Church singers/musicians-teenager question

[Tradd]

I need input from other church singers/musicians on issues with teenagers.

I'm in my parish's choir. All acapella music - no instruments ever. We're up at the front of the church in one corner. Director stands with his back at an angle to congregation and singers at music stands arranged in a U-shape around him.

We've got two teenage (or one, almost) girls - 15yo and 12yo. The 15yo is somewhat immature and relates well to the 12yo, per her (15yo's) mom. 15 yo is up in choir every week, 12 yo sometimes, but not every Sunday lately.

Note: 15yo's mom *encourages* other adults to tell her kids to straighten up if they're caught doing anything wrong.

Part of the problem: they yak. And yak. And yak. They do.not.stop. Even when told to be quiet. Sometimes it's louder than others, as it was this past Sunday. They're three people away from me, but it's getting to the point that I am having major difficulty getting the pitch off the director. That means I can't properly sing on key. And I can't be the only one having issues.

Other part of the problem: 15yo will get to choir early, grab a Bible, and sit with her knees up on the bench we store music underneath (and her crotch and butt showing under her micro-mini, even though she wears opaque black tights) reading - throughout the entire service. She's hidden from the congregation because of the standing singers blocking her from being seen. But when she did it yesterday throughout the entire sermon while other singers were sitting in pews, she was on view for everyone to see.

She's been doing this for the better part of a month. No one said anything to her, because she at least was quiet - 12 yo hadn't been in choir recently. But yesterday right before the start of the service, 15yo's mom saw what was going on and mouthed to me (I face congregation) to get 15yo to put Bible down and stand up and sing. She did, but then a bit later in service, she grabbed Bible again and was reading standing up while yakking with 12 yo. 12yo's godmother is in choir and told HER to quit talking while I told 15yo to stop talking and to put book down.

15yo's parents and I talked after service. They were appalled to find out 15yo had been doing the sitting on the bench thing and reading throughout much of service for the better part of a month. Apparently she does it everywhere. I told them that if she was mine, she would be pulled out of choir indefinitely and made to stand with family in congregation. The kid isn't singing - she's hiding in the corner.

I emailed the 12yo's mother yesterday (didn't get a chance to talk to 12yo's parents quietly after service) and asked that she please remind her daughter that choir is for singing and not for yakking with the 15 yo.

The 12yo's family has some major issues, but she and the 15yo feed off each other and they do not stop talking. Even if they're separated by 4-5 other singers, they will literally talk behind the backs of the people standing between them! They are both old enough to know better. I can't imagine their school teachers allow them to yak all day long in class. Choir director is too busy to notice everything that is going on. The women have generally tried to keep the two kids in line ourselves, but it's getting to the breaking point. Several of us have gone to the parents in question before asking them to please talk to their daughters about not yakking, but nothing ever improves.

15yo's parents are going to the choir director - and have asked me to give him a full report of what's been going on - and are going to have him AND our priest talk to the 15yo.

What I'm wondering is at what point do you have to kick a situation "upstairs"? I certainly think the 15yo sitting and reading during the service could have been addressed after 1-2 Sundays of her doing it - maybe we let that one go too long.

I mean, you want the kids to be involved and feel like they're contributing, but when they're not singing and just talking throughout the service, interfering with others' singing due to their noise level, I don't feel that it does anyone a favor to let the situation continue unaddressed, without bringing the director into it.

[cappuccinosmom]

It sounds like these kids are simply not mature enough for the honor or responsibility of being in a formal church choir. Your description of the 15 yo's behavior would have been addressed on the *first* occurrence, and she'd have been out if it happened again, in any of the churches I've attended. It sounds like there's absolutely no desire to be in the choir. This behavior is screaming "I.don't.want.to.sing. Can't make me. Nananana! phlllllbbbt!".

Since this has been addressed many times by many individuals including the parents, how will asking the choir director to "report" help things? IMO, the two need to be told that being in the choir means standing up and singing when it's called for, and being quiet otherwise. If they can't handle that, they need to be in the pews where their parents can deal directly with behavior that disturbs others. They're not involved or contributing. They're doing their own thing and being extraordinarily inconsiderate and rude.

[anj_rn]

We have had this problem in several of our ministries (and not just with teens), we simply say this. Singing in the choir (or fill in the other opportunity) is our ministry, we feel it brings us closer to G-d. As such, participation is a privilege. You have not been exhibiting behavior that is congruent with the purpose of the choir. If you would like to continue being in the choir, _______ is what is expected of you. If you can not meet those expectations, you can withdraw or you will be asked to leave.

[Vojerleda]

I agree w/ the other pps- singing at worship services is a ministry and one should take it very seriously. If they can't hang w/ the rules, they're out; but I'd give them the option to return when they are older and more mature.

[lilyka]

All three of my children sing in the adult choir with their teenage godmothers. along with several girls between the ages of about 7 and 16, However. They get one chance. If they talk or mess around they get sent down to me (I wouldn't have a problem with them sitting quietly and reading the Bible or a prayer book though so long as they sat nicely and concentrated on scripture or prayers. whatever, they are in church.....thats what we are there for.) Our choir loft has good accustics and is micriphoned......you hear everything. once they come down (either by choice or because they get sent down -- well, they have never been sent down...i mean, they are with their nounas, heaven forbid they are anything less than perfectly angelic for them ) they stay with me for the remainder of the service. they may try again next week.

I think someone needs to set some ground rules for these girls and stick to them. and one person needs to be incharge of enforcing them (the godmother sounds like a good choice). My rules would be:
1. if you talk, even once, after the service starts you will need to go sit with your parents. If you have a question you may address it to <responsible adult> .
2. if you want to read or pray you may. but please go sit down with your parents or in the back and do that. You may not do it here.
3. if you are going to stand up here to sing you need to be modestly attired and behave modestly. And then spell out what proper attire is.

My dd and her friend were always trying to talk during the service. granted they were 5 but this may also work for these girls. I let Ava go out and greet Evie when she got to church or Evie could stop and give Ava a quick hug (perhaps these girls could arrive to church a little earlier to catch up quick before the service) and then if they were good and did not distract each other during the service they could sit together during coffee hour. Granted their parents may not be ok with ditching coffee hour or imposing any consequences but you could at least encourage the girls that there will be plenty of time to chat once church is over.

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom

Since this has been addressed many times by many individuals including the parents, how will asking the choir director to "report" help things?

No, it was the 15yo's *mother* who wanted *me* to give the choir director a full report of what's been going on. In other words, she's escalating it of her own choice to include director *and* our priest - since 15yo has not been listening to either her parents or other adults when they tell her to stop the reading & talking in choir during the service. As I mentioned, the women of the choir have been trying to keep the two girls in line ourselves. Not working, so it's getting kicked higher up the food chain.

The 12yo's mother emailed me back today that she'd talked to her daughter for the umpteenth time, and the 12yo said the two girls had only been sitting down. Not a good lie to use! Since if you're in choir, you're supposed to be standing up singing and not sitting down (aside from sermon). She said her daughter does better if parents are sitting where they can keep an eye on her, but they weren't in that place yesterday.

[cappuccinosmom]

Ah, well, either way, I don't think making a report will help, unless the report is "These kiddos aren't ready for choir, please let the parents know this and maybe they can take a break and try again in 6 months or a year."

[Bluegoat]

I think any kind of participation in things like choir, or being an altar server or usher, means that the person will not be able to concentrate as well on the service. So to be involved in such a ministry pesumes that the person has the ability and maturity to participate in the service and prayers as well as whatever extra responsibilities they have.

Along those lines, I tend to think that people new to the church should spend time as part of the congregation before becoming involved in the other ministries, and ideally there should be the option for people in those positions to attend as simple members of the congregation too, either at a service at another time or by having more people than are required at a given time involved.

The girls don't sound ready to me. Their parents should remove them, but maybe they need a push from the choir director or priest before they are willing to do this. I would say that in general it is the responsibility of the parents, priest, and the person in charge of the particular ministry to make sure those involved are ready.

[lilyka]

The only people the choir director need to talk to is the parents. it is not your job or the choir directors or anyone elses to make them behave in choir. once you have given them very clear rules to follow once that should be that. if they cannot obey them the choir director or priest needs to talk to the parents about why the girls can no longer be in choir. the director has a job to do. disciplining little girls for their parents is not it.

[Viola]

Originally Posted by Tradd

I mean, you want the kids to be involved and feel like they're contributing, but when they're not singing and just talking throughout the service, interfering with others' singing due to their noise level, I don't feel that it does anyone a favor to let the situation continue unaddressed, without bringing the director into it.

I just don't think they should be in the choir, period. We have teens in our choir at times, usually the choir director's children. I'm not saying that people in the choir never talk--sometimes I think they talk more than they should for being on display up front (and also because we have these mics on a wire up above our heads and it's hard to know what they will pick up). But if they are talking while you are trying to get a pitch, while other people are trying to sing and they aren't singing, yeah, they are not participating, they should be asked to leave the choir.

We have had this problem in several of our ministries (and not just with teens), we simply say this. Singing in the choir (or fill in the other opportunity) is our ministry, we feel it brings us closer to G-d. As such, participation is a privilege. You have not been exhibiting behavior that is congruent with the purpose of the choir. If you would like to continue being in the choir, _______ is what is expected of you. If you can not meet those expectations, you can withdraw or you will be asked to leave.

Yes, this.