Help, please! Potty pause - need a bullet, either magic or to shoot myself

[kcparker]

X-posted from Parenting, but Sapphire_Chan suggested posting here also, so I am.

At 31 months (that's over 2 1/2 years old), my son STILL has potty accidents just about every day, and we have tried it ALL - switching from diapers to undies, timers and going by the clock, asking if he needs to go or not, telling him "let's go, it's potty time" instead of asking (because the answer is always NO), totally backing off and letting him be in control (unmitigated pee pee disaster because he just doesn't care about being wet, pleasing us, or being independent), giving him responsibility for putting on new pants and cleaning up any pee that leaks onto the floor, lectures (yes, mama has HAD IT with pee on the carpet and couch when there's a potty sitting two feet from his tush), chiropractic adjustments (worked great at first, but we were back to baseline by the third adjustment), eliminating dairy and wheat from the diet for a few weeks. Nothing has gotten him over the hump.

I am so angry at my son right now that I don't want to make eye contact with him, don't want to nurse him, don't want him sitting on my lap or going onto the carpet or furniture in our house. We practiced EC with him from birth, and he's old enough now that he can talk and understand us, and he KNOWS where pee is supposed to go. He just doesn't seem to give a rat's patootie about actually getting off HIS patootie to move the short distance from his current location to any of the potty receptacles we have in the house (bathroom, baby bjorn potty, large yogurt buckets). We have been stalled out on pottying for the last 6 months. Can anybody who has successfully potty trained a boy in less than three years tell me, what the h3!! is the secret?

I know, most people will say this is MY problem, but it's gross - peeing in your pants is gross, and peeing on the carpet makes the house smell gross, and this is a kid who can make his own PB&J sandwiches, follow directions for 50 minutes at a children's yoga class, and sit for 90 minutes straight drawing or playing with blocks - he's not dumb, and I would like to believe that kids are not naturally lazy.

Some days are great and he is dry all day, but it feels like a minor miracle. Once in awhile, he actually takes himself to the potty and my jaw falls on the ground. I am at my wit's end and just want him to be a little bit responsible for himself - is this an unreasonable expectation? He likes a lot of babying - likes to be held, still nurses, asks us to feed him like a baby bird sometimes, still needs help getting dressed. I do recognize that he's still a little guy, but I think most kids should be potty trained by this point in their lives (I know not everyone agrees with this).

If you have suggestions, please hold forth!

[jenrett]

I don't have any advice, but I hope someone chimes in, and I wanted to say good luck and I hope you work something out!

[hrsmom]

Hi- One of the mamas who posts here and used to live where EC is regularly practiced said the age range for "grad-hood" was something like 18-36 months. Even in cultures where EC is the norm and has always been, some kids aren't there until 36 mo. Does that help? I don't know!! That would be unbelievably frustrating, for sure!

[theboysmama]

-what about a wee man or peter potty? We never had one but my boys absolutely love using urnals!
-Placing cheerios in the big toilet was a fun game that they could play. I just kept a baggie of them on the back of the toilet and they could toss a handful in themselves and then aim away. I had a stool for them to stand on.
-Wait until summer and go camping for a few weeks (my kids thought peeing outdoors was awesome)
-use padded trainers to keep the house from getting as wet and smelly
-when my boys were no longer having misses (at least not often) then they got to go on a big boy lunch with papa. They all have looked forward to it (I guess it is kind of a bribe but in a positive kind of way, not like going and buying a big toy)

I am so sorry you are frustrated. Hang in there it will happen before you know it.

[sapphire_chan]

: that things go better.

Maybe read Sgmom's recent thread about a similar problem? And see how Hrsmom handled her dd's looooong full potty strike?

[InMediasRes]

I got so fed up frustrated with my toddler PLing too. And he was only kinda ECd, so I can see how you would be way beyond wanting to be done.

One thing I didn't really see mentioned is that you have a 4 mo baby and maybe he's just not adjusted to that yet? Is he's using it to get your attention (especially if you're sure he has that kind of sphincter control) because you are really busy with the baby? My youngest just turned 1 and I still don't think DS is fully adjusted, and he went through lots of bouts of doing well/not doing well.

I'm sure you have tried it, but do you just go naked sometimes? I used to let DS be naked and then just plop him on the potty mid-stream. At least I was catching half of it!

[Breeder]

I was where you are with my first kiddo, frustrated, tired of cleaning up pee, and just plain angry and then somebody said this to me:

That little boy will be potty trained when HE is ready and not a second before.

Yes, you have to clean it up, you have to deal with it. But its not about you. Its about him. Where you pee is something no one else can control but you.

It sounds like this is hurting your relationship with your little boy. Put him in diapers and give it some time. Truthfully, he's still a very little dude. My DS1 was 3 before he was fully accident free.

[zoebird]

he's a little dude. that is so cute.

and seriously, don't worry, as it will be before his first real girlfriend or going off to college. it's likely that he'll stop sleeping in your bed before then too (if you cosleep), and he'll know how to read, and might even do his own laundry.

it's really all about perspective. it's just to just get yourself a bit of a break and off the hook. he's in a pause or he is whatever. it is what it is.

and yeah, it's not fun, but it's ok. it really is ok.

[riboflavin]

My little guy was still sometimes having accidents around that time. It can be very frustrating at that age especially having EC’d from birth. We started around 5 weeks. Some things that helped us were:

•Imitating accidents with his toys, especially in the bath. “The ducky has to go pp! Put him in the potty (a little dish) so he doesn’t get pp all over the tub”! And have the ducky go pp in the tub and all the other toys not like it.

•Watching the Once Upon a Potty Video. Worked wonders for both my kids. Especially with a little potty in the room.

•I just simply asked DS one day very gently and sincerely, “Why don’t you go potty in the potty?” He looked a little embarrassed by the question, didn’t answer, but that was something that helped jump start it for some reason!

•I know that often at that age they want privacy, but can be too young to do it all by themselves. You can make it as easy as possible by setting up a private place with a potty he can use on his own. Maybe split crotch pants could help, so he wouldn’t have to undress.

•My DH did do bribing a little to jump start it too. I know, not the most PD thing, but it was his deal. He bought DS a match box car for poops (because that was our biggest trouble due to his need for privacy and not wanting to sit on the toilet ‘waiting’ for it to be ‘ready’) Doing that a few times got him into it, and eventually DH stopped buying them. I never did the rewards like that, but he went for me just as much around that time. It actually did seem help motivate the break of the strike.

•Cleaning up messes helped for us, but I see that is not working for you right now.

•I know this is weird, but DS loved when we told him to close his eyes on the potty. He liked going with his eyes closed. Still does sometimes.

•Maybe some potty books, if you haven't already?

•Did you do some of the classics? Like many different types of potties, in different locations? Different potty cozies to make things fun? Old wood potty chairs (craigslist!), different plastic types, kid urinal, kid seat on the big potty, etc? All these things helped us at different times.

•Maybe turn lights off in bathroom and bring in flashlights for cool flashlight shows when he sits on the potty.

Its such a tough age because some just want to be so independent at that age. They resent having to be helped with everything. They so want to do things themselves and are pretty tired of people telling them what to do. Any sort of pressuring them into it seems to make them want to rebel and do the opposite. They have control over where they potty and you can’t stop it! My observations with my DS anyway. So you have to be so creative finding ways to encourage it without them feeling pressured.

[georgiamum]

the one thing that I didn't see you mention trying is positive reinforcement. this has been scientifically studied and you can read about the exact right way to do behavior modification with children. There is a method, and it will work if you do it correctly.

I think it fits in with EC because it is a completely positive way of shaping their behavior. it sounds like EC isn't going so well for you and you need to try something different. and btw, positive reinforcement is not the same as bribery.

read "don't shoot the dog" by Karen Pryor. it's about how to use positive reinforcement to shape the behavior of humans of all ages and animals.

[kcparker]

Lots of good suggestions. We can get him to potty sometimes if one of his toys needs to potty too, and he will sometimes just sit them on the potty on his own (his plastic shark likes to pee in the BIG toilet, not a potty though).

We had the potty signs DVD, a friend gave us the once upon a potty for boys doll and mini-potty, and he watched the DVD, played with the doll and potties other toys on the potty too.

For awhile, we had a "potty hut" made of a big cardboard box, but he will ask for company if we offer to leave the room, and he never just wanders into the bathroom on his own.

The stuffed animals imitating pee accidents and doing other sensory things like closing the eyes, playing with flashlights (I suppose we could do scents too)
In the positive reinforcement arena, we have tried:
- being low-key and saying the following: "Way to go!" "You did really well at noticing that you needed to pee!" "Thanks for telling me you had to go so we could go to the potty together."
- doing high fives
- offering to read a book or sing songs while he sits on the potty
- offering treats and stickers when he potties (this was started by his daycare, and while I never thought I'd give out stickers, he started asking for them when he peed, and I figured, what the heck - it works at daycare, and they give the kids stickers from the fruit they serve half the time)
- offering a special treat at the end of the day (kefir or candles at dinner)
- giving him a hug and telling him he did a good job listening to his body
- doing a conga line dance to the bathroom and another when we leave
- having "pee races" and letting him win
- telling him that if he makes it through yoga class without peeing his pants, we can go get a snack together, just me and him (and no baby)
- I gave him a foot and leg massage last night when he was sitting on the potty - he told us twice when he had to poop last evening, and then said it again when he was in bed, so we got up and he peed, but no poop. He knows that the potty can be a delaying tactic.
We have never bothered with a sticker chart because he just doesn't seem to care that much about ANY of the above-mentioned reinforcements, though he will sometimes ask for a sticker or chocolate chip randomly. But even when offered, sometimes he'd just sort of ignore the offer. I don't know, maybe we are doing it totally wrong.

[georgiamum]

here is an interesting article by a psychologist who specializes in child behavior about how to use positive reinforcement
http://www.slate.com/id/2188744/pagenum/all/#p2

[srs]

from one ECer turned reluctant PL'er as well. I also read the thread in Parenting, and you got some great advice and understanding. I have a later ECer (almost 3), and I've come to accept that for us, EC was a great way to keep her dry and clean in infancy and toddlerhood, and now the rest is up to her. So it's not a failure, it's just the next chapter. And if it will make you feel better, she's had a huge leap in the past week about understanding and initiation and willingness to be responsible for her pottying, and this is at 35 months. Your DS will get there too, I'm sure, probably sooner rather than later.
And from a practical perspective, one of the best recent investments I've made is two days' worth of Imse Vimse waterproof trainers.

[kcparker]

Thanks for all the wisdom and commiseration people have been floating my way. I appreciate it, because I fully realize I am actually being the bigger baby in this scenario.

I have a later ECer (almost 3), and I've come to accept that for us, EC was a great way to keep her dry and clean in infancy and toddlerhood, and now the rest is up to her.

That is a good way to look at it - ECing worked really well for us for a long time, and we are sort of 'beyond EC' now. He stayed relatively dry and poop-free when he needed lots of assistance, and he's gotten all the learning I think can be gotten out of the process. Now, everyone is right - the ball is in his court, and I just have to cool my heels until he decides to take care of business on his own.

I suppose this will also not be even close to the last time I wring my hands and say, "I don't understand what is going on in his head!" Last evening, he both pottied independently AND wet his pants at different points.

At least he has gouged the sharp corners off his parents' expectations for his little brother. I am so much more relaxed about ECing DS2 (and everything else, for that matter) than I was with DS1 at the same point in his infancy.

[georgiamum]

another little idea - whether he is wearing underwear or trainers, maybe he can always wear a pull on waterproof cover over it (like bummis or dappis, both cheap) and then at least you won't have wet carpet, but he will still feel wet when he goes in his pants

[chinupchamp]

oh I hear you!

I am so with you on this, KC. I thought it was the cat's meow when I was in London England when DD was just under one and we didn't even have to bring diapers with us! She got it really early on and still does well with her poops, but I'll tell you, I feel like I am on my last leg with her peeing her pants. Like you, I don't see any rhyme or reason to her accidents. She's 2 and three months. She will use the potty, pull her pants down on her own, but man, she peed herself three times at the grandparents this morning. I feel like a pretty lousy billboard for the "Diaper Free Baby". No one would EVER EC their kid after watching me wipe pee up like I do.

I dont have any real practical advise for you - except what's already been said here. Imse Vimse trainers are great (unfortunately, my DD won't wear any kind of underwear at all).

Something that my cousin's daycare provider said to her is maybe of interest:

She was ready to potty train (her words) her three year old for the first time. I introduced her to EC when her DD was about 15 mo and they were visiting and she was going on the potty, but my cousin let it slide because they were planning a long trip and she didn't want to have to worry about where her DD would pee while on the road...wouldn't have been my choice but it's not my child either.

So anyway, her daycare provider suggested that you go to the dollar store and get some cheap crap from china or whatever - you know, kids stuff, crayons etc - and, here's the important part, wrap each item in really colourfull wrapping paper with bows etc. According to the daycare provider, it's not about the present so much as the wrapping. They are divided into pee presents and poop presents (which I think are bigger or better or something). Each time her DD goes on the potty she gets a gift that corresponds with whatever job she accomplished. She was pretty much going on the toilet in a day. A couple accidents here and there, but I think my cousin is satisfied with the result.

Now the fine-print:

I thought that the goal of EC was to keep it real with the bodily functions - not something to get all worked up about, it's just something that we do. So hold my applause was the message I got from the two seminal books on the subject. I do the hi fives etc like you.

Also, I think the books say that it was very un-EC to bribe, con or berate our kids into using the potty. After a month of constant pee on the floor, you can bet I have lost it a couple of times. I know it's wrong and I am working on my attitude. But pee all over the house is not cool in my books, especially when it hasn't been the norm and I have packed all my dipes away for baby number 2.

Lastly, I get that this method that my cousin and her daycare provider can be thought of as wasteful, cluttering, earth-destroying, capitalism-supporting and deceitful. Please don't flame me for mentioning it. I am just telling the forum what one member of my family had done and that it "seems" to have worked for her. It's not something I have tried yet, mostly because I don't buy that kind of stuff as a rule.

I thought it was worth posting becuase I feel your pain and I wanted to send you some good vibes. Also, this daycare provider has "trained" hundreds of kids this way. I thought it was worth mentioning and getting and giving some feedback.

Best of luck mama.
Lisa s

[sapphire_chan]

Maybe if instead of making it a reward for using the potty ("You're a GOOD child for pooping") tell the child the whole truth about the goal of the toys. Explain that you've noticed they're having trouble getting to the potty on time and, since having dry pants isn't enough motivation, you're going to help them out with these little presents. And that it's important to YOU that pee goes in the potty since it's frustrating to have a dirty house.


Although, personally, I'd prefer a bribe of a trip to someplace fun, since that can be more self-motivating. "I want to go to X!" Well, X sounds great, but X would be a lot more fun if we didn't have to worry about wet pants. So you and a parent could go to X together, after you've had two weeks of remembering to use the potty every time.

[kcparker]

Lisa, thank you SO MUCH for writing that. I am so glad that I am not the only one who has these struggles or has lost it because of pee on the rug for the umpteenth time from a kid who keeps insisting he "doesn't gotta have to pee."

I bought some Dappis online that he can wear over undies. We have tried giving "payments" for deposits using Panda licorice, his favorite treat, because I was ready to stoop to bribery to motivate him. It didn't work for long. I have also considered holding out the promise of more yoga classes when his teacher returns from her vacation, or swimming lessons in summer if he is pottying in the potty consistently by then, but I don't know if he's old enough to hold such a long-term goal in his mind day to day, hour to hour. If he can't remember that he can have a licorice for peeing in the potty, how can he remember a reward that is intangible and offered at some point in the hazy future?

Here's the thing that I thought about EC that has turned out not to be so true for us - I thought it was supposed to keep the CHILD in tune with his own bodily functions so that they are "like animals, who by nature never soil their own nests". The communication part was great - I am awesome at reading baby body language and can tell my friends when their kids are going, I get phantom pee on my leg right before a pee, etc. etc. The meeting baby's potty needs part was great and worked really well. The environmentally friendly part was great. It's the internal motivation to stay dry that somehow didn't work so great...

He's such a mystery to me. We were eating breakfast and talking about signs he knows and how he can teach his little brother signs soon. We were going through them - ambulance, nursing, shark, potty, more, etc. My DH was joking that a potty emergency could be shaking a letter T back and forth (shaking an E is emergency). So then DS signs and says, "Potty emergency!" and I ask, "Really?" and he replies in the affirmative. So, we tell him, "Okay, get down and there's a potty!" and he made a huge poop and a pee...so, he does know and act on it sometimes. I am hoping that with the covers, I can relax a little, stop feeling like I need to ride herd, and maybe he will decide that it's easier to pee in the potty than change pants, cover, and undies if he wets them...I keep thinking of the horse whisperer method - "make the desired thing easy, and the undesirable thing difficult," but it's still shooting in the dark to figure out how to make this work with pottying.

[dogretro]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

Maybe if instead of making it a reward for using the potty ("You're a GOOD child for pooping") tell the child the whole truth about the goal of the toys. Explain that you've noticed they're having trouble getting to the potty on time and, since having dry pants isn't enough motivation, you're going to help them out with these little presents. And that it's important to YOU that pee goes in the potty since it's frustrating to have a dirty house.


Although, personally, I'd prefer a bribe of a trip to someplace fun, since that can be more self-motivating. "I want to go to X!" Well, X sounds great, but X would be a lot more fun if we didn't have to worry about wet pants. So you and a parent could go to X together, after you've had two weeks of remembering to use the potty every time.

I have seen the potty presents technique mentioned and used on a great parenting site that I love. Really, it is more about the allure of the basket full of shiny, fancy wrapped gifts than anything else. A reminder about getting to go to the zoo in two weeks is great and all, but for a 2-3 year old, they cannot always comprehend tomorrow let alone next week. The parent is also not supposed to say anything about the gift basket until the kid sees it and asks. Then, the parent, nonchalantly, says something like, "Oh, those are potty presents. Every time you pee or poop on the potty, you get to pick one out and open it." The kid is supposed to go nutso w/ joy and pee on the potty 8 bazillion times Supposedly it works better than sticker charts b/c a toy is something tangible and immediate, same w/ candy motivators. All day long they can thing about their awesome new toys and that big basket full of new ones just waiting to be unwrapped. They can even go into the bathroom & see the basket sitting there on the counter. The point is that it is incredibly alluring and immediately positive.

Whether or not to use bribes is a personal decision each family needs to make. For some kids, graduation comes smoothly, albeit at different ages. For others, they just won't go quietly. Incorporating some traditional potty training techniques seems fine to me as long as they are non-punitive.

[lisavark]

A bit OT, but I just wanted to point out, OP, that most of my friends who didn't EC and have boys about your son's age haven't really even started potty learning. And even though I agree with you that most kids "should" be potty learned before 3, the reality is that many, many kids in our society aren't. He's not seeing all his friends going potty or getting bad vibes from older kids when he pees himself. And I do think those things are factors in cultures where EC is common.

Also, I've heard lots of stories here and in other forums about the potty pause right before total potty independence...maybe this is that for you!

And I'm not above bribes either. Bribes work for us to turn a no into a yes. Have you tried combining timing with bribes? That's what I do now if DD has gone more than 2.5 hours without peeing. "It's time to go potty, DD!" "No!" "Would you like to go potty and then have a chocolate chip?" "Yes!" (Yes, I've stooped to using chocolate chips occasionally... )

Oh, another thing that's worked for me lately is incorporating potty into a projected routine. Like, "DD, it's time to go potty." "No!" "How about we read this book and then go potty?" "No!" "Ok, let's read this book, then do a potty dance, and then it will be time to go potty." "Yes." Then we read the book, and I ask her what's next. "Dance!" We do the dance--what's next? "Potty!" And usually then she'll happily take herself. My DD is younger, but maybe some of those ideas will help...