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It's official

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 
My husband just got back from meeting with our church leadership, having written a letter in response to them telling me I am not allowed to nurse uncovered anywhere but the uncomfortable and inadequate nursing room that is only available for 1hr, not even all of service, let alone any time afterwards.

He presented a very well reasoned arguement that breastfeeding uncovered was not a sin and that none of the reasons they suggested for making any rules about it were at all biblical and also inconsistent with not having rules about modest standards of dress. As we do not meet in a church building, but a publicly funded club, he also pointed out that their actions were illegal.

They are completely non responsive and will not even discuss the matter. It's basically an independent church, so there is no person higher up to go to. To add insult to injury, the church in general is not even aware of the rule, not even the nursing mothers, which makes it look like deliberately making it an unwritten rule to avoid any legal repercussions, which is rather worrying.

I'm not really sure what to do next, because the law is framed in terms of the woman, even though I feel that in reality, I'm sticking up for the rights of babies (I'm more concerned about any impacts this has on the duration of breastfeeding for other mothers than myself), it still appears to be about my rights, which the pastor has made it pretty clear he doesn't think anyone should express.

I'm thinking about writing to the whole congregation as that appears to be the next step biblically, but the temptation to contact the club and point out that they are renting out their building to an organisation that is acting illegally is very high, as is directly reporting them to the law.
post #2 of 23


It sounds like going to the church at large might be the most viable next step. Be aware that you very well may get mixed reactions though.

I'm frustrated for you.
post #3 of 23
Just for yourself, you might be interested in this piece. It's specifically about breastfeeding and modesty in the LDS church, but most of it relates very much to Christianity in general.

Along the exact same lines, you might appreciate this:

Quote:
let me share my joy [about breastfeeding] without thinking I’m criticizing or diminishing you.

Unless you think breastfeeding is something that should be hidden or something weird or something to be done under cover, in that small room . . .

Then I am criticizing you, and I’m saying you’re mistaken.

And this includes people who are afraid that exposing (young) men to women breastfeeding will somehow harm them morally. I can’t even believe I typed that sentence. It's completely illogical. Letting young men see what breasts are for will LET THEM SEE WHAT BREASTS ARE FOR.
The second one covers ground other than public nursing (getting into cross-nursing and Steinbeck and such), but I really liked the above.

But as for how to address this practically, I do agree with KristiDi that addressing the congregation might be the next step, but also feel that there might be very mixed reaction. But if you feel like there's no other recourse, I think it's worth a shot. Yes, there might be uninformed and prejudiced attitudes, but who knows? You might change some minds, even if not everyone's. I would think about mentioning the points made in the two pieces I linked (and I'm sure your husband's letter brought up salient points as well).

Best of luck to you!
post #4 of 23
what will happen if you just nurse during worship? will he stop preaching and escort you out? i would just disregard the "rule" since it is (1) not biblically based (2) not legally based and (3) not being applied to others. (and i go to a small conservative, reformed church...i nurse on the 2nd pew where my family always sits. no problems at all)
post #5 of 23
I was going to say just ignore him too. He cant actually do anything to you. Is he really go to yell at you in front of everyone? That could be interesting!
post #6 of 23
I know there was a lot of background to this (I wasn't quite able to keep up with your other thread) but I would just go on doing whatever you need to do to feed your baby. What are they going to do, stop everything & kick you out of the church? I would also consider writing a note to the entire church or even better, find a few other moms there who would support this cause & then approach it as a group (either have the group address the congregation via letter or informally spreading the word, OR start up a "BF'ing support group" within your church. I would be hesitant to contact whoever they are leasing the building from -- 1, I doubt the owner would care, as long as (s)he's getting the monthly rent, and 2, if they were kicked out of the building, that leaves your whole church with nowhere to congregate, which I don't think is really fair (2 wrongs don't make a right type of thing).
post #7 of 23
I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. A church of all place to disrespect a mother tending to her baby's needs like this. Sigh. I, too, wonder about ignoring him... otherwise going to the congregation. And if that didnt work, I would go to the people responsibile for the community building as well. Or maybe at the same time.
post #8 of 23
I like the ide of going to the congregation, especialy since it's in keeping with your faith, but I would probably just say:

The church leaders say I can't nurse my child in church without a cover. Since I am not willing to use a cover, nor am I willing to use the closet cum nursing room thereby isolating myself for much of the service and negating the purpose of coming here to worship, I want you all to know that I will keep nursng my baby in my seat, discretely but not covered.

Anyone got a problem with that, feel free to take it up with god. S/he made the baby food come out of the boobs, not ME!

Quote:
Originally Posted by abharrington View Post
what will happen if you just nurse during worship? will he stop preaching and escort you out? i would just disregard the "rule" since it is (1) not biblically based (2) not legally based and (3) not being applied to others. (and i go to a small conservative, reformed church...i nurse on the 2nd pew where my family always sits. no problems at all)
Totally! What are they gonna do, hire bouncers instead of ushers?
post #9 of 23
Have you contacted first right? www.firstright.org I believe is their web address.
post #10 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by crunchy_mommy View Post
I know there was a lot of background to this (I wasn't quite able to keep up with your other thread) but I would just go on doing whatever you need to do to feed your baby. What are they going to do, stop everything & kick you out of the church? I would also consider writing a note to the entire church or even better, find a few other moms there who would support this cause & then approach it as a group (either have the group address the congregation via letter or informally spreading the word, OR start up a "BF'ing support group" within your church. I would be hesitant to contact whoever they are leasing the building from -- 1, I doubt the owner would care, as long as (s)he's getting the monthly rent, and 2, if they were kicked out of the building, that leaves your whole church with nowhere to congregate, which I don't think is really fair (2 wrongs don't make a right type of thing).
These are good ideas too!
post #11 of 23
Thread Starter 
lots of good ideas, thanks, I haven't contacted firstright, I'm not entirely sure what they are or what they do, if anyone can explain that easily, it would helpful.

The reason I don't just go and do it is because that is what I did do and I got yelled at, just over the phone, not right in the middle of service! There have been some other things, but because of how this issue has been handled, I've lost trust in the leadership, I think I'm supposed to trust and submit to the leadership, so when I don't, to go to church and act like I do would be deceitful and it has been said that if I did continue to do it, they would move to forcibly remove me from the church.
post #12 of 23
Firstright.org is an organization that helps people who have been discriminated against for BF'ing their child.

I contacted them after I had an issue at Great Wolf Lodge about a year ago. They contact the people and explain that the law is such and such, and that they are in violation of the law.

I would let them go ahead and physically remove me. Then I would file charges of assault against them, as they did not have your permission to touch you or your child. Then they will claim the breastfeeding was the cause of your removal when asked to leave for doing it. They have services open to the public, so they cannot force you to leave for doing what you are allowed to do under the law.

Furthermore, the place the church rents space from for their meetings, will also not be happy with the fact that they are being pulled into this because the church is doing something illegal.
post #13 of 23
Thread Starter 
What happened at Great Wolf Lodge, we're thinking of going there soon!

You're right that a church can't physically prevent you from being in a service, but then that isn't why I go to church, it's not like going to the swimming pool, going to a particular church on a Sunday is a lot more than just an activity, more like if you belonged to a group and they didn't like you breastfeeding and stopped being friends with you, but they met in Starbucks and they couldn't prevent you from sitting at the table with them, you wouldn't want to do and it takes away a large part of the purpose of being there, when it's about relationships, not the activity.
post #14 of 23
dear one,
i think it is time to move on. this is not a godly church, they are not biblicly (sp) based at all. even if you need to home church for a while.
post #15 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by annekh23 View Post
What happened at Great Wolf Lodge, we're thinking of going there soon!
I was nursing my 15-18 month old by the doors to the water park entrance. A lifeguard came up and offered me a towel to cover up with (I was showing maybe a 1/4 - 1/2 inch of skin, as my shirt was raised just enough it wasn't hitting her face). When I said no and informed her of my rights to nurse under Ohio State Laws, she got offensive, and went to get another lifeguard/supervisor. I went and got Management and told them to try to head a fight off at the pass. Management passed it off as being spring break and lots of new employees not knowing things. Not the case, because when we left a few minutes after this, I could feel all managers watching and discussing us.
post #16 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by uumomma View Post
dear one,
i think it is time to move on. this is not a godly church, they are not biblicly (sp) based at all. even if you need to home church for a while.
i agree. i would write an open letter to the congregation first explaining why i left.

wwjd? i'm thinking he didn't go around berating and belittling women as they bf their babies. makes me think that whoever is pestering you about this has a serious sexual hang up about breasts and is trying to make themselves comfortable so as to resist sinful thoughts. that's their bad.
post #17 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by boobs4milk View Post
i agree. i would write an open letter to the congregation first explaining why i left.

wwjd? i'm thinking he didn't go around berating and belittling women as they bf their babies. makes me think that whoever is pestering you about this has a serious sexual hang up about breasts and is trying to make themselves comfortable so as to resist sinful thoughts. that's their bad.
post #18 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by uumomma View Post
dear one,
i think it is time to move on. this is not a godly church, they are not biblicly (sp) based at all. even if you need to home church for a while.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boobs4milk View Post
i agree. i would write an open letter to the congregation first explaining why i left.
You know I think I agree. It is of course a decision you and your DH have to make. But I don't think I could be comfortable taking spiritual guidance from someone who can't treat me with respect as a sister in Christ. Yelling at you, belittling you, refusing to listen to reasonable arguments, and stubbornly insisting that things must be done his (the leader's) way, then calling it sin and disrespect when you disagree are not the actions of a mature Christian who is leading others with wisdom, grace and love.

I'm so sorry you are dealing with this and I totally understand how leaving a church is not a simple, easily made decision, especially a church where you are involved and serving and have good relationships.
post #19 of 23
If a church violates state and federal laws (ie. abillity to breastfeed in public), they can loose thier tax-exempt status. I doubt this specific issue has ever come up, it is usually associated with racial discrimination, but if any tax-exempt entity violates the law, their tax-exempt status can be revoked. Funny thing, money makes people change their tune real fast.

It is time to get copies of the law and the consequences that may arise if they are found to be violating that law. The fact that they put such a "rule" in a letter, makes it now a written rule. I would suggest a letter to the entire congregation along with a copy of the letter you recieved. Involve your dh in this process so the letter doesn't come across as an emotional rant, better yet, have him write it. It should focus on the legality of the issue at this point.

I would also write up formal letters to the IRS and the owners of the building the church is renting. The congregation should know you are ready to send these letters if they can't follow the law.

In my opinion - it is time you and your dh start looking for another congregation. This pastor is just beginning to show you the signs of what you can expect in the future.
post #20 of 23
Annekh, I have been following your situation. I am so sorry this is happening to you.

I agree with this:
Quote:
makes me think that whoever is pestering you about this has a serious sexual hang up about breasts and is trying to make themselves comfortable so as to resist sinful thoughts. that's their bad.
I think you should get out. You deserve better. And so does your baby!
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