Having a boy, need input. Husband stuff.

[WaitingForKiddos]

I'm kinda writing out loud here so this might read all over the place..

First, we're having a boy!

Dh was born in '83 and despite having a crunchy, and great, mom he (and his bro) were circed. I have no idea how it was done. I know they were delivered at a birthcenter in a small hospital and she was discharged after about 8 hours so I'm guessing it was at the ped's office. Mil and I are really close and I really don't think she's going to have issue with us not circig. Fil might but he's not as crunchy as mil and I are and we gently correct him with no issue.

Dh told me, after watching Penn and Telller's circ episode, 'my son will be cut'. Now this was right when we had started dating and he wasn't exposed to anything besides babies are born in hospitals, vax are good, etc. He's now a huge midwife and out of hospital birth supporter and he questions vax. This was through my gentle, kinda, guidance. Our first pregnancy was a girl so circ was never brought up. Dh or I have any sexual difficulties due to circ.

A few weeks ago we found out that we're having a boy. (again, !!!) as we ate lunch after the scan dh says 'we'll need to decide if he's going to be cut.'
I'm not wanting to circ (and my bottom line is that this kid isn't going to be exposed to anything with a risk of death). So I just said 'you know, I don't want him hurt. It will hurt.' then I kinda joked that he doesn't even like me cutting the cats nails because it might hurt him. We both nodded and then went back to talking about other baby things.

At my last midwife visit we discussed circ. She's against it but had her oldest circed due to not knowing better. She told me that a least here in ca insurance co's aren't covering it (I knew) and that it's about 800 bucks to be done (with pregnancy #1 the dr's office gave us a circ paper and they charged 200 so perhaps the 800 is a uriologist?) I came home and told dh what I was told. He seemed receptive but didn't comment.


So...

I'm wanting to not be The Decision Maker. I tend to come across as 'we ARE doing this.' and I know I need to approach things with dh being able to give input. If for no other reason than because I love the guy and he deserves a
voice. And really he's not the type to come at things without logic so it's safe to offer him a voice. He's an engineer and is very much into thinking things out. I suspect that presenting him with a video of a circ and a list of complications will make him question himself.

I didn't like the Penn and Teller....to me the anticirc folks seemed a little too passionate....not that there's anything wrong with that it just came on hard. Then the restored guy at the end, to me, made me think of him as another wacky person normally on BS, not a normal guy who happend to restore.

I've seen the links from nocirc and the docs against circ...I agree with their stance but if I was needing to be convinced of something I think an obviously swayed (even if the sway was into reality) might make me question the source.

We're having a birthcenter birth and not vaxing so this baby has no reason to be in a ped's office until it's a bit older. Like I said mw is against it and any ped we see must be friendly to intact and no-vax folks. I don't imagine any of healthcare team pushing it, and I do see them being vocal against it.

With all that I'm looking for input as to when/how to approach this. I'm not planning on saying anything until I hit 24 weeks because both he and I have a hard time really planning stuff for this baby due to our previous loss.

Help?

[tutucrazy]

Well, it seems to me that you already know there are zero health benefits to circumcising, but do you know about many benefits of keeping a child intact? Do you know how the foreskin works and why it is there? These are the things that parents don't often question. Here is a very medical description of the foreskin and how it works. Perhaps this video will give you a better idea of why it is worth leaving your son intact:

http://espanol.video.yahoo.com/watch/163489/774135

These are a few good sites you might not have seen:
http://www.circinfosite.com/index.html
http://circumcisiondecisionmaker.com/
www.intactamerica.org
www.circumstitions.com

Your hubby might have a hard time accepting that something functional was removed from his body. He has never owned a foreskin so it will be hard for him to understand what he is missing. Read this but don't show him this one:
http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

[tammylsmith]

We're having a boy too. Due this April. It was a very contentious issue between dh and I at first that fueled a major fight. He has come a long way since then. I'm not pushing it on him, but on his own, he did look into research and came to me one day, kind of scratching his head and said "wow, there really is not medical reason for this, is there?" I was proud of him for stating that out loud but I didn't press the issue. When I came at him with too much info ESPECIALLY the lasting sexual side effects, he shut down. That is too sensitive a subject, and too subjective as well, since both he and I are happy with how he is. I didn't like Penn and Teller either. The humor just wasn't our style, and if something sounds too intactivist-y, then he, like your dh, shuts it out. I got very far with pointing out how hard it would be for me to even imagine the pain for our precious little bundle. That made dh question things. Also, the issue of personal choice of what to do with one's own body. Ask him to watch a circ video, knowing that the operation is medically unnecessary. See what he says after that. I haven't even had to do the video thing with my dh yet. I don't think I could watch! My approach, though we haven't gotten to the big day yet, seems to work with my dh so far. He has softened on the issue enough that walls don't come up right away (as long as we keep each conversation short and to the point... give a little info or a "Hey hon, I was thinking about this.." and then let him mull it over on his own). I try to keep it light hearted and short, or at least consciously keep the lecturing tone out and try to make it more of something where he and I are discussing the idea. What he and I do agree on now is that the operation is a cosmetic one, and my point is why do unnecessary surgery? (my dh avoided getting his wisdom teeth out until he was in agony because he hates surgery) My dh equates circ with ear piercing. It isn't nearly the same thing, but if it helps him inch in the right direction, or at least get comfortable enough to leave the issue alone, then I'll take it. I also remind him that it is an entirely reversible decision, and if our ds has different opinions about his own foreskin, then we will listen to him. Just try to keep it short, sweet and bite-sized, and encourage him to look around for info on his own. Dig in on the inside, and make yourself a rock that will not be moved... but don't let him know that part. Outwardly, be sure to aknowledge his very real feeilngs about teh issue. Good luck!

[jess_paez]

i am not really familiar with the different sites regarding no-circ, because having an intact husband it just became a no-brainer to not circ, but in the beginning i did have a few questions. when my husband and i were becoming intimate in the beginning i asked him questions about his experience. he explained to me that because he's from mexico, circ is not routine over there. i mentioned the locker room, he said..."At my highschool, we didn't shower together." So-there went that concern, which to me now means nothing, but at the time i remember that being a concern for most women when thinking about their baby boys. I also asked him about cleaning, but he said, "the foreskin should not be retracted until it's ready and it's not really possible for anything to get underneath. And the whole smell thing? With a daily shower like most men/women do-there is no smell whatsoever.
i cannot imagine circing a baby now that i have been with an intact man. everything is better. i can't really talk about feeling per se, because i guess it 'feels' the same, but foreplay is more fun (no lubrication, ect). No joke-dh and i had a really rough patch after we lost our daughter and almost separated, i remember thinking, "Dang it, I will never find a partner in the US that is intact again!" I literally mourned it.
i hope that helps somehow as a womens point of view as an adult at least.

[jess_paez]

oh and how to approach it? i don't know, but as a mother i have this huge animalistic instinct to protect the baby at all costs. in a situation such as this, i would not back down, i would give the facts which are so strong and kind of a 'no-brainer' and let him know that while i value his opinion, i value my sons right to choose what happens with his body more. i wouldn't say that of course but that would be in the back of my mind. i would answer his questions (i'm sure he'll have a couple regarding locker room, ect) and hope that my answers would be enough to come to a successful agreement, and if it didn't maybe at least he would agree to letting your son decide for himself when he is of age to do as he wishes.
maybe because soon enough you'll be 24 weeks you could say, "pheww! we did it, but now we have another issue to overcome...the topic of circ..." i can't wait for you to turn 24 weeks, i'm so excited for you!!

[ammiga]

It's my first post on this board! But I read it a lot

I understand exactly what you are going through. I was in the same boat with dh. I do all of the research, and dh pretty much takes my word for it. But he likes to do some research too and help with the decisions. He did this with vaxes too... was totally in favor of them, I gave him some research, now he is completely opposed.

We don't know the gender of our baby for sure, I had a 15 week u/s and the radiologist said it could go either way, but she was leaning towards boy. We're not having any more u/s, so this baby will be a surprise!

Anyway, after reading this board for the last few months, I decided that I was completely opposed to circ'ing if our LO turns out to be a boy. This is a really big deal in our family. I gently approached the subject with dh, and he pretty much let me know that if we had a boy, he would be circ'd.

What worked with getting dh to come around was not presenting him with a bunch of the reasons that I felt that our potential ds should not be circ'd, but asking dh why he thought ds should be. Then I came to this board and searched threads to find the information I was looking for that back up why circing wasn't necessary for dh's reasons.

It didn't take long to convince dh (thank goodness!), but presenting him with logical and non-inflammatory facts that addressed his concerns were what got him to come to his own decision.

Good luck! The people on this board are very helpful and full of information (even when they don't they are being "stalked" and helping out).

[bandgeek]

Well it sounds like he's not arguing with you and that's great! I understand wanting to have him completely on board and feel the same way you do about it, but sometimes that doesn't happen, or doesn't happen until later. I had to put my foot down with my kids' dad and only months later was he truly ok with it and then several years later he actually THANKED me for standing up to him.

It sounds like your husband might be having a hard time with his own feelings about what happened to him and might be feeling a little insecure. Maybe you should gently tell him that it truly has nothing to do with him and you love him the way he is. You just want your son to have the decision to himself and if he chooses circ later, you'll be fine with that too. Tell him it's not about what you find sexy or attractive, it's simply about giving your son the choice.

[eepster]

While I understand your desire for your DH to specifically give you the thumbs up on not circ'ing, I think you may need to simply accept his silent agreement. It is very very hard for many circ'd men to face that maybe being intact is better. He may just prefer not to really think about the subject too much. This article might help you understand how hard this subject can be for some men.

If he really wanted to discuss this he has had that opportunity. I think he is remaining silent on th subject b/c part of him agrees with you, but there is another part that is making it too difficult to put his voice into that agreement.

I also understand that you want him to be involved in parental decision, but is this really a parental decision? Parents get to decide all kinds of things for there children, what color to paint the nursery, what to dress the baby in, where to give birth, etc. However, there are some things that we generally see as outside of a parents right to choose. Permanent body modification normally fall into this category. It's not like you soliciting your DH opinion about whether or not you should get the baby cool tattoos or if you should get his toes amputated? If you just stop looking at this as a decision you made and start looking at it as simply not doing some wacky cosmetic surgery, then it's easier not to need to both be 100% on board with not doing it.

Leave the subject alone for now as settled that you won't circ and let him bring it back up if he wants to.

[japonica]

eepster, thanks for posting the link to that article. It gave me lots of think about...

Cindy...first I'm so sorry for your loss. Second, congrats on your son and there's lots of great advice here. Just go easy, slowly. I know in our case, my DH mentioned he wanted him circed, just because of the old "tradition" card in their side of the family. But I knew in my heart, I would NEVER let that happen, so it was up to me to gently negotiate our way to that eventuality without making him feel like he didn't have a say or it was all my decision or that I loved him any less (since keeping our son intact was a big issue for me).

We would talk a bit, let it drop. Go back to it. But no big arguments or anything. Eventually, he said it didn't matter...and I do believe that in some ways. Of course on some level, I'm sure it does matter to him, but not enough to pay extra money, cause his son pain, and drive a big wedge between us. He loves his son the way he is and that's all there is to it.

I can see it's still an issue for him now. I mentioned that my friend had her son circed and he was non-committal about it, "Oh, well, their choice, people do different things," and then dropped the conversation. So, it's still not an easy topic for discussion here.

[Ann-Marita]

Originally Posted by WaitingForKiddos

I'm wanting to not be The Decision Maker.

You are not the Decision Maker. You are leaving the decision up to the ONLY person whose opinion matters - your son.

You aren't saying "He WILL be intact," you are saying "HE gets to choose."

[Yulia_R]

Originally Posted by Ann-Marita

You are not the Decision Maker. You are leaving the decision up to the ONLY person whose opinion matters - your son.

You aren't saying "He WILL be intact," you are saying "HE gets to choose."

exactly!

[WaitingForKiddos]

Originally Posted by tutucrazy

Well, it seems to me that you already know there are zero health benefits to circumcising, but do you know about many benefits of keeping a child intact? .......

Your hubby might have a hard time accepting that something functional was removed from his body. He has never owned a foreskin so it will be hard for him to understand what he is missing. Read this but don't show him this one:
http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

Oh I totally do! Foreskin function makes complete sense. I really like the link. And it's right on....I can see how part of this, no matter how hard I try to be gentle, addresses Dh's penis. I'm trying to present a 'if the kid ends up wanting to match you I've got no problem with it....when it's the kid's choice.' So it's not so much 'circ makes penises bad' but rather 'the penises owner gets to choose'.

Tammy, yes, yes and yes to your post. Dh needs to be approached about things in a way that lets him process it. For me, I'd be fine with someone saying "we are sitting here and discussing _____and you have to give me your opnion because we're making a choice at the end of this conversation." I'm okay forming opinions on the fly like that. Dh has yet to disagree with the big things (midwife, birthcenter, vax, me staying home...etc' Some things I had to lead him into some things were a given with him. When we 'interviewed' (in quotes because in my mind I'd already hired them) it really made it safe and acceptable to see first hand that these women are skilled at their trade. I think that a circ video will freak him out. I watched one on youtube that used hemostats that literally left a dorsal line of biting indentations. I don't think DH has that side of the picture in his head. A few years back Dh had a procedure done to his lungs. Before he went in we both googled it so as to get a play by play what to expect. I think that even if we were to both want to circ we'd end up seeing a video before hand. I can't imagine being okay with it after seeing the videos. So it gives me a good way to present it...'oh I wanted to see what getting the baby cut is like so I found this on youtube....it's pretty crazy'. I can't see Dh being okay with it.

Jess good to see you here. See i don't think he's going to be a big myth believer. I'm feeling that his argument is going to be 'I want my kid to look like me because it's how it is.' If he tried to bring up any silly smells thing I'd remind him of vaginas and their reputation! I do wish that Dh wasn't circed. Partly because it kills me to think of him as a baby....never put down, always nursed, never left to cry....suddenly facing such trauma. And partly because I know it would make some sex stuff, me being on pelvic rest IYKWIM, way easier and not like..."where's the lube again?" I think I'm creating my arguments for different myths in my head so I can formulate them verbally with grace. Part of me isn't even willing to discuss so many of the myths with anyone pro-circ. If Dh came at me with anything like that I think I'd ask him about his sudden lack of non-emotional processing before telling him he was FOS for thinking some future woman is going to hate his penis. I'm totally going to wait for the 24 weeks (5 weeks away! ) By that time I'll soon be having more midwife visits that I want him to go to so he can get comfortable with the Birth Center's layout and feel. I plan on asking MW about circ when he's there....knowing that she's gentle with her facts and that Dh trusts her with my life, and that he knows she has nothing to gain. Dh gets second opinions before he gets a tooth filled becasue 'they are wanting to do a filling becasue that's how they make money' so I think that he'll see the reason why a ped/ob may perform them....$.

Originally Posted by ammiga

I understand exactly what you are going through. I was in the same boat with dh. I do all of the research, and dh pretty much takes my word for it. But he likes to do some research too and help with the decisions. He did this with vaxes too... was totally in favor of them, I gave him some research, now he is completely opposed

What worked with getting dh to come around was not presenting him with a bunch of the reasons that I felt that our potential ds should not be circ'd, but asking dh why he thought ds should be.

Totaly my Dh. Before I got pregnant it was "My baby willbe born in a hospital!" and now it's the opposite. to get him to change his mind all I did was present midwives as an option and went at it like I was okay with a hospital birth but that I felt a MW would offer more benifits. Realisticly I know that I'm going to be doing more diaper changes, I'd be taking care of the circ, I'd be soothing a baby that's refusing to nurse.....Dh knows this too. So I'm also thinking of the argument 'I'm not taking care of a wound and a baby that's hurting and won't do his normal baby stuff anymore.' To combine that with making Dh give reasons as to why it needs to be done I think will end up looking like I'm having to pick up the pieces when the whole thing wasn't something I was the one pushing for. I want it too look like a PITA that he's demanding and that I have to deal with.

Originally Posted by bandgeek

Well it sounds like he's not arguing with you and that's great! I understand wanting to have him completely on board and feel the same way you do about it, but sometimes that doesn't happen, or doesn't happen until later. I had to put my foot down with my kids' dad and only months later was he truly ok with it and then several years later he actually THANKED me for standing up to him.

It sounds like your husband might be having a hard time with his own feelings about what happened to him and might be feeling a little insecure. Maybe you should gently tell him that it truly has nothing to do with him and you love him the way he is. You just want your son to have the decision to himself and if he chooses circ later, you'll be fine with that too. Tell him it's not about what you find sexy or attractive, it's simply about giving your son the choice.

Exactly! And it's just that I want him to get to a point of not caring. I don't need him to be against it. I really think that the idaea of letting our son choose for himself will work. It's not confrontational and not about Dh's penis.

Originally Posted by japonica

Cindy...first I'm so sorry for your loss. Second, congrats on your son and there's lots of great advice here. Just go easy, slowly. I know in our case, my DH mentioned he wanted him circed, just because of the old "tradition" card in their side of the family. But I knew in my heart, I would NEVER let that happen, so it was up to me to gently negotiate our way to that eventuality without making him feel like he didn't have a say or it was all my decision or that I loved him any less (since keeping our son intact was a big issue for me).

We would talk a bit, let it drop. Go back to it. But no big arguments or anything. Eventually, he said it didn't matter...and I do believe that in some ways. Of course on some level, I'm sure it does matter to him, but not enough to pay extra money, cause his son pain, and drive a big wedge between us. He loves his son the way he is and that's all there is to it.

I can see it's still an issue for him now. I mentioned that my friend had her son circed and he was non-committal about it, "Oh, well, their choice, people do different things," and then dropped the conversation. So, it's still not an easy topic for discussion here.

Thank you.

I see Dh being like this. And I think that really once this baby is born....or even when I get to a safer point in the pregnancy and we suddenly see that we're going to get a take-home baby this time...that he's going be as protective as I am. In some ways I think pregnancy isn't quite real for Dh/Dps. Once the baby is here it's not just the idea of a baby or me being pregnant.

Originally Posted by Ann-Marita

You are not the Decision Maker. You are leaving the decision up to the ONLY person whose opinion matters - your son.

You aren't saying "He WILL be intact," you are saying "HE gets to choose."

Yup!




So, with all that replied back to, I'm just leaving it be for a few more weeks. I have so much information and 'ammo' that I feel really secure. I know what the bottom line is and that there's no way I'm consenting to it so

thank you all so much for the replies! I'm sure I'll be back when Dh and I get the discussion/lack of discussion going!

[bugmenot]

Originally Posted by WaitingForKiddos

Dh told me, after watching Penn and Telller's circ episode, 'my son will be cut'.

"Cut" is a word that i'm starting not to like. That word almost justifies the "barbaric-ness" of the situation and makes it seem less harmful than it really is.

That this kid isn't going to be exposed to anything with a risk of death).

I understand your point, but I disagree with your wording. "Anything with a risk of death" is almost everything you'll do with him. There is a "risk of death" when you put him in the car and drive around town. There's a "risk of death" when you give him medicine when he gets sick.

The "risk of death" of circ is very very low. Yes, it exists, but there is a higher "risk of death" with non-circ activities.

[claddaghmom]

I wonder if you are worrying a bit much? It sounds like he agrees but doesn't want to go into it. From other responses I have heard, husbands by this time would have gotten into a huge fight, slept on the couch and stopped talking by now.

[Super Pickle]

I agree with claddaghmom.

Your DH sounds like he is okay with not circumcising, if that is your preference.

Don't try to get him to say that it's his preference, too. He doesn't want to imply that he's accusing his parents of doing anything wrong, and he's probably happy the way he is.

It sounds like he is agreeable to bringing home the whole baby. Great! I'd say be grateful and don't push it. Try not to talk about it much.

[Arduinna]

I agree with the others, it sounds like he is giving you silent assent to intactness. But as an informed consent person myself, I totally understand the desire to have him verbally express his opinion. LOL

[moxygirl]

Originally Posted by jess_paez

oh and how to approach it? i don't know, but as a mother i have this huge animalistic instinct to protect the baby at all costs. in a situation such as this, i would not back down, i would give the facts which are so strong and kind of a 'no-brainer' and let him know that while i value his opinion, i value my sons right to choose what happens with his body more. i wouldn't say that of course but that would be in the back of my mind. i would answer his questions (i'm sure he'll have a couple regarding locker room, ect) and hope that my answers would be enough to come to a successful agreement, and if it didn't maybe at least he would agree to letting your son decide for himself when he is of age to do as he wishes.

(I didn't read all the posts.) The above is what I did, except I DID end up having to come out and tell my husband I valued my son's right to choose over DH's opinion. Actually, what I said was "my son will be subjected to genital mutilation over my dead body". Um, not the best wording perhaps. And yes my husband has issues with the whole thought of him being circed vs son being intact. Even AFTER he did the research and realized there was absolutely NO medical reason to circ he STILL wanted to. And to this day he thinks there's no problem with it. Any future sons will still remain intact, according to my say. And I am resigned to the fact that DH may never see it from my point of view.

Just preparing you that you may have to take a firm die-hard stand against circ.

For the record, DH doesn't have a problem with DS at all, even during diaper changes.
Congrats on having a boy! They're wonderful.

Edited, again, to add that I should have been more sensitive from the get-go that this would be a difficult subject. I should have been more clear with DH that I didn't value him less because he's circed or think his parents are horrible people for agreeing to it.