Potty Learning and Rewards

[amberskyfire]

I have always heard that you should never give rewards for potty training but I was wondering if you would give rewards in this type of situation.

I have been dealing with potty issues with my 2-year-old for several months now. She wants to use the potty. We used to do EC but around 18 months old, she totally refused to use the potty anymore, so she went for a while not using it. Then, one day, she decided she wanted to start using the potty. She knows when she needs to go and can even hold it if she wants to (and usually does if she's doing something too interesting to stop and potty for). I took her every time she asked to go and she would poop or pee while I read her a book. This went on very well for a few weeks and I thought she would be totally out of diapers within a month or so.

Then she started asking me to use the potty but wouldn’t actually go anymore. She wouldn’t sit still on the potty. She would want to walk around the bathroom and play with the toilet paper or the plunger (yech!). She would want me to read a book to her, but refused to use the potty. I eventually realized that she didn’t need to use the potty at all when she did this. She just wanted me to read a book. I’m fine with reading her a book any time she likes, but she has always been extremely high-needs and now will ask to use the potty whenever I’m doing something that does NOT involve me reading her a book like washing dishes or mopping the floor. She’s basically using it to control me which is not good. I have a hard time telling her “no” when I think she is crying wolf, because she will start to panic and hold her crotch and do the pee dance, so I believe her every time. She’s quite convincing. Then, of course, every time she just wants to play in the bathroom and I put the diaper back on and she doesn’t need to go again until two or three hours later. She just wanted the attention.

I have tried explaining to her that I will read a book as soon as I am done doing whatever it is that I’m doing. I have tried getting her to help me do it, but no, she just wants me to read a book NOW NOW NOW. I have tried potty books and a potty video to get her psyched up to actually use the potty. I have tried giving her big kid underwear. No dice.

All of this has lead me to wonder if maybe I should start giving rewards. The reward wouldn’t be for learning to use the potty (she already knows how to do that) but I feel like if I offer a tiny reward each time she actually produces, then she will be less inclined to constantly cry wolf about needing to use the potty when she doesn’t need to go and will only ask if she actually needs to go.

I can’t tell when she’s telling the truth or not and I just can’t stop in the middle of what I’m doing every single time to go sit in the stuffy bathroom reading her a book while she plays. I feel like I’m teaching her that she can say whatever she wants to say in order to get her way.

What do you think?

[tankgirl73]

I think it sounds like this is not a pottying issue at all. She wants your attention, and she knows she gets it when she sits on the potty and you read to her. It's not "trying to control you", it's trying to get you to connect with her, which she needs.

Do you read books with her a lot outside of potty time? Do you make enough of an effort to spend time engaged with her during the day? Are there times when the thing that you're trying to finish can wait a little while, that it's less important than keeping a connection with your daughter?

My suspicion would be that when you deal with this side of the issue, the pottying thing will more or less resolve itself.

I know even the most attachment-oriented among us sometimes go through phases where we're just not available to our children the way we should be. It's hard sometimes! But I do think, given what you've described here, that you should stop thinking about this as a potty issue, but instead as a parent-child connection issue, or something like that. It's only manifesting as a potty issue because that's the one area where she knows she can get your attention. If she felt confident that she could get your attention in other ways as well, then she wouldn't feel the need to "cry wolf" about the potty.

Now, as for the pottying itself... it's not at all uncommon for EC'd kids to go through potty strikes in toddlerhood. While they're working on that last phase of taking control of the process themselves, it can go back and forth quite a bit. Patience (that this too shall pass) and creativity are generally the way to get through those strikes. For us, it was the stand-up pee that saved the strikes. When she was resistant, we'd let her stand up in the bathtub to pee. Worked EVERY TIME.

So, rather than forcing her to sit on the potty, as the ONLY option, offer other options. Sitting on the big toilet, peeing in the sink like when she was a baby, peeing outside (our other big savior -- peeing in the rocks!)... keeping it interesting keeps it fun for them, it engages their curiosity and sense of silliness heh... And really, anything OTHER than peeing in a diaper is a good thing, it doesn't HAVE to be potty-or-nothing.

If you haven't already tried it, I would stop reading to her on the potty... just letting them sit there until they eventually go doesn't reinforce the connection between 'needing to go' and going. If she doesn't pee pretty much right away, take her off. If she whines, go sit with her somewhere else and read to her, teach her that reading is a special thing you guys can do anywhere, it doesn't have to be on the potty. If she does the pee dance, take her again, maybe offer a standup pee option or something... but if she still doesn't go, take her off again. If she ends up peeing in her pants, don't get upset about it, change her pants, dry her off, she'll figure out that she has a chance to not do that when she goes to the potty.

Anyway, I certainly wouldn't bring out rewards in a situation like this. This is a situation that you've (however well-intentioned) brought upon yourself, by turning potty time into a special reading time and (apparently) not having enough connection time with her otherwise. Toddlers are needy, it can be draining and exhausting, but bribing them to leave you alone isn't the answer.

[Shami]

I am not into rewards, but for potty learning I did use it. We blew bubbles every time she put pee or poo in the potty. You could give a reward for every time she even sits on the potty. The bubbles were fun and didn't give her any added sugar.

I guess I was so intimidated by the whole potty learning thing that I pulled out every trick in the book to make it work. I do not regret using rewards and I still don't use them except for her pinching issue. These two things I think are worthy of rewards.

I think being so extreme and never using rewards isn't logical or reasonable. Life is full of rewards at school, work, play, etc. We as adults do things to get a reward. My take on rewards is to use them sparingly and when you, as her parent, feel it will help her grow and succeed.

One the whole control issue:

Mine got the potty learning within the first day. After a couple of months she figured out that it was a good way to get out of her car seat. She'd let me strap her totally in and then say pee pee mama. In the beginning I went along with her because I thought she just doesn't know her body's cues.
I always took her in the store before leaving for the next errand. She started refusing to go in the store when I took her, and then claiming she had to go after getting strapped into the car seat. So, I'd take her back in the store and she'd say no. Once I realized it was a game, I changed my tactics.

Now, I tell her pee pee in the grocery store or at home. If she chooses home, no amount of her yelling pee pee from the back seat will make me pull over. Man, I've done a lot of praying that she's just saying it and not actually peeing in her car seat. Usually she is dry. She has had a few accidents in her seat and it is a pain to wash the cover, but it is helping her learn to go before we leave the place. I don't make a big deal out of it and she 'helps' me clean her seat. I just try and warn her that mama will NOT stop to go pee pee any where. I used to stop all the time even if it was a ten minute drive. Then I learned that she was just trying to get out of her seat.

Are you using cloth or disposable dipes? I would let them 'run' out and let her see that when they are all gone then you wear big girl underwear. Get some cotton training pants and she probably will not like it when the pee pee runs down her leg. I think this is why dd got the concept so fast. She didn't like the mess.

[amberskyfire]

Originally Posted by tankgirl73

I think it sounds like this is not a pottying issue at all. She wants your attention, and she knows she gets it when she sits on the potty and you read to her. It's not "trying to control you", it's trying to get you to connect with her, which she needs.

Do you read books with her a lot outside of potty time? Do you make enough of an effort to spend time engaged with her during the day? Are there times when the thing that you're trying to finish can wait a little while, that it's less important than keeping a connection with your daughter?

She definitely gets TONS of attention. I'm a SAHM and she has always been extremely high needs, so I have to give her my undivided attention about 90% of the time. It's exhausting, but I do it anyway. The issue isn't that she isn't getting enough attention. She gets practically every second of my time. The issue is that in a moment when she ISN'T getting my full undivided attention (like when I'm mopping) THAT is when she asks to use the potty because she knows if she pretends she has to go, it's the only time when I have no choice but to believe her and take her to the potty. She knows it's the one thing that can stop whatever I'm doing.

[amberskyfire]

Originally Posted by Shami

I am not into rewards, but for potty learning I did use it. We blew bubbles every time she put pee or poo in the potty. You could give a reward for every time she even sits on the potty. The bubbles were fun and didn't give her any added sugar.

I think being so extreme and never using rewards isn't logical or reasonable. Life is full of rewards at school, work, play, etc. We as adults do things to get a reward. My take on rewards is to use them sparingly and when you, as her parent, feel it will help her grow and succeed.

One the whole control issue:

Mine got the potty learning within the first day. After a couple of months she figured out that it was a good way to get out of her car seat. She'd let me strap her totally in and then say pee pee mama. In the beginning I went along with her because I thought she just doesn't know her body's cues.
I always took her in the store before leaving for the next errand. She started refusing to go in the store when I took her, and then claiming she had to go after getting strapped into the car seat. So, I'd take her back in the store and she'd say no. Once I realized it was a game, I changed my tactics.

Now, I tell her pee pee in the grocery store or at home. If she chooses home, no amount of her yelling pee pee from the back seat will make me pull over. Man, I've done a lot of praying that she's just saying it and not actually peeing in her car seat. Usually she is dry. She has had a few accidents in her seat and it is a pain to wash the cover, but it is helping her learn to go before we leave the place. I don't make a big deal out of it and she 'helps' me clean her seat. I just try and warn her that mama will NOT stop to go pee pee any where. I used to stop all the time even if it was a ten minute drive. Then I learned that she was just trying to get out of her seat.

Are you using cloth or disposable dipes? I would let them 'run' out and let her see that when they are all gone then you wear big girl underwear. Get some cotton training pants and she probably will not like it when the pee pee runs down her leg. I think this is why dd got the concept so fast. She didn't like the mess.

Thanks for the advice! We are actually using cloth diapers. I tried the underwear thing, but it kind of backfired. She loves peeing in them. She thinks it's interesting. When she feels like she needs to go, she will squat in them and then look down and watch herself pee. If I don't catch her, she will stomp around in the puddle of pee. Lovely, right? She doesn't like having a wet diaper, but wet panties are apparently tons of fun.

You've given me some ideas, however. I'm going to try taking her to the potty and giving her one chance and after that, it's over. Like when it's bedtime and she pretends to have to go so that she can get out of bed and I have to read her another bedtime story on the potty. I'll give her the one chance to go before bedtime, but not after that maybe.

Also, I think I might stop reading her books while she is on the potty. She asked to go poop a few minutes ago and I took her, but I gave her the book and read my own and refused to read to her. She was a bit perplexed at first, but then went poop and was done and I agreed to read to her and nurse her afterward. Hopefully this will send the message that potty time is not playtime and that we can have lots of fun again AFTER she is done using the potty.

Gotta go! She's asking to paint with me!

[sapphire_chan]

My inclination would be to say something like "You need to go to the potty? Okay, let's go!" and then on the way ask "do you need the potty or do you want to read stories?" and let that open up a discussion that she can ask to read stories with you. (And actually go read stories on the couch or something.)

Then, after you have her asking to read stories when she wants that and pottying when she actually has to go, you'll have to start doing stuff like "Let's do cleaning for 20 minutes, I'll mop and do dishes, you can play with your toys, or help me, and then we'll read stories/do playdough/dance in the rain"

I'd also look into memorizing some stories and seeing if you can tell her stories while you work.

And how about getting a potty chair that you can grab, "oh you need to go potty? I have to work in the kitchen, so let's set you up right here where you can see me!"

[sapphire_chan]

Oh and how much actual fully focused on her attention does she get? I carry my dd nearly all day long, but I find that I don't actually focus totally on her all that often. Pretty much when she uses the potty and the rare time she's willing to sit down with a toy, and when she starts whining for stuff in the pantry and cupboards.

That latter one is my big issue right now, and thanks to this thread, I'm going to try getting her involved in playing a game with me earlier in the day and hopefully avoid the cupboard wars.

[tankgirl73]

The issue isn't that she isn't getting enough attention. She gets practically every second of my time. The issue is that in a moment when she ISN'T getting my full undivided attention (like when I'm mopping) THAT is when she asks to use the potty because she knows if she pretends she has to go, it's the only time when I have no choice but to believe her and take her to the potty. She knows it's the one thing that can stop whatever I'm doing.

Ahhh, gotcha. Clever little thing, then, isn't she?

Could you wear her in a sling when you're doing something like the dishes? Would she go for something like that? I still wear my 3yo occasionally when she's cranky. She gets the cuddling she needs, I get my housework done. Normally I'd also suggest that you have her help with your work, usually kids this age LOVE that, but you say you've tried that. Have you looked into Montessori Practical Life activities? It might be a way to get her into the groove of this sort of activity so that she'd be more inclined to do them with you (or her own versions alongside you, as the case may be).

Otherwise, it sounds like you're on a good track now, not reading on the potty or letting her stay there too long... and I love sapphire_chan's suggestion (I usually do lol) asking on the way whether she wants the potty or the stories. And don't forget about the stand-up pee option!

[newmum35]

Originally Posted by amberskyfire

I have always heard that you should never give rewards for potty training but I was wondering if you would give rewards in this type of situation.

Yikes. I've never heard this. Care to elaborate a little more? Why shouldn't rewards be used?

My husband came up with the idea of our DS getting to open a present for a poo, and he also gets a sticker every time he pees. So we're very much into rewards and now I'm curious to find out just how this is harmful if anyone can direct me to a page or explain more about it.

[amberskyfire]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

My inclination would be to say something like "You need to go to the potty? Okay, let's go!" and then on the way ask "do you need the potty or do you want to read stories?" and let that open up a discussion that she can ask to read stories with you. (And actually go read stories on the couch or something.)

Then, after you have her asking to read stories when she wants that and pottying when she actually has to go, you'll have to start doing stuff like "Let's do cleaning for 20 minutes, I'll mop and do dishes, you can play with your toys, or help me, and then we'll read stories/do playdough/dance in the rain"

I'd also look into memorizing some stories and seeing if you can tell her stories while you work.

And how about getting a potty chair that you can grab, "oh you need to go potty? I have to work in the kitchen, so let's set you up right here where you can see me!"

I never thought of putting the potty chair in the kitchen. There's one to try!

Yeah, I've tried reasoning with her before and asking if she wants to potty or if she wants to read a book. She always says "potty" even if she really just wants to be read to. I think it's because she caught on to me

[amberskyfire]

Originally Posted by tankgirl73

Ahhh, gotcha. Clever little thing, then, isn't she?

Could you wear her in a sling when you're doing something like the dishes? Would she go for something like that? I still wear my 3yo occasionally when she's cranky. She gets the cuddling she needs, I get my housework done. Normally I'd also suggest that you have her help with your work, usually kids this age LOVE that, but you say you've tried that. Have you looked into Montessori Practical Life activities? It might be a way to get her into the groove of this sort of activity so that she'd be more inclined to do them with you (or her own versions alongside you, as the case may be).

Otherwise, it sounds like you're on a good track now, not reading on the potty or letting her stay there too long... and I love sapphire_chan's suggestion (I usually do lol) asking on the way whether she wants the potty or the stories. And don't forget about the stand-up pee option!

She hates being worn and the only type of attention that she likes is the complete and undivided type. I can't even just sit and read a story to her. Oh, no. It must involve hundreds of questions and explanations of all of the pictures as well as discussions of the colors that she sees and naming various letters of the alphabet.

She's able to do some activities with me. When I'm cooking or washing dishes, I usually give her a few containers with a little bit of water in them and various measuring cups and spoons and she busies herself happily with measuring out water into the different containers. Mopping I still haven't figured out yet.

[amberskyfire]

Originally Posted by newmum35

Yikes. I've never heard this. Care to elaborate a little more? Why shouldn't rewards be used?

My husband came up with the idea of our DS getting to open a present for a poo, and he also gets a sticker every time he pees. So we're very much into rewards and now I'm curious to find out just how this is harmful if anyone can direct me to a page or explain more about it.

I'm kind of flip-flopping on this issue right now. So far, I have only heard one reason for not offering rewards. There may be others I don't know about. What other natural-living moms tell me is that you should never offer rewards for something that they should be doing anyway. If you do, then you make it seem too important when it really should just be something that they should do without being asked. Also, they say that by doing this, you create a situation in which the child will always expect a reward for doing it.

My only problem with that explanation is that everyone I have ever known has used the reward method. EVERYONE. And it has worked well for all of them and once the child started using the potty regularly, there were no issues with wanting a reward every time they did something.

There may be people with a lot more experience than I have, though. All I hear nowadays is that ZOMG! IT'S BAD BAD BAD! People rarely give me a reason why. I don't know anything about parenting a toddler, so I kind of just took all the natural moms' advice on that.

I can't remember how my mother potty trained me, but with my brother, she had a candle. She would light the candle and set it on the bathroom counter and when my brother finished using the potty, he got to blow the candle out. It worked spectacularly. Someone else said something about blowing bubbles. My good friend used to give her son a chocolate chip every time he went and she's super into natural parenting, even does unschooling, so I dunno.

Personally, I don't really understand the problem. I often reward myself for a job well done, even if it's something I'm supposed to be doing anyway, like cleaning the house. I've been known to let myself have a piece of cake or some candy if I get my chores done.

But what do I know?

[newmum35]

Thanks, that really helps clarify!

Love the candle idea. But what if they don't go at all? Does the parent blow it out, I'm guessing.

The last bit had me LOL but you're totally right and I know some people do this. (myself, I usually dont have enough willpower to finish the chores before eating the cake if I want the cake I eat it first unless I think of it halfway through then I have to decide what to do! lol )

[serenbat]

Quote:
Originally Posted by amberskyfire
I have always heard that you should never give rewards for potty training but I was wondering if you would give rewards in this type of situation.
Yikes. I've never heard this. Care to elaborate a little more? Why shouldn't rewards be used?

we don't give rewards for eating we don't give for pooping- it's all what is expected- we set examples, we don't get rewards for going to the bathroom why would or should we give it to a child? Both myself and my DH and everyone I know, we PT way prior to 2 years old (not 4 like NOW) and we all did it without a reward of any type- I feel sometimes it's the parent that is up-set with the PTing and not the child and wants things at their pace and now at the child's pace- I see it as simply giving in and it a snowball effect

we don't give rewards for cleaning or helping around the house, it's everyone job and what needs to be done and bodily functions are the same at our home- EXPECTED BEHAVIOR and thus not rewarded

I see so many children that "expect" gold stars and toy for breathing, we are not parents that do this. I also don't buy into the award for everyone concept.

"good-job" is a reward in it self- some times I wonder how humans have been allowed to continue without how rewards?

simply show pt for what it is- expected behavior, praise is great and NOT a reward

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by amberskyfire

She's able to do some activities with me. When I'm cooking or washing dishes, I usually give her a few containers with a little bit of water in them and various measuring cups and spoons and she busies herself happily with measuring out water into the different containers. Mopping I still haven't figured out yet.

Give her a wet cloth or a cloth and a spritzer bottle with diluted vinegar and have her wipe down the fronts of your cabinets, refrigerator, so forth. Or, and this will take a LOT longer, mop your floors by skating around with damp cloths and she can push a cloth around too.

Or get a small mop for her to push around. Lina adores sweeping but tends to use the broom like she's playing shuffle board , I bet that'd work much better with mopping.

Also, re: dishwashing, Lina likes scrubbing a bowl with soapy water with a dish brush. If you've got the sink space for her to play near you, maybe she could do some actual washing? At least get you a preliminary wash so you only have to deal with really stubborn food? I'll set Lina up at the sink with the dishbrush while I do stuff like chop veggies.

[sapphire_chan]

The problem with praise and rewards is that all too often it isn't an act of genuinely celebrating with the child, but rather is an attempt to manipulate them.

I'm sure you've encountered people like that <syrupy voice> "Oh Good Sharing, say 'Thank You' to Johnny, Sally, he did Good Sharing, can you Share" </syrupy voice> with a creepy emphasis on the desired activity.

Studies (check out Alfie Kohn's books for which studies ) have shown that kids who are praised end up less likely to do activities spontaneously. For instance, the classes who got pizza for reading X amount of books read fewer books.

One aspect of it that's especially relevant to us as parents is that praise and rewards imply that the child is doing it FOR us. As in "can you do me a favor and poop in the potty? You will? Great! Thank you!" so if they don't feel like doing you a favor, y'know, because toddlers kind of enjoy a certain negative word , then they don't use the potty. Whereas avoiding praise/rewards makes using the potty (pick up toys, eat some veggies, what have you) a more matter of fact "it is as it is" arrangement that isn't affected by how you're feeling towards other people.

[sapphire_chan]

Anyway, back on topic, it's annoying that she doesn't respond to being asked if she'd rather read books. Gotta go with the people who say don't read her the books on the toilet then. If she asks for them, "oh, we'll read books when you're done on the potty "

(Mind you, if she's obviously pooping, I could see grabbing a book for her then )

[r&mmommy]

Originally Posted by newmum35

Yikes. I've never heard this. Care to elaborate a little more? Why shouldn't rewards be used?

My husband came up with the idea of our DS getting to open a present for a poo, and he also gets a sticker every time he pees. So we're very much into rewards and now I'm curious to find out just how this is harmful if anyone can direct me to a page or explain more about it.

I've potty trained several children. With some I've used rewards (stickers, bubbles, etc.) and some I didn't. It really depended on the child and what they needed. With any reward I find a graduated system works best so the reward system is quickly over with (a sticker every time, to a sticker after a morning without accidents, day with out accidents, etc.) and no food/candy rewards. I guess if you find yourself being held hostage to the reward then it's time to rethink.

[Shami]

I understand the philosophy behind not rewarding things that should be done anyway. BUT... rewards, for me, is a kind of last resort. I try very hard to manage without giving rewards other than a little praise. Praise is a reward, too. So, if you use praise a lot, you can over do that too! Aahh! Sometimes thinking about this hurts my brain! lol

I don't really understand when adults are compared to children. Adults have a lot of internal motivation to do things like potty and clean the house. Children may or may not at any given time, have the internal motivation. I still believe that a little external motivation when used sparingly, or as a last resort is okay until the child develops his/her own internal motivation.

Re: the blowing bubbles to go potty

Dd asked for bubbles for about 2 weeks and it started to fade. She forgot to ask. I didn't offer and we were done with the external reward by the third week.
I guess in the instance of pottying, I did use it immediately because I wanted her to succeed as quickly as possible. I had read so many pottying nightmares here on mdc and I was afraid of the possibilities. So, I did all of the things I had heard that worked.

[Shami]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

The problem with praise and rewards is that all too often it isn't an act of genuinely celebrating with the child, but rather is an attempt to manipulate them.

Studies (check out Alfie Kohn's books for which studies ) have shown that kids who are praised end up less likely to do activities spontaneously. For instance, the classes who got pizza for reading X amount of books read fewer books.

These studies are fascinating. The exact opposite effect happens to children who are rewarded with an external motivator. Alpie's books and articles are the reason I really try hard to limit my use of rewards/praise and time outs. Highly recommend his book Unconditional Parenting. Maybe I need to reread it! lol