Are we messed up or what?

[robin4kids]

So my ds age 12 has been in and out of school several times. We have never made it through a whole year of hsing. We pulled him our 1/2 through first grade. He went back in for 2-4th then we pulled him back out in 4th when we hated the teacher and he had 32 kids in his class. He went back into school 1/2 way through 5th-6th. Now we are again at a point where HE is asking to hs.

For the past 2 months we have been having a lot of difficulty getting through each day. He has been refusing to go to school at least once a week and has missed a lot of school because of it. He and 2 of my other kids go to a Catholic School. DS says he has no friends and the teachers are boring. The fact is a KNOW this to be true. There are no kids in his class that have anything in common with him. The teachers are boring. We just don't have any other choices for schools. Public are not good and charter have a waiting list. We are looking at a waldorf school, but it is very expensive.)

Also ds gets more homework than my 8th grader and 4th grader combined! This stresses him out and causes most nights to be filled with tears and yelling.

So Today he again refused to go to school. There is not much we can do when he does this. (Short of picking him up in his PJs and bringing him to school, kicking and screaming. Which we are so not doing.)

The problem with Hsing is he usually gets angry with whatever work I give and he complains about no friends. He claims that this time he will be better. He says he knows he has no friends in school and he gets more work in school.

My parents think we are being unreasonable. I already hs my 7 y/o. He has never gone to school and it is going pretty well. Is this messed up?

Back ground on ds- He is a nature loving kid. He is very smart, but struggles with reading and writing. He takes everything personally and can have a short temper. He asks for hugs from me at least 5 times a day. He loves physical activities and skate/snow boarding. He is a very special kid, that I feel is getting squashed in the Catholic school system.

Be honest I can take it.

[AAK]

Yep, I do think something is a bit messed up. But that doesn't have to be a bad thing. You can learn from it.

Let's talk about the problems hs. You mention "no friends". But, he doesn't seem to be thriving socially at school either. So, that is a wash I think. Either way, you may need to help him acquire social skills or find opportunities to meet people with similar interests. You also mentioned that he gets angry with work that you give him. He doesn't seem to like the work from school either. So, to me this says that you have a couple choices. One, you could leave him at the current school. Two, you could pull him out and unschool. Three, hs but let him have a say in what he learns. Perhaps if he were more involved in choosing curriculum, methods, etc. he would manage better with the hs. Fourth, enroll him in a virtual school. "You" wouldn't be assigning the work, but he would still have assignments. He wouldn't have to listen to boring lectures, etc. And, you would have more time for him to focus on what he really likes to do (skating/snow boarding). I think his interests would be easy to plan educational opportunities with. You mention reading & writing being the more difficult areas. Is he reading at grade level? If not, perhaps look at ABeCeDarian. If his skills are fine, but he just doesn't like it, let him read non-fiction, or sports magazines, etc. Whatever, just so he reads. Discuss it all afterwards to get a sense of what he understands. Writing can take the form of news coverage of the latest competitions.

I do think though that if you pull him out again, you do it with the understanding that there isn't an option to return until at least high school. Bouncing back and forth isn't good in my opinion. I think kids at that age are capable of being part of the decision making regarding their education. But, I think parents need to hold them accountable for their promises. So if you pull him out and he says that he will do x, y, and z to make it work, then he really needs to do x, y, & z. You can have regular 'family meetings' to adjust expectations, etc. but he needs to follow through with stuff between them. If something isn't working, bring it up at the meeting (you or him) and then brainstorm alternative plans.

Good luck. It is time to make a choice and stick with it. Whatever that may be.

Amy

[Lillian J]

What is it your parents feel you're being unreasonable about? I'm not clear on what your positon is.

Seems to me he's wasting time in school. I can't imagine that it would be any less productive for him being home. I'd also think about getting his vision skills tested - his attitude about reading and writing seems to me like a signal that something could be off, unless, of course, he just hasn't had a chance to find things to read that really appeal to him. And if you bring him home, can't you find social opportunities through local homeschooling groups? I think it would be very frustrating for a boy that age to have no friends. - Lillian

[tankgirl73]

You said you're considering a Waldorf school. Have you looked into Waldorf methods and philosophies as they apply to the homeschool setting? You mentioned that he gets angry over the work you give him, and that he's a nature-loving boy who struggles with reading and writing but is very sensitive and physical. Waldorf could be a great fit for him.

With Waldorf homeschooling, you would focus more on learning through nature, art, and story (which you can read aloud if he's not confident enough to read it on his own), rather than worksheets and drill.

We're not 'pure' Waldorfers here, but since I've started bringing in some Waldorf ideas this past year, it's made a great difference for DS.

[sbgrace]

I would have a vision processing assessment (not his 20/20 vision but things like tracking and other stuff vision therapy can address). My son is much younger but a lot of his resistance to activities was because of visual issues that we corrected with vision therapy. If that checks out ok (or he has other signs of) I'd look into learning disabilities. I just feel something may well be up given his reaction to both home and school work.

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by sbgrace

I would have a vision processing assessment (not his 20/20 vision but things like tracking and other stuff vision therapy can address). My son is much younger but a lot of his resistance to activities was because of visual issues that we corrected with vision therapy. If that checks out ok (or he has other sings of) I'd look into learning disabilities. I just feel something may well be up given his reaction to both home and school work.

Yes - I mentioned vision skills earlier, but was in a rush and didn't think to elaborate. My son wasn't ready to read for pleasure until we found out his vision skills were off and got them cleared up with vision therapy. An article on our experience with Vision Skills has links to resources where you can find out more about the signs. Lillian

[Momma Aimee]

Originally Posted by robin4kids

So my ds age 12 has been in and out of school several times. We have never made it through a whole year of hsing. We pulled him our 1/2 through first grade. He went back in for 2-4th then we pulled him back out in 4th when we hated the teacher and he had 32 kids in his class. He went back into school 1/2 way through 5th-6th. Now we are again at a point where HE is asking to hs.

For the past 2 months we have been having a lot of difficulty getting through each day. He has been refusing to go to school at least once a week and has missed a lot of school because of it. He and 2 of my other kids go to a Catholic School. DS says he has no friends and the teachers are boring. The fact is a KNOW this to be true. There are no kids in his class that have anything in common with him. The teachers are boring. We just don't have any other choices for schools. Public are not good and charter have a waiting list. We are looking at a waldorf school, but it is very expensive.)

Also ds gets more homework than my 8th grader and 4th grader combined! This stresses him out and causes most nights to be filled with tears and yelling.

So Today he again refused to go to school. There is not much we can do when he does this. (Short of picking him up in his PJs and bringing him to school, kicking and screaming. Which we are so not doing.)

The problem with Hsing is he usually gets angry with whatever work I give and he complains about no friends. He claims that this time he will be better. He says he knows he has no friends in school and he gets more work in school.

My parents think we are being unreasonable. I already hs my 7 y/o. He has never gone to school and it is going pretty well. Is this messed up?

Back ground on ds- He is a nature loving kid. He is very smart, but struggles with reading and writing. He takes everything personally and can have a short temper. He asks for hugs from me at least 5 times a day. He loves physical activities and skate/snow boarding. He is a very special kid, that I feel is getting squashed in the Catholic school system.

Be honest I can take it.

IMO he doesn't get to choose. you and Dh choose -- either homeschool or school and he has to work the program. either way. he c as possiblean ear rewards, or losse stuff for non-compliance -- be it at home or at school. I am all for making it work as best possible for kids -- but at the end of the day they are kids.

nothing is ever perfect .. sch be learned anool sucks, but homeschooling can suck too -- stuff has to done / learned and no one is ever gonna like it all.

if you and Dh want him in school -- then in school he needs to be. no more being allowed to skip a day a week or so just cuz he deson't wanna go. heck a lot of days i don't wanna do stuff -- you do it anyway.

in all honsety I would pack him in the car in his PJs and go sit in the school lot. You may not be able to force him to dress and go in and pay attention --= but he doesn't need to be rewarded by being home.

If you feel he is better at home, then bring him home and adress his 'tude about doing work as you would any other behivior / defiance issue.

if he wants freind -- home or school -- you can allow him to earn activities with good "education behavior" be it going to school without a fight adn doing well on homework, or doing his school work at home if that is your choice -- scouts or a art club or whaterever. THAT doesn't have to depend on where he goes to school.

I personally feel that he is "pushing it" he knows you don't like his school -- that you ahve pulled him out before, and then when he fought you at home, sent him back. he also knows that if he tosses a good fit he gets to stay home -- winning as he is not at school nor is he homeschooled. I think that whatever school choice you detemin to be best educationally you inform him you will be sticking with. you can't. IMO bring him home then when he gets moody about school work at home, send him back. he is, more or less, playing you. and he is going to fall behind.

[SagMom]

Originally Posted by robin4kids

Back ground on ds- He is a nature loving kid. He is very smart, but struggles with reading and writing. He takes everything personally and can have a short temper. He asks for hugs from me at least 5 times a day. He loves physical activities and skate/snow boarding. He is a very special kid, that I feel is getting squashed in the Catholic school system.

Be honest I can take it.

He refuses to go to school. You agree that it's not the place for him. It sounds like the school discussion is old news. I'd take him out of school and focus on how to make homeschooling work for him.

I would look for loads of nature activities for him. Is there a nature center near you? Hiking trails? Classes that delve into forestry or wildlife or survival skills? I'd go to the library or bookstore and gather field guides and those Eyewitness books with nature themes (loads of color pictures, short blurbs and captions, so not a lot of heavy reading.) Does he like to listen to stories? Could you read aloud to him or get books on tape? Maybe things like "My Side Of The Mountain" or other nature-themed stories would appeal to him. If you have access to videos/netflix you could check out nature videos for him--IMAX and PBS and the Science Channel and many others have some very informative and beautiful videos available.

If reading and writing are causing him distress and are a struggle to the point where he doesn't want to work at them, then I'd take the focus off of those skills and instead provide the things that are high-interest to him. I believe that people learn best when they feel a NEED to know, or are inspired by a deep interest to know. He may not want to work on his reading, but he may begin reading if he's excited about the information in front of him.

I'd also make sure he had plenty of time for the physical activities he loves--some people just NEED to be more active than others, and if his interests are in the physical/outdoor/nature areas, then sitting still for focused "schoolwork" might be very difficult for him.

I also don't think he's too young for The Teenage Liberation Handbook (you should read it too.)

[kittie313]

Originally Posted by Momma Aimee

Cat you sound like me.

I probably am like you.................

But seriously now. I was that kid who went to public school and would fight my single dad about going so he just gave in one day a week and let me stay home. I was bored in school, I knew everything already that the teachers were teaching us and I hated the books they would assign us to read, and then going home to do a couple hours of homework to reinforce concepts I already knew was a total waste of my time. I hated it so much, and my dad wanted to keep me off his back so he let me stay home whenever I pitched a fit. If he had withdrawn me to homeschool, he would have been doing the "here's your books do your work while I'm at work then I'll look it over at night" kind of thing and I wouldn't have done any work. I have never been a self-starter. I wish now that my dad had taken the time to just make me go to school and do my homework every day, then I may have gotten the grades I was capable of instead of coasting with a C average.

Whether the OP decides to stick with the Catholic school or withdraw and homeschool, the fact is that her son is going to need to be rode hard to do his work and stay motivated. I have a feeling he's a lot like I was as a kid in that area (I was also antisocial and refused to make friends, my motto was "I hate the living")

[SagMom]

Originally Posted by kittie313

Whether the OP decides to stick with the Catholic school or withdraw and homeschool, the fact is that her son is going to need to be rode hard to do his work and stay motivated.

Or, he may just need to find his "thing" -- the subject that fires him up, the activity that inspires him to try hard, the interest that motivates him to want to learn more about it.

Learning doesn't need to be a battle.

[Momma Aimee]

Originally Posted by SagMom

Or, he may just need to find his "thing" -- the subject that fires him up, the activity that inspires him to try hard, the interest that motivates him to want to learn more about it.

Learning doesn't need to be a battle.

all learning doesn't have to be a battle -- but at some point it is going to be -- i hate math, hate it -- hate it -- and had to be forced to do any of it -- home schooled or public schooled ... it would have been the same ...

some times you jsut have to do it.

Reading fires me up -- yes at home or at school i excelled in reading .... math not so much ... not everything can be fun.

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by SagMom

He refuses to go to school. You agree that it's not the place for him. It sounds like the school discussion is old news. I'd take him out of school and focus on how to make homeschooling work for him.

I like the way you said, "focus on how to make homeschooling work for him." He may be going through a difficult period right now, but trying to see things from his perspective is going to work a lot more effectively than trying to make him conform to things that really don't work for him.

I would look for loads of nature activities for him. Is there a nature center near you? Hiking trails? Classes that delve into forestry or wildlife or survival skills? I'd go to the library or bookstore and gather field guides and those Eyewitness books with nature themes (loads of color pictures, short blurbs and captions, so not a lot of heavy reading.) Does he like to listen to stories? Could you read aloud to him or get books on tape? Maybe things like "My Side Of The Mountain" or other nature-themed stories would appeal to him. If you have access to videos/netflix you could check out nature videos for him--IMAX and PBS and the Science Channel and many others have some very informative and beautiful videos available.

If reading and writing are causing him distress and are a struggle to the point where he doesn't want to work at them, then I'd take the focus off of those skills and instead provide the things that are high-interest to him. I believe that people learn best when they feel a NEED to know, or are inspired by a deep interest to know. He may not want to work on his reading, but he may begin reading if he's excited about the information in front of him.

I'd also make sure he had plenty of time for the physical activities he loves--some people just NEED to be more active than others, and if his interests are in the physical/outdoor/nature areas, then sitting still for focused "schoolwork" might be very difficult for him.

I also don't think he's too young for The Teenage Liberation Handbook (you should read it too.)

Lillian

[ktmeyer]

I'd also consider some sensory integration issues...the wanting to be hugged alot, the choice of activities, etc suggested that to me. Also, that may be why it's hard to make friends, does he try to hug people his own age, or get very close to them?

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by Momma Aimee

all learning doesn't have to be a battle -- but at some point it is going to be

I don't think that's true. Learning has never been a battle with me, and there's nothing so far that either of my children hasn't wanted to learn. DH is pretty much the same. We all have preferences, yes, but there's nothing that's ever been a battle.

OP, it sounds like your son has some other issues. He seems not to learn well going to school or at home; nor does he have friends either place. I'd work on finding out why he has trouble with those issues because it seems that you'll continue to have these problems with building vs. home as school until you solve the other things.

[Callimom]

I agree with the others that it is time to commit to one stream or the other and make it work. I would be concerned that bouncing back and forth is sending him all kinds of mixed messages about your expectations for commitment to education, possibly about his abilities andI would guess that the inconsistency may be causing some of his difficulties.

I personally would homeschool a kid like that. However it would have to be with a contract with him. A friend of mine faced a similar problem with her slightly younger daughter. The wrote down all the reasons she wanted to homeschool and all the reasons she did not want to be in school (and then did the reverse). They met weekly to talk about what to do about the situation and to make a plan that they would both commit to. It outlined what they would expect of her and she of them in terms of facilitating an education that was acceptable to both of them (right down to weekly expectations), about what they would do to ensure social opportunities, how they would handle bumps in the road, and how long they would commit to it (they did a 1 year commitment and if there was to be a change they would go through this process again). It was a serious process and my friend said that it helped them both think through what would be needed to make it work.

I would also work very hard at helping him make connections socially. Can he try things like scouts, 4H, Junior Naturalists, Leader in Training for nature centres, working with a local naturalist or environmental group, a community garden, a wild animal rehab centre.

I disagree with the PP that learning has to be a battle, but I do think that you can set up expectations for learning and still faciliate it in a way that works for him. I agree completely with building off his interests. Can he work on nature photography skills and blog about it, or (help) run a nature program for younger homeschoolers and help prepare it? There are tonnes of citizen science opportunities - everything from backyard bird and star counts to butterfly watches, frog watches etc to get involved in. Use Journey North as a starting point. Fill your house with field guides and natural journals.

hth
Good luck with your decision.
Karen

[MamaMonica]

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[Needle in the Hay]

I wouldn't hesitate to pull him out. For your DS, school is a boring, friendless place he doesn't want to be. How much can he possibly learning in such conditions? He needs you to give him a better life and you absolutely have the ability to do that--you are not messed up.

He's coming up fast to his teen years--this is your chance to help make those years good ones for him and to keep a strong relationship with him. There are many paths to higher education, that doesn't need to be the big focus right now, though I think he'll learn more out of school than in it anyway. School can't do much for you if you hate it that much.

My aunt pulled her 15 yr old out last fall and she said he's like a different kid now. She was so torn about it and he pretty much refused to go back after having been suspended for a couple of days and now she hopes he won't choose to go back (to play a sport) as she sees how much better it is for him now. He is such a bright, sweet kid and school was not serving him well.

Best of luck to you and your DS. Fwiw I don't think he needs to be "rode hard" or any such nonsense. The poor kid needs a break and a chance to spend time exploring his interests and finding people he clicks with.

[SagMom]

Originally Posted by Momma Aimee

all learning doesn't have to be a battle -- but at some point it is going to be -- i hate math, hate it -- hate it -- and had to be forced to do any of it -- home schooled or public schooled ... it would have been the same ...

I think there are endless ways to learn. I hated math in school also, and believed I was no good at it. It wasn't until years and years after my last math class that I began to see math all around me--surprisingly, even in the things I loved to do. IF I had been introduced to mathematical thinking in a different way, I might not have grown up thinking I hated math.

I'm still learning, but now it seems as silly to me to say, "I hate math" as it does to say, "I hate food." It's so necessary, so intrinsic to life, and takes so many forms that to hate it seems impossible. I think the way our culture teaches math is a shame--there's no reason it should have taken me this long to be introduced to the fun of math.

It was really important to me that I not pass my early thinking about math (that math is dull, boring, too hard...) along to my kids.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by Momma Aimee

stuff has to done / learned and no one is ever gonna like it all.

I agree with this but I think it deserves to be looked at closely. I clean my house, I do not particularly like to (and I cannot get myself to "like to" no matter how hard I try). I simply dislike the consequences of not cleaning more than I dislike cleaning, lol. My oldest (just turned 14 ) is taking an online course. Some of it is grunt work - which he dislikes. He wants the credit, however, and likes geography and some of the structured learning so he does the grunt work. These are choices, however. I choose to clean, DS chooses to do the grunt work. The more I think about it, the more I beleive that for many people understanding that grunt work leads to their goals and willingly partake of it does not happen until adolescence. Sure, you can get younger kids to do stuff - either by making it fun, or by setting up a somewhat authoriatarian environment (you will do it because I say so), or they do it to please you/spend time with you.... but it isn't done for developmental reasons. Younger kids live very much in the now.

For the Op, the good news is your Ds may want to do work to meet his goals once he has settled in and had time to explore some interests and process things. Lots of teens start to want to do stuff - yours may too.

if you and Dh want him in school -- then in school he needs to be.

The bottom line is I agree with this. I think parents do and should decide whether their children go to school or not. Some people have an age where the kids have more say, and in some it is based on circumstances. 12 is a tricky age and I think whether the decision should rest with the child is dependant upon the maturity of the child - he is not a 15 yr old, but he isn't 6 either.

I do think, no matter the age of the child (and barring such complications as the school available being violent or no one to watch the child at home) if a child has an extreme desrie to school or Hs, that choice should be honoured. No one should live in misery - and if the school choice is making them miserable, something different does need to be explored.

In any event, some of this may be moot. It seems to me the OP has the best circumstances - a child and parent who are on the same page. Both want to HS. Go for it, OP! I would be clear that the option of going to school will not revisited, though, for at least the remainder of this year and next year. Learning to stick to something and work on issues is a good life skill - and it is is an easier one to work on at home on your own terms (not the schools). I also think it can be unfair to the rest of the family to flip flop in and out of school as it causes some stress and time-table switching.


I personally feel that he is "pushing it" he knows you don't like his school -- that you ahve pulled him out before, and then when he fought you at home, sent him back. he also knows that if he tosses a good fit he gets to stay home -- winning as he is not at school nor is he homeschooled. I think that whatever school choice you detemin to be best educationally you inform him you will be sticking with. you can't. IMO bring him home then when he gets moody about school work at home, send him back. he is, more or less, playing you. and he is going to fall behind.

Bolding mine. Heck, no he is not playing you...he is sad and confused. As per falling behind....My largely US'ed son got an 85% on his virtual geography assignment! Despite ourt highly relaxed, never psuh-it life style he pulled off an 85. So your son might not fall behind. And if he does...so what?? When he finds his motivation again, he will be capable of learning oodles of stuff in a short period.

[elizawill]

Originally Posted by SagMom

I hated math in school also, and believed I was no good at it.

i hated math in school as well. HATED it! honestly, i still don't enjoy it. that's why i majored in social work, lol.

i think we will naturally gravitate to the things we enjoy, and if we hate something - we certainly can find ways to enjoy life with less of whatever that *something* is, ykwim?

OP, a lot of what seems to be going on could be related to your son's age as well. he's probably going through puberty and is on an emotional roller coaster ride. 12 & 13 are really transitional ages that can be incredibly difficult. i don't have any advice really, but just wanted to offer support. hugs.