How do you discipline this??

[StephandOwen]

I'm at a loss for this, I really am close to the end of my rope. DS (ASD, SPD) has been having a horrible time at school (he goes through ups and downs, right now he's at a down). He's becoming increasingly violent at school (throwing desks, chairs, hitting, etc). He is NOT like this at home. He had a bad day last week on Monday but then we switched things totally around and Tuesday, Thursday and Friday he had good days (wednesday was a snow day so no school). Today the routine was messed up again (I last week I took him to school early and let him read me a book or two in the library as a nice relaxing way to start the day..... today there was a book fair in the library so chaos was everywhere and it was not the relaxing day we were hoping for).

When I picked him up his para said that he punched a little girl in the stomach and then when the assistant teacher tried to stop him and get him away he kicked her foot

This is not the first time he's hit/pushed kids in his class.... I can only imagine what these parents think of him

But the thing is- he isn't doing it to be mean. When I ask him why he does it he always has a (valid in his mind) excuse. He said that he had to hit the girl in the stomach to make her stomach flat because it was sticking out of her shirt. Is that a good excuse? NO. But in HIS MIND it was. When he pushed his substitute para in music class? Because she wouldn't let him sit by his best friend. A couple weeks ago when he pushed a little girl in line? Because he wanted to stand next to his "best friend" and the other girl wouldn't let him.

I've talked to him until I'm blue in the face but it's not getting through that he CANNOT HIT/PUSH/KICK/etc.

So what do you do? I sent him upstairs to his room after we got home from school, but that's not a punishment. He's just sitting in his room reading. He already knows he won't get any computer/tv/video games tonight because he only earned 3 (out of 5) stamps at school. There's not really anything else to take away (except his books and trains but, to be honest, I HATE having to mess up our whole evening because they can't do anything about it at school so I refuse to take them away).

I have asked for a meeting at the school, we'll see how long it takes to get one.

[LynnS6]

I don't have an answer to your question, but I wonder if changing the question would help you and the school explore a different set of solutions?

You said "it's not getting through that he CANNOT HIT/PUSH/KICK/etc".

My question: What can he do/should he do when he's frustrated and overwhelmed?

Instead of teaching him not to do something (which is hard for any kid, but harder for kids with his combo of diagnoses), what can you and the school substitute for his behaviors that shouldn't continue? Stomp his foot? Call his teacher over? Teach him to do something else with his hands? Substituting behaviors is often easier than stopping them.

Is he still getting ST? It sounds to me like his cognitive development has outpaced his ability to articulate what he's feeling, so he's got these intense feelings that he can't articulate quickly enough (and so he resorts to physical expression of anger/frustration). Can the ST somehow work on this?

Right now, his hitting 'works' for him in that it gets him out of a frustrating situation (because he's removed, right?) I don't know if there is any easy/quick way to build up tolerance to frustration so that he can articulate his needs to other people.

[bdavis337]

Lynn's right. When you want to extinguish a behavior you can't just ask a child to eliminate it b/c you're leaving a vaccuum for them to fill, and they don't know how to do that. He needs to learn to replace that behavior with something else.

[StephandOwen]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

My question: What can he do/should he do when he's frustrated and overwhelmed?

Instead of teaching him not to do something (which is hard for any kid, but harder for kids with his combo of diagnoses), what can you and the school substitute for his behaviors that shouldn't continue? Stomp his foot? Call his teacher over? Teach him to do something else with his hands? Substituting behaviors is often easier than stopping them.

Originally Posted by bdavis337

Lynn's right. When you want to extinguish a behavior you can't just ask a child to eliminate it b/c you're leaving a vaccuum for them to fill, and they don't know how to do that. He needs to learn to replace that behavior with something else.

I get that, and we've tried. But, as with pretty much everything else, the school will do it for a couple days and then stop. He got stamps taken away from him a couple weeks ago because he was hitting his desk with his hand when he was frustrated. When his para told me that I was flabbergasted. To expect him not to get frustrated is setting him up for the impossible. I thought he did well by hitting his desk instead of a person! The autism resource specialist for our district is supposed to be doing more training on ds's para, but I've yet to see any positive affect from it. We love ds's para. He's a very sweet, yet firm, man. He cares very much about ds (I've seen him tear up a few times this year over something with ds). But he just doesn't seem to get it. There are some things he does that just leaves me scratching my head and wondering what training he actually got before he was hired

DS has a *really* hard time remembering to use his words to explain what he wants. He jumps right to a reaction. When he pushed the kid in line because he wanted to stand next to his friend he admits that he didn't use his words to ask the other kid if he could stand next in line. When he pushed his sub para in music class he admitted to me that he didn't tell his para that he was trying to move his chair to sit next to his friend.

Is he still getting ST? It sounds to me like his cognitive development has outpaced his ability to articulate what he's feeling, so he's got these intense feelings that he can't articulate quickly enough (and so he resorts to physical expression of anger/frustration). Can the ST somehow work on this?

No. Sorta. They basically said he met all his goals and didn't need ST anymore. We didn't agree so they agreed to do some pragmatic assessments. So in the last couple months the ST has been doing those assessments on him, but she hasn't been working with him. I just talked to the school today and we have a meeting next week on Monday to discuss the results of those assessments. I have a feeling they now agree with us that his language skills are NOT okay because in the last email I got from them a couple minutes ago they stated that the meeting is to "discuss the results of Owen's pragmatic assessments and to write some pragmatic language goals". I have not seen the results of those, but should have them either tomorrow or the next day.

[bdavis337]

It sounds like this might need to be a goal in his IEP then, if they're not working consistently towards a reasonable, workable solution for him. A measurable goal that makes pursuit of acheivement a long-term thing, not just something short lived that disappears when they run of of initial energy and excitement for it.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by StephandOwen

I get that, and we've tried. But, as with pretty much everything else, the school will do it for a couple days and then stop.

and they wonder why what they're doing isn't working? If they want something to work, they need to be consistent and do it every single time. The only consistent thing that works for your son is what he's doing.

I think the real problem is the school. They're not trying to replace his behavior with something that is acceptable. Just what do they expect? Him to spontaneously get skills one day that he didn't have the day before? Can you build this into the IEP somehow?

Originally Posted by StephandOwen

He got stamps taken away from him a couple weeks ago because he was hitting his desk with his hand when he was frustrated. When his para told me that I was flabbergasted. To expect him not to get frustrated is setting him up for the impossible. I thought he did well by hitting his desk instead of a person!

I agree. Under those rules I would have lost a stamp for slamming the car door 3 times (well 3 different doors) after getting a parking ticket today (dh borrowed my permit and forgot to put it back in my car).

Originally Posted by StephandOwen

DS has a *really* hard time remembering to use his words to explain what he wants. He jumps right to a reaction. When he pushed the kid in line because he wanted to stand next to his friend he admits that he didn't use his words to ask the other kid if he could stand next in line. When he pushed his sub para in music class he admitted to me that he didn't tell his para that he was trying to move his chair to sit next to his friend.

I would argue that he probably can't use his words when he's overwhelmed like this. It takes a lot of ability to self regulate both emotions and language to be able to tell someone, when you're angry or frustrated, that you're angry/frustrated. Since one of the symptoms of autism and SPD is self regulation issues, when his self regulation is off, it's going to take a toll on his ability to use language. (Remember too that since his language was late in coming, he's had less practice in this arena than other children the same age.)

I know that doesn't help with the school, but it might at least make things more comprehensible to you. Maybe, when you talk about pragmatic language, you can add a goal about expressing emotions/needs under various circumstances.

Good luck. I hope the autism specialist will be able to get some results soon. Alas, his para probably has very little training at all.

[APToddlerMama]

Originally Posted by StephandOwen

He got stamps taken away from him a couple weeks ago because he was hitting his desk with his hand when he was frustrated. When his para told me that I was flabbergasted. To expect him not to get frustrated is setting him up for the impossible. I thought he did well by hitting his desk instead of a person!

I don't have a lot to add except wanted to suggest one of those little squeeze head things where when you squeeze it the eyes/ears pop out as an alternative to hitting the desk? I get that he needs an outlet for his frustration. My aunt who is an OT uses those a lot for kids with sensory issues. It is "work" to squeeze them.

[Nosebite]

What about a Break Card.

My DS (ASD) uses this when he is excited and/or frustrated.

Basically it says: (On an index sized card)

I am feeling upset. I need to calm down. What do I do?

You turn the card around and there us four pictures with four options written below the pictures.

1. I can take 3 deep breaths.
2. I can hug myself tightly.
3. I can tighten my muscles 3X.
4. I can use my break card and go to a quiet place.

He uses it mostly at floortime, as he gets so excited when his therapist comes over. But it could work for school.

[cchrissyy]

hi Steph,

sorry to hear this! we had a rough patch last summer with lots of phsycial acting out towards kids and teachers and destroying property. At the time, DS was in a nice full-day summer camp environment with a little therapist support. we tried so much to help, and I was called ot pick him up so many times, it was a nightmare and I felt certain he wouldn't be able to do full-inclusion any more. But then, like flipping a switch, summer ended and school came back, and he settled right in to being a centered, happy kid. I thank mainly his teacher, who is one of those very calm, ultra-organized, neurotic about routines sort of ladies

Obviously, the school needs to be doing better for your boy. I'd just be willing to bet that his acting out shows something inappropriate about the current placement and level of support he's (not) getting, something similar to how my boy's summer camp was a good program and familiar and cared for him but just didn't have the level of structure and social facilitation he required.