave and got the reassurance she needed. later i discovered she has anxiety so me being there was a huge benefit to her - which i didnt realise till much later.

there were two points of time in my dd's lfie that i was happy to give her away. and i seriously mean it.

Wow, this whole thing is a gold mine. Bless you. I would go through it and bold every point that resonated, but it's the entire post really. I love the insight on AP's reciprocity for parents, in a way. And if you have been here on certain days, you would know how accurate the CIO-on-myself thing really is.

The one part I bolded - wow are you ever singing my tune. That's so timely. Lately I have found myself envying WOHMs - and I really do know how stressful their lives can be, but I keep thinking "But they get to just be THEMSELVES for those periods of time! They get to just be HUMAN BEINGS!" Yeah, when you don't even feel like a person anymore, something has to change. I cherish the gift of being able to stay with her as long as I have (this was not the original plan, but that's another story), I really do, but I know now that I am not cut out to stay at home full-time for much longer. I really want to be working part-time. Wow, there, I said it. *breathe* I am taking steps towards this, but they;re teeny tiny ones. I need to start taking bigger steps.

Again, thank you for your insights.

Originally Posted by GuildJenn

You need a break, and perhaps to give yourself a break.

AP does not give you one kind of a child over another. Hopefully you believe in it because it's right. But there are no guarantees.

That said, the stage you're in right now is just plain hard. It gets much easier in some ways in a few months, although then you're nearing 2.5 which is not an easy road. You've heard of the "disequilibrium" states? Basically the X.0-x.5 phase is more a stage where kids are taking things in and then X.5-X+1 is the period where they are reaching and testing. So as an overreaching arc, the 18 month - 2 stage is really hard.

Yay for more calls for a break! Truly needed, thanks.

So true on the bold, I do see that. Like I said in my previous post, I sometimes doubt myself with eyebrow-raising relatives and even some more mainstream friends, but I do know it really is much more of an innate temperament thing - I do AP because I believe it is healthiest and fits us best. And as I mentioned, I was a tantrumming child myself, so it's not surprising.

That is so interesting about the disequilibruim! That sheds some light on the situation too. It WAS right around 18 or 19 months that she started being more, well, I hate to say difficult, but the late summer and early fall were going so smoothly there for a while, heh.



I am grateful to you all.

[Kelly1101]

Just another popping in to say that my mom did AP with all of us, and my sister was clinging on mom's legs until she was like 4 years old, while right from the start I just wanted to go sit in a corner by myself and play quietly with toys, haha. So much of it is temperament. And totally agree that with AP it's the long-term that matters-- despite our differences way back when, both my sister and I have a great relationship with our mom and are pretty secure adults

[Learning_Mum]

I haven't read the replies but I wanted to say that when things become overwhelming for me and I just NEED to not have someone around me, clinging to me, is when it is the worst. I think kids pick up on the vibe that you just want to get away from them and so hold on any way they can.

Maybe not very helpful but maybe something to think about? I think regular time out is important and I think that if you just regularly have Daddy take her out then she will adjust to that. Having THEM leave YOU is always heeaaaps easier than you leaving them! Going out and doing something fun with Daddy will also likely distract from the fact that you're not there.