Bothered by DH's overly-touchy/close uncle. - Page 3

[~Sarah~]

Originally Posted by rightkindofme

That is an attitude that is really common and understood by most people. You can think it is over the top but in my family of origin adult men are *never* left alone with female children. Not even the fathers. It's a cultural thing and one that many people agree with.

That's really interesting---may I ask what culture this is? I'd love to learn more about the origins of this.

[~Sarah~]

Originally Posted by Trinitty

Reading this thread is reminding me why I put Protecting the Gift down, finding it a sensationalistic piece of paranoid trash. Typical modern-day dramatization of pain and crime, ala Oprah and Law and Order SVU. Sick.

Wow, I found it to be completely the opposite. I felt it helped to put most men in the clear by teaching you how to distinguish *actual* warning signs from those behaviors that are not, in and of themselves, a problem. It made me feel I have tools to feel comfortable with DD's uncles being with her, because I can see what behavior is and, more importantly, *isn't* there. I felt more safe and at peace with the world after finishing it.

[philomom]

Originally Posted by ~Sarah~

Wow, I found it to be completely the opposite. I felt it helped to put most men in the clear by teaching you how to distinguish *actual* warning signs from those behaviors that are not, in and of themselves, a problem. It made me feel I have tools to feel comfortable with DD's uncles being with her, because I can see what behavior is and, more importantly, *isn't* there. I felt more safe and at peace with the world after finishing it.

Yes, I'm with you on this. The book rests on my shelf.

[Trinitty]

I am sorry. I was unclear in my post.

I meant to make those two separate points.

1) That Protecting the Gift is a sensationalistic book that dramatizes crime for the entertainment of the reader, ala Oprah and Law and Order SVU.

AND, separately

2) That there is a certain school of thought which presumes all men to be potential rapists and child molesters until proven otherwise.

I did not mean to infer that the BOOK said that. I disliked it and quit reading it for other reasons.

Just to be sure: Protecting the Gift is the book that opens with the narrative describing the mother and daughter walking from the movie theatre and being pursued by a bad guy, right?

The mother saves the day by stabbing the bad guy's eyeballs out with her ignition key? If this is the same book everyone is raving about, I am at a loss. I don't get it. I think it was written to sell books.

The message: be street smart, don't trust strangers, do lots of background checks, keep your children close and arm yourself if needed.... is pretty simple. I just said it in a sentence.

Please correct me if this is a different book, or, if it miraculously changes in its approach, tone and content.

Trin.

[rightkindofme]

Originally Posted by ~Sarah~

That's really interesting---may I ask what culture this is? I'd love to learn more about the origins of this.

Well, I grew up poor and rural and white. I know that is kind of broad. The specific kind of redneck my family is seems to be pretty common because I have talked to a lot of people with similar upbringings. There seems to be some flavor of heavily religious mixed in there. (My family background is Mennonite though I wasn't raised in that church.) Like many Euro-mutts it's hard to define my culture easily.

[rightkindofme]

Originally Posted by Trinitty

2) That there is a certain school of thought which presumes all men to be potential rapists and child molesters until proven otherwise.

You know what, I understand that you think that men are given a bad wrap. In many cases I agree with you. I think that putting up blanket rules at all times is a bad idea. Would I point blank lie to a specific person about having a blanket rule? Sure. If I am uncomfortable with someones behavior I don't need any excuse or justification for limiting their contact with my kid no matter what anyone else thinks. The OP is uncomfortable. That's enough for me. Does that mean all men are perps? No. But as someone who was the victim of severe sexual assault and rape as a child I can tell you that every flippin person who knew my perpetrators said, "Oh but they would never." I would rather be overprotective than let any other girl go through what I went through.

(I know that earlier in this thread I said it was standard for my family to not allow girls alone with any man. It was. My mother didn't have control of the fact that the courts said my father got unsupervised visitation. And the neighbors took full advantage of me being a latchkey kid.)

[Trinitty]

That is astounding and appalling. I am so sory that happened to you. I am thankful every day that I had a safe and happy home as a child.

Trin.

[rightkindofme]

Originally Posted by Trinitty

That is astounding and appalling. I am so sory that happened to you. I am thankful every day that I had a safe and happy home as a child.

Trin.

I'm really really glad you did too. Sincerely. I wish that for every little girl. With great gentleness may I request that you not act like some of are over the top in our responses? Many of us have very good reasons.

[claddaghmom]

Originally Posted by Trinitty

I am sorry. I was unclear in my post.

I meant to make those two separate points.

1) That Protecting the Gift is a sensationalistic book that dramatizes crime for the entertainment of the reader, ala Oprah and Law and Order SVU.

AND, separately

2) That there is a certain school of thought which presumes all men to be potential rapists and child molesters until proven otherwise.

I did not mean to infer that the BOOK said that. I disliked it and quit reading it for other reasons.

Just to be sure: Protecting the Gift is the book that opens with the narrative describing the mother and daughter walking from the movie theatre and being pursued by a bad guy, right?

The mother saves the day by stabbing the bad guy's eyeballs out with her ignition key? If this is the same book everyone is raving about, I am at a loss. I don't get it. I think it was written to sell books.

The message: be street smart, don't trust strangers, do lots of background checks, keep your children close and arm yourself if needed.... is pretty simple. I just said it in a sentence.

Please correct me if this is a different book, or, if it miraculously changes in its approach, tone and content.

Trin.

Wow, I've never met anyone w/ such a viewpoint about that book. How interesting! I've always recommended it to help calm parents down and get them into a rational mode in regards to childhood scares. The author dedicates a lot of the book to pulling out the numbers and trying to show people that random kidnapping is rare and nothing to freak out about. And he brilliantly delves into the tangible yet often ignored aspects of grooming, social boundaries and how to connect with your child on a sincere level. I honestly wish every parent would read his book.

Are you sure you're not baiting on here?

[Trinitty]

Also with gentleness,

I do know that horrible things happen to children every day and that some parents do not provide a safe and happy home.... I also know that this, thankfully, is not typical and that cases like yours are not in the majority.

I am almost always speaking generally. Generally, I find many folk are over the top with thinking that men are dangerous and potentially evil.

I know that exceptional situations do exist and will do my best to help those who are in them... but when I am commenting generally, I do not have the terrible exceptions in mind.

With respect,

Trin.

[claddaghmom]

Originally Posted by Trinitty

Also with gentleness,

I do know that horrible things happen to children every day and that some parents do not provide a safe and happy home.... I also know that this, thankfully, is not typical and that cases like yours are not in the majority.

I am almost always speaking generally. Generally, I find many folk are over the top with thinking that men are dangerous and potentially evil.

I know that exceptional situations do exist and will do my best to help those who are in them... but when I am commenting generally, I do not have the terrible exceptions in mind.

With respect,

Trin.

I'm curious then...do you find the statistics to be falsely bloated? Or do you think they are correct, but just as many women out there are also predators, only not reported?

I've always wondered if the abuse statistics are actually much, much worse than what we are led to believe because female predators might not be caught or prosecuted at the same rate as males. Oh, I know, it reminds me of the domestic abuse situation. The statistics show that the majority of cases includes a male battering a female. But in recent years people have been fighting for awareness of males who are battered by females.

[Trinitty]

Wow, I really hope I am not baiting. I have been here for years and I haven't done so, as far as I know. I honestly wasn't trying to start something.

So, are you saying that this book changes in tone and approach? It changes after the first chapter? Because after that first chapter with the narrative of edge-of-your-seat dramatization, I was totally repulsed.

IF it changes after the first chapter, then, I will take another look at it... but from my first attempt, it was a book I did not want to continue reading.

PM me on this if you wish... I think I have derailed this thread enough. Sorry OP!

Trin.

[GuildJenn]

OP, I think if you have become increasingly uncomfortable then it is time to step in in some way. It is not accusatory to simply state you are not comfortable with certain things. I think my best advice for you is try to do it right when the behaviour is happening, and calmly. Like "I don't want my child in your room; it's not appropriate as far as I'm concerned."

Originally Posted by churndash

People in this thread are accusing him.

It's a very serious thing, to call someone a child molester or a potential child molester. "Mama bear instinct" isn't an excuse for making unsupported, potentially devastating accusations.

We can protect our children without calling every male who likes children a child molester.

True. But I didn't see anyone saying to the OP CALL THE POLICE or anything like that. When our instincts are going off, it's okay to remove our children or establish boundaries. They can be re-examined later.

It's not fair to our vulnerable kids to worry more about feelings being hurt or manners than their safety. He's a grown up; if his feelings are hurt he can manage that.

Originally Posted by Trinitty

Wow, I really hope I am not baiting. I have been here for years and I haven't done so, as far as I know. I honestly wasn't trying to start something.

So, are you saying that this book changes in tone and approach? It changes after the first chapter? Because after that first chapter with the narrative of edge-of-your-seat dramatization, I was totally repulsed.

IF it changes after the first chapter, then, I will take another look at it... but from my first attempt, it was a book I did not want to continue reading.

PM me on this if you wish... I think I have derailed this thread enough. Sorry OP!

Trin.

It does. He talks about that incident and then he says "so we're all worried about stranger danger...the chances are it will never happen to you, but let's talk about it so we can get it out of the way." And then he goes on to say a lot of other things.

I think it might help to take it in context, which is that he wrote The Gift of Fear first, which talks a lot about trusting your instincts. The example with the mom is kind of about that. If you keep reading I think he goes on to say "stranger danger is totally rare, but I'm talking about it because you people keep worrying about it. Here's some more on that. Now let's move on to the real issues."

[Marsupialmom]

Originally Posted by claddaghmom

I'm curious then...do you find the statistics to be falsely bloated? Or do you think they are correct, but just as many women out there are also predators, only not reported?

I've always wondered if the abuse statistics are actually much, much worse than what we are led to believe because female predators might not be caught or prosecuted at the same rate as males. Oh, I know, it reminds me of the domestic abuse situation. The statistics show that the majority of cases includes a male battering a female. But in recent years people have been fighting for awareness of males who are battered by females.

For a portion of the population of male abusers (and devients), I wonder how many of them were abused by men and women. Look at how many times when a 15 year old male is molested by a female teacher it is an attaboy.

I am going to agree and disagree with Trinitty about Protecting the gift. I am going totally agree with her about assuming men are sex preditor. I think the meda and sensationalization cases have not helped the situation.

[claddaghmom]

Originally Posted by Marsupialmom

For a portion of the population of male abusers (and devients), I wonder how many of them were abused by men and women. Look at how many times when a 15 year old male is molested by a female teacher it is an attaboy.

I am going to agree and disagree with Trinitty about Protecting the gift. I am going totally agree with her about assuming men are sex preditor. I think the meda and sensationalization cases have not helped the situation.

DH and I just talked about this b/c we watched that crazy South Park Episode where the teacher falls in love w/ the kindergarten student. When the other characters in the show learned about it (e.g. the police) they showed support for it. Imagine if it had been a male teacher/female student!

[claddaghmom]

Originally Posted by Trinitty

Wow, I really hope I am not baiting. I have been here for years and I haven't done so, as far as I know. I honestly wasn't trying to start something.

So, are you saying that this book changes in tone and approach? It changes after the first chapter? Because after that first chapter with the narrative of edge-of-your-seat dramatization, I was totally repulsed.

IF it changes after the first chapter, then, I will take another look at it... but from my first attempt, it was a book I did not want to continue reading.

PM me on this if you wish... I think I have derailed this thread enough. Sorry OP!

Trin.

Sorry, Trin. I think I added too much into your words. But no, the book does not follow along the typical cultural lines of this issue. I think the story in the first chapter actually serves to show how we can avoid situations like that by simply being aware of ourselves and our surroundings and listening to our instincts. I didn't see it as him trying to convince us that danger lurks around the corner.

It was probably a carefully thought out choice to include that story in the beginning, too, because I think a lot of people do buy into the fear factor, so perhaps he was hoping it would attract the very people who needed to learn more about the issue.

At any rate, I still highly recommend that the OP read his books b/c she is in a situation where more information-and more confidence-could be very valuable to her. From one post online we don't know what's going on. At the very least, her story shows she isn't receiving a lot of respect and she is unsure how to maintain social expectations while still being the parent. A lot of Becker's writing on grooming and manipulation could really help the OP even if there is no molester. Just b/c the ultimate goal isn't to molest, doesn't mean someone is being respectful and honest in a situation. I've "caught" some grooming behavior before when the sitaution had nothing to do with molestation or children. It's just socially sneaky method to get another person to do what you want.

[eclipse]

Well, there's nothing specific in your posts that really disturbs me. I honestly don't see anything he's done as inappropriate in a family, particularly an extended family that lives in the same home, except taking her to the store without your permission. And, although I'd be furious if someone took my toddler from a family party without telling anyone, I think that could be a cutural thing. Kids don't seem to be watched as closely here in Mexico (I'm not sure if the uncle is from a Latin culture, but it sounded like it - I know "mama" is common nick name for little girls in Latin America) as in the US, and there's sort of an assumption that with all the family around, someone is bound to be watching them. As well, fawning over little girls is common place. Everytime we go anywhere, grown men stop and talk to my two youngest kids (a girl and long haired boy assumed to be a girl) and tell them how beautiful they are and talk about their beautiful hair and eyes, etc. It sometimes makes me uncomfortable, but I know that it's just the way it is here, and no harm is meant by it. People do give off "vibes," but sometimes it's harder to read when you're dealing cross culturally. However, you're the mom and you get to make decisions about your daughter. What does your husband think about it? Have you talked to him about it? Maybe having your husband have a chat with him about giving your dd space would be helpful.

[limabean]

Originally Posted by WindyCityMom

We cannot realistically remove ourselves from this living situation. BUT, I can try and ensure that I keep both of my girls downstairs in our apartment as much as possible, or outside, or just in general away from him, you know?

...

It is hard.. just because we're dependent on everyone. And MIL would never kick us out.. so I'm going to start being firm. Thanks again.

Have you thought about what you would do if your MIL suddenly was unable to accommodate you in her home for whatever reason? If she wasn't there for you to rely on, you'd figure something else out, you know? It might be a good idea to at least discuss a plan with your DH in case you guys need it.

Originally Posted by Trinitty

The key here is for your family to end the dependency on extended family and to be on your own. This will give you privacy and security. You can write your own ticket and have some freedom.

If you have your own home, you don't need to constantly fret about your relatives. This solves the problem, long term.

I agree with Trinitty here. Do you have specific plans for financial independence that you're working towards? Not relying on other people financially is a great way to have total control over your life and your children's surroundings/interactions.

As for the uncle's behavior, what you've described in this thread wouldn't raise any red flags for me -- many of our extended family members act similarly with my kids, and I act that way with my nieces and nephews. But if you're getting an icky feeling in your gut with this guy, it's good you're not ignoring it and are being more proactive about closely monitoring any interaction with the uncle.

[A&A]

Originally Posted by ~Sarah~

Wow, I found it to be completely the opposite. I felt it helped to put most men in the clear by teaching you how to distinguish *actual* warning signs from those behaviors that are not, in and of themselves, a problem. It made me feel I have tools to feel comfortable with DD's uncles being with her, because I can see what behavior is and, more importantly, *isn't* there. I felt more safe and at peace with the world after finishing it.

[A&A]

This is what I got from Protecting the Gift: Trust your gut. Those instincts have evolved over time as a species-survival tool.

So that's why the OP's FEELINGS/INSTINCTS matter more than the specific details of why she feels that way, imho.