? regarding canons of the 3rd ecumenical council

[Arduinna]

I came across this on Orthodox wiki when I was looking for additional info regarding the filioque.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Filioque

The interpolation of the Filioque into the Creed is seen by Eastern Orthodox a violation of the canons of the Third Ecumenical Council in 431, which forbade and anathematized any additions to the Creed, a prohibition which was reiterated at the Eighth Ecumenical Council in 879-880.


ok so after doing an internet search I came across this site

http://www.intratext.com/X/ENG0835.HTM

But I can't seem to find the text of the prohibition. Admittedly I have a lot of trouble reading the link due to my vision and all those darned hyper links included.

So does anyone have a source that lists the prohibition?

[Tradd]

How about this - it seems to be it:

http://www.monachos.net/content/patr...inition-nicaea

1. It is not permitted to produce or write or compose any other creed except the one which was defined by the holy fathers who were gathered together in the holy Spirit at Nicaea.

2.Any who dare to compose or bring forth or produce another creed for the benefit of those who wish to turn from Hellenism or Judaism or some other heresy to the knowledge of the truth, if they are bishops or clerics they should be deprived of their respective charges and if they are laymen they are to be anathematised.

And http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.x.i.html

ETA: I spent some time going through the Third Ecumenical Council entry on CCEL and found the exact text in the Canons, although it's in more archaic English (the above is easier to understand) from when it was originally translated into English in the late 19th Century in the Nicene/Post-Nicene Fathers series.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.x.xvi.x.html

Originally Posted by Arduinna

I came across this on Orthodox wiki when I was looking for additional info regarding the filioque.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Filioque

The interpolation of the Filioque into the Creed is seen by Eastern Orthodox a violation of the canons of the Third Ecumenical Council in 431, which forbade and anathematized any additions to the Creed, a prohibition which was reiterated at the Eighth Ecumenical Council in 879-880.


ok so after doing an internet search I came across this site

http://www.intratext.com/X/ENG0835.HTM

But I can't seem to find the text of the prohibition. Admittedly I have a lot of trouble reading the link due to my vision and all those darned hyper links included.

So does anyone have a source that lists the prohibition?

[Tradd]

FYI...that "Eighth Ecumenical Council" is not recognized as such by the Orthodox. The Seventh Ecumenical Council in 787 is the last recognized by the Orthodox.

[Arduinna]

Yes, that is why I only asked about the canons of the third. Thanks for the links, I'll check those and post back.

Although, now it has me wondering who exactly participated in the 8th and why they reiterated that there be no changes also. I'll check that later.

[Arduinna]

Ok, those links were really helpful thanks.

Back to the whole 8th ecumenical/4th council of Constantinople, I got this off orthodox wiki http://orthodoxwiki.org/Eighth_Ecumenical_Council

This council is not regarded as ecumenical by all Orthodox Christians, but some major voices in the Orthodox world do so ( I clipped to stay within copywrite limits)

Further, the Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs refers explicitly to the "Eighth Ecumenical Council" regarding the synod of 879-880 and was signed by the patriarchs of Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch, and Alexandria as well as the Holy Synods of the first three.

I don't know, I don't know a lot about it. I did find it interesting that they reiterated what was already in the 3rd EC regarding the Creed.

[Arduinna]

Tradd, can you recommend a good book on the topic of the ecumenical councils in general, I'm looking for one that would include background history of the time of each council, who participated and what was covered plus the politics of the time. I've read some on them but I want something more detailed and focused just on that.

[Arduinna]

Ok I was doing more research and came across this tidbit from one of your links.

http://www.monachos.net/content/patr...esus-celestine


Council of Ephesus, 431: Synodical epistle to pope Celestine of Rome

NOTE: This letter, sent to Pope Celestine of Rome at the close of the Third Ecumenical Council (Ephesus, AD 431) by the holy Fathers of that Council, summarises the main activities of the Council for the Roman bishop (who had not been in attendance himself), and thus serves as a summary memorandum of the Council as a whole.


ok so Pope Celestine didn't even attend the council.

Wasn't there a generally accepted belief that the Holy Spirit was present at the councils to guide them?

I'm trying to figure out how to reconcile the concepts of Papal Infallibility, the councils being guided by the Holy Spirit and their prohibitions against changing the creed, the later filioque and the fact that Pope Celestine wasn't even present at the council.

I'm not even sure where to start. I thought I had this topic laid to rest but some questions resurfaced when I was discussing the schism with dh and now none of it makes any sense.

ugh, I should just go to bed and worry about this tomorrow LOL

[mamabadger]

Originally Posted by Arduinna

I'm trying to figure out how to reconcile the concepts of Papal Infallibility, the councils being guided by the Holy Spirit and their prohibitions against changing the creed, the later filioque and the fact that Pope Celestine wasn't even present at the council.

To complicate things even more, not all Popes defended the Filioque. Leo III opposed it, and had the original (non-Filioque) Creed engraved on silver tablets, one in Greek and one in Latin, and hung in the Basilica of St. Peter. The text of the Creed was followed by the anathema against those who change the creed, and the statement that he, Leo, had placed the tablets there in the defense of the true faith.

[Bluegoat]

Sometimes i think that they were really talking past each other rather than disagreeing with regard to the issue, as seems to have happened so often with the Western and Eastern Church.

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by Arduinna

Tradd, can you recommend a good book on the topic of the ecumenical councils in general, I'm looking for one that would include background history of the time of each council, who participated and what was covered plus the politics of the time. I've read some on them but I want something more detailed and focused just on that.

The First Seven Ecumenical Councils: Their History and Theology, by Leo Donald Davis

http://www.amazon.com/First-Seven-Ec...7621008&sr=8-1

I've read this several times. Written by a Catholic priest, it's pretty much the only one in English that I've come across. The person who recommended it was an Orthodox deacon (in a podcast on the seven councils).

[Arduinna]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

To complicate things even more, not all Popes defended the Filioque. Leo III opposed it, and had the original (non-Filioque) Creed engraved on silver tablets, one in Greek and one in Latin, and hung in the Basilica of St. Peter. The text of the Creed was followed by the anathema against those who change the creed, and the statement that he, Leo, had placed the tablets there in the defense of the true faith.

Right, I remember reading that too.

I think the step for me is to figure this out is first to understand how the councils viewed their works. I haven't read all the documents so this is somewhat preliminary but my first question is:

1 Why are the claims of the council to be believed? What and who is their authority?

It seems that the councils believed they were under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, so the Holy Spirit is the authority?

eh, I just woke up I need a little more time to clear my head and formulate more questions but I don't want to lose this so I;ll just post this now and come back later.

Originally Posted by Tradd

The First Seven Ecumenical Councils: Their History and Theology, by Leo Donald Davis

http://www.amazon.com/First-Seven-Ec...7621008&sr=8-1

I've read this several times. Written by a Catholic priest, it's pretty much the only one in English that I've come across. The person who recommended it was an Orthodox deacon (in a podcast on the seven councils).

Thank you.

[Tradd]

This might help some. I'm at work without my books, but I've got Metropolitan Kallistos Ware's The Orthodox Church (this is pretty much the definitive intro to Orthodoxy in English) on my Kindle, I can't give page references, only chapter.

This first is from Chapter 10 on "Holy Tradition: The Source of the Orthodox Faith":

"The doctrinal definitions of an Ecumenical Council are infallible. Thus in the eyes of the Orthodox Church, the statements of faith put out by the seven councils possess, along with the Bible, an abiding and irrevocable authority."

A bit later in the chapter, Ware writes that the doctrinal definitions of an EC "cannot be revised or corrected, but must be accepted in their entirety."

The acceptance of the decisions of local councils by the Orthodox Church has been selective.

And from Chapter 11 on "The Church of God":

"This idea of the Church as an icon of the Trinity also helps us to understand the Orthodox emphasis upon councils. A council is an expression of the Trinitarian nature of the Church. The mystery of unity in diversity according to the image of the Trinity can be seen in action, as the many bishops assembled in council freely reach a common mind under the guidance of the Spirit," Ware writes.

[Arduinna]

Funny that you quoted that, after I logged off I was reading my copy of The Orthodox Church and read chapters 10 and 11.

Now I'm contemplating the Orthodox definition and description of the trinity compared to the Catholic one. Am understanding the filioque issue much better but it's given me a lot to think about.

[lilyka]

:

[Arduinna]

The part that is getting me really thinking is on page 211 ( chapter 11, God in the trinity section 4)

The distinctive characteristic of the first person of the Trinity is is Fatherhood. He is unbegotten, having His source and origin solely to himself and not in any other person. The distincitive characteristics of the second person is Sonship: although equal to the Father and coeternal with Him, He is not unbegotten and sourceless, but has His source in the Father, from who he is begotten or born from all eternity- "before all ages" as the Creed says.

The distincitve characteristic of the third person is Procession: like the Son, he has his source and origin in the Father; but his relationship to the Father is different from that of the Son, since he is not begotten but from all eternity he proceeds from the Father.

and further on page 212

In the same way a firm distinction must be drawn between the eternal procession of the Holy Spirit and the temporal mission, the sending of the Holy Spirit to the world: the one concerns the relations existing from all eternity within the Godhead, the other concerns the relation of God to creation.


Futher explained on 213-214


I hadn't heard the Trinity explained that way before. It really maeks sense.

[Arduinna]

Ok so I spent the rest of today reading more in The Orthodox Church book with dh, contrasted and compared that with Catholic teachings. We went back over the filioque but also read about the Trinity and some of the following chapters regarding original sin and the Church and God- the body of Christ sections. We both have come to the conclusion that we want to start attending divine liturgy at the local Greek Orthodox Church.

We have been having catechism instruction with our Catholic priest with the intention of being baptized and confirmed. It's funny how one simple question my dh asked me lead down this rabbit hole LOL. I also noticed when I searched here for my previous topics on papal infallibility and the filioque that Tradd had suggested that I read that section of the Orthodox Church book on the Trinity but I never did because at the time I just accepted the filioque. But reading the section today, introduced so many aspects of this I couldn't have thought of on my own. Very enlightening. We both understand the Trinity in a much more clear way after reading that.


Now he is asking me for more books we should read. I do have the The Orthodox Way, bought at the same time as the Orthodox Church book but I never could really understand it back when I bought it, probably because I didn't have much understanding of Christianity. I'll have to try and read it again now. I got a copy of The First Seven Ecumenical Councils ( yea for Amazon Prime) so I have that to read. I think I need something more on liturgy and icons and prayers. Any other suggestions greatly appreciated. I'm thinking the Orthodox Study Bible too.

[Tradd]

Glad those resources were helpful. I'm on my iPhone early to church for Presanctified tonight, but defintely get the Orthodox Study Bible. Will go through my books when I'm home later and give you some suggestions. Just set you a pm.

I grew up Catholic and had issues with some of the things you mention , as well as others. Have to say you must have done some heavy duty thinking today! My jaw just about hit the floor and I gasped, causing my priest to look at me weird as he walked by.

[Arduinna]

When I read that desciption of the Trinity that I posted above, it pretty much sealed it for me right there. Had a huge light bulb moment. I was hoping that dh would have the same reaction, when he read it when he got home from work. I'm so thankful he did, don't want to think about the possibilities if he hadn't.

[Tradd]

Yes, read The Orthodox Way.

I'm going to give you my favorite books:

The Living God: A Catechism of the Christian Faith (SVS Press), 2 vol set

The Incarnate God: Feasts of Jesus Christ and the Virgin Mary (SVS Press), 2 vol set

These two above combine Scripture, iconography, hymns/liturgical texts into a lovely catechism. It also pulls in the OT, as well as the NT, so you get a wonderful continuity. Not dry. I love these books, especially the illustrations in the second set (the priest who did the charcoal drawings in the second set also is doing the iconography in my parish's newish church). Good for adults/individual study, as well as parents teaching their own children.

Year of Grace of the Lord, by a Monk of the Eastern Church (SVS Press) - goes through the Church year with short reflections on the Sunday/feast day readings, major saints days, etc. Great walk through Church year.

Great Lent: Journey to Pascha, by Fr. Alexander Schmemann (SVS Press). Fr. Alexander was dean of SVS (St. Vladimir's Seminary) for about 20 years. He was the very beloved teacher of my own parish priest. Best intro *hands down* on Great Lent in English.

For the Life of the World: Orthodoxy and Sacraments by Fr. Alexander Schmemann (SVS Press). Excellent intro to sacraments

Theology of the Icon by Leonid Ouspensky (SVS Press), 2 vol set. History of the icon in Orthodoxy, the iconoclast controversy, etc.

The Orthodox Study Bible (the complete one, not just the NT & Psalms).

The Orthodox Faith, by Fr. Thomas Hopko, available as books or on the OCA website:
http://www.oca.org/OCorthfaith.asp?SID=2

The Orthodox Veneration of Mary, the Birth-Giver of God, by St. John (Maximovitch) of Shanghai and San Francisco:

http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/library...ever_virginity

Let Us Attend: A Journey through the Orthodox Divine Liturgy, by Fr. Lawrence Farley (Conciliar Press)

Way of the Ascetics by Tito Colliander (SVS Press). Short intro to the Orthodox ascetical tradition. My adult ed class is working on this for this Great Lent.

This is interesting - a history of Orthodoxy in North America:
http://www.oca.org/MVorthchristiansn...ID=1&Chap=OCNA

Prayer book:

Orthodox Daily Prayers (STS Press). This the one I use.
http://www.stspress.com/detail.aspx?ID=3046

Something similar online to get you started:
http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/prayerbook/

For the daily Scripture readings, as well as saints of the day and links to their lives:
http://www.oca.org/Reading.asp?SID=25

Saints' lives:
http://www.westsrbdio.org/prolog/my.html

You can get a lot of these books on Amazon. Also any parish you visit will likely have a book corner where there will be books/icons for sale.

These books are all beginner friendly.

[Arduinna]

LOL ok that is a list.

I'll look them up in the morning. I got the kindle edition of the Orthodox Study Bible as the print edition on Amazon is temporarily out of stock apparently. Was on the publishers site and the red leather edition is drool worthy.

I guess since we both have iphones I can ask you if there are any orthodox apps you like?