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Question about family friend

post #1 of 38
Thread Starter 
We've been keeping the children of friends for various reasons recently. In a normal week, we usually see them twice, and I have their son one afternoon a week at our house. The more he has been at our house, the more we've noticed that he makes very passive-aggressive moves to get what he wants. In my house, that's just one of those things that doesn't work, so my kids don't do it. I hate it when someone says something like, "it sure would be nice to have those windows open." Well, open them or ask me to do it. Don't expect me to jump to make you happy. Still, he's a child, and his parents do lots of jumping through hoops that I won't.

Here's the issue, though. When we tell him that he can't do something, he makes this awful screaming-yelling noise as if he's dying and then says "but I..." The ... is something that his parents have used as a reason for his behavior before. I need to go to the bathroom (not sure why this is so difficult). I'm starving (yeah, you had a snack an hour ago!). I'm just really tired. I'm too wound up. And on and on. An example: Dh and I took the kids to a pastry shop we frequent. (His family does, too, so this is *not* new territory.) He and DS wanted to sit in pretty high bar stools. Dh said okay, but you have to be careful. He gets up in his and then starts climbing onto his knees. The stool is wobbling, and he's starting to lose his balance. Dh grabbed his arm to balance him and turned him around. Then he said (no yelling, voice raised, sternness), "you have to sit down or you'll fall. If you can't sit, then you have to get down." He does the death cry and then says "I think I have to poop." So Dh takes him to the bathroom where he stays for 15 freakin' minutes. We check on him. He asks for "privacy," but we can hear him playing. In the end? No poop. No real effort or anything. This was the first incident, but now with the pattern, I realize that he did it because Dh told him he had to sit down.

Now, we're friends with this family. I love his parents dearly, but this is something that is a problem given how much he stays with us. I know he's just mimicking what he's heard. We pulled back from them for a few months because *all* of his behaviors are justified always. DS was starting to get really pissed about it and would say that Friend's mom *never* thinks he did anything. Or he would say that Friend would cry (apparently would tell DC beforehand) so that his mom would come and "fix" things for him. Friend clearly knows Mom is going to get him whatever he wants.

Do I say something? How? What? Part of me says it's not my business, but otoh, I do not tolerate forced screaming and crying very well. Last night he snatched a puzzle piece from Dh, and I seriously thought Dh was going to lose it with him. I don't know how to address or stop this issue without destroying the friendship.
post #2 of 38
Honestly, I'd have to need the money pretty bad for my kids to witness those shenanigans.
post #3 of 38
How old is the child? The screaming thing would drive me nuts but I'd be more likely to deal with it in a toddler than a 5 yo, for instance.
post #4 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by philomom View Post
Honestly, I'd have to need the money pretty bad for my kids to witness those shenanigans.
No, no. I'm doing this as a favor. We switch the kids one afternoon a week, which is why he's here at least once a week. The others have been for various things, but I'm not getting paid for him to be over.

He's 4. I'm really wondering if I'm expecting too much. My own kids wouldn't do these things, but then they know me. I'm just not sure if it's more typical than I realize.
post #5 of 38
Well, I definitely wouldn't say anything. While he behavior is irritating, it's not awful and it would probably really hurt your friend to hear you think her child is a mini-monster. I'd treat him as you treat your kids and hope he learns quickly that those tactics won't work on you, but besides that, I'd just deal with it or stop the arrangement.

My kids don't behave that way (usually...of course everyone has bad days!) but I have friends and family members whose kids can be very rude and I can see why - their parents respond positively to their rudeness. But it would need to be pretty severe for me to ever say anything. We all have our less-than-stellar moments with our kids and hopefully our friends and families aren't perched to comment if they see our mistakes.

Plus, being 4....well, that can be a rough age. Maybe the parents are kind of at a loss and are working on it.
post #6 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by VisionaryMom View Post
We switch the kids one afternoon a week, which is why he's here at least once a week. The others have been for various things, but I'm not getting paid for him to be over.

He's 4. .
I don't think you are expecting too much.

if it were me, I'd be a total chicken and say that the swapping thing just wasn't working. I'd end it without really saying "why." I have a hard time imagining how a conversation about "why" would go well.

I can't stand manipulative behavoir. This isn't a child I would want my child to stay friends with -- he's going to figure out ways to manipulate the other children. It's just icky.
post #7 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post
I don't think you are expecting too much.

if it were me, I'd be a total chicken and say that the swapping thing just wasn't working. I'd end it without really saying "why." I have a hard time imagining how a conversation about "why" would go well.
Yeah, that's my problem. Like I said, I do like the parents very much, and in general this child and my kids get along well. They have a toddler as well who needs to be held constantly or she cries (and sometimes still cried with us holding, rocking, swaying). She's not here on the afternoons, but when they were here for several hours earlier in the week, *I* wanted to cry by the end. I just don't know how to say it without being hurtful, which I don't want to do. (FWIW, they've had several friends & sitters who use avoidance tactics b/c of this, so I feel badly about it because they honestly don't seem to know why.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post
I can't stand manipulative behavoir. This isn't a child I would want my child to stay friends with -- he's going to figure out ways to manipulate the other children. It's just icky.
Yeah, he tries this. DD is still at the age that she just ignores him and goes about her business. DS is more confrontational. Their arguing has ramped up lately. Some is typical for their ages, but much of it is an attempt to manipulate. DS has a temper like mine, and he gets frustrated with it.
post #8 of 38
My youngest has a friend who is exactly the same. My ds has actually stopped inviting said friend over and limits contact to school due to his behaviour. I havent got a clue how to deal with it. The one observation I have noted is that the parents are very nonconfrontational and do not know how to argue.
post #9 of 38
I struggle with making too many excuses for DD's behavior. Thankfully, Dh does *not* experience this struggle and he keeps us a little more balanced.

If I were the mom, I guess I would appreciate a heads-up for the child's manipulative behavior. So, if I were you, and I really were good friends with the mom, I would probably say something like this:

"X, I've noticed something about your DS that I thought you might want to know. You have done such a great job as a mom at empathizing with him and trying to understand the root cause of his behaviors [which is probably great w/ a two year old, but *explaining* the thought process to a four year old is just excusing his behavior], but he is clearly so intelligent that he is starting to experience your empathy as excusing his behavior. For example," and then tell her the poop story.

If my DD were acting this way, especially w/ other people, I would definitely want to know.
post #10 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post
I can't stand manipulative behavoir. This isn't a child I would want my child to stay friends with -- he's going to figure out ways to manipulate the other children. It's just icky.
Yes, I agree totally.
post #11 of 38
Well, he's only four. I, personally, think it's kind of funny. I wish my four-year-old would say something like, "It sure would be nice if the window was open," instead of screaming, "Open the window, Mom!" as he's more likely to do.

Four-year-olds are a work in progress, ya know? If he's an only, he probably is a little less flexible than other kids, too.

I am kinda surprised that so many people are calling it manipulative. I don't know how manipulative a four-year-old can really be, or how their behavior can be "icky", but I have done a lot of daycare and seen a lot of different behavior and may have a higher tolerance for differences in preschool manners.

But, if it's not working for you, and you're sure it's not worth it to watch him, I would make up an excuse rather than point out all the irritating behaviors. They might feel like they had to defend, or even issue a rebuttal about your kids.
post #12 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuamami View Post
I am kinda surprised that so many people are calling it manipulative. I don't know how manipulative a four-year-old can really be, or how their behavior can be "icky",
that was my comment. When my DD was 5, we had a family friend whose DD was kinda manipulative, and it just kept escalating until one day she punched my DD in the face, pulled her hair, and when my DD started to cry starting doing things to try to make my DD laugh. It was twisted. She was just doing it to mess with my DD's head.

It ruined our friendship with the other family.

So, my BTDT advice is to keep a kid like this away from your child before it gets worse and your child is the target for their little need to control other people.

Also, when your child has told you that another child is unpleasant to be around and you know for a fact that the child is unpleasant to be around and yet you keep getting together to them, I think it sounds the child a bad message about our ability to hear them and believe them.
post #13 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuamami View Post
Well, he's only four. I, personally, think it's kind of funny. I wish my four-year-old would say something like, "It sure would be nice if the window was open," instead of screaming, "Open the window, Mom!" as he's more likely to do.

Four-year-olds are a work in progress, ya know? If he's an only, he probably is a little less flexible than other kids, too.

I am kinda surprised that so many people are calling it manipulative. I don't know how manipulative a four-year-old can really be, or how their behavior can be "icky", but I have done a lot of daycare and seen a lot of different behavior and may have a higher tolerance for differences in preschool manners.

But, if it's not working for you, and you're sure it's not worth it to watch him, I would make up an excuse rather than point out all the irritating behaviors. They might feel like they had to defend, or even issue a rebuttal about your kids.
I agree.

I'm also surprised that the OP finds this child's behavior extremely difficult. To me it sounds pretty normal for a four year old, especially one in different surroundings. For example, the barstool thing - my DD at four would HAVE to climb on those (they are just too cool) and being able to sit properly on them is something that she probably couldn't do for a few seconds without supervision. I would have stood by and spotted her, and given reminders, until she figured out what she could and couldn't do with the stool. If a male had spoken to her sternly, she would probably have burst into tears and wanted to get away from the situation, such as by saying she had to go to the bathroom.

As for being passive-aggressive, I don't even think I would label it that. It sounds like he might not know how to ask for things directly, or maybe he feels uncomfortable asking for things directly. For whatever reason. Who knows? He's only four.
post #14 of 38
This really doesn't sound all that difficult. My dd likes to play on stools, she sometimes wishes for things instead of asking, and she also sometimes makes frustrated noises when life isn't going her way. For the excuses, I usually just say "that's nice but you still need to not scream/not do ______ in this house, go ahead and go poop/rest/use your inside voice" and leave it at that unless I needed to remove him from an unsafe activity. If you want him to specifically ask for something instead of say he wishes for something tell him that and remind him when he wishes. I don't think wishes are horrible or that it is passive aggressive to wish for a window to be open. Maybe you just don't seem approachable to him so he isn't comfortable asking you straight out. My friends son says he wishes for things all the time when he is over and when I ask him if he would like me to grant his wish he always responds with very polite manners. I am not sure why you care that he was in the bathroom for so long without real poop. Maybe he was constipated or he just needed space from your family for a while. If it was taking up to much time or you knew for sure he was playing rather than talking to himself or singing while pooping, then I think you should have done what you would do with your kids in that situation.
post #15 of 38



4 year olds are all different, and also, my son who is 7 has constipation problems and sometimes will be in the bathroom for more than 15 minutes, and he sings and plays with his hands while he is in there. Sometimes, especially if he is nervous, he can't complete it. Then sometimes he will have to go 20 mins later to do just that.

Take heart, he's probably not *trying* to be difficult, he's just a small boy.
I know that it can be frustrating, but try to keep upmost patience, especially with a child who is probably feeling the stress of the situation himself.
post #16 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post
So, my BTDT advice is to keep a kid like this away from your child before it gets worse and your child is the target for their little need to control other people.
The kid in the OP doesn't really sound manipulative to me, though. The passive aggressive thing is really annoying (at least to me), but it doesn't mean the kid is going to end up punching people in the face. I knew a kid who was like that at four. He was also like that at 14. It drives me nuts, and he's learned not to do it with me (mostly). But, he's a nice person, and wonderful with little kids. I've never seen him just hurt someone for fun, and he has no need to control other people. He just found that, at home, he got better results by not being direct about what he wanted. I think his mom thought direct requests were rude or something.
post #17 of 38
When I read the OP I assumed the child was older based on the idea that he was "passive aggressive" and "manipulative". Those are things that 4 year olds aren't really capable of in the adult sense. They are just being 4 (FOUR) the only way they know how. I loved the PP who termed them a 'work in progress' as that is so very true. He is FOUR!!

Really, the best thing to do is set clear expectations of what works in your house and what doesn't. I hate to think that I am being judged (or my children are) based on their behaviour at that age. I am at the tail end of my 3rd 4-year-old phase. They are a quirky bunch for sure!
post #18 of 38
My daughter does the whole "I wish I had some cookie" thing. Sometimes she follows it up with "(Big sigh) I guess I'll never have another cookie". I don't think she is trying to be manipulative, just indirect. She knows I get annoyed by nagging perhaps.

In this case, it may be because you are not his parents, he doesn't feel comfortable asking directly. He probably thinks he's being subtle.
post #19 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountaingirl79 View Post
Take heart, he's probably not *trying* to be difficult, he's just a small boy.
I know that it can be frustrating, but try to keep upmost patience, especially with a child who is probably feeling the stress of the situation himself.
looking at it from the other family's POV, would you want to swap sitting once a week with a family whose child didn't like yours and whose parents thought your child was manipulative and passive aggressive?

Whether or not those judgements are correct, I don't see how continuing this child care trade-off is in anyone's best interest.
post #20 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post
looking at it from the other family's POV, would you want to swap sitting once a week with a family whose child didn't like yours and whose parents thought your child was manipulative and passive aggressive?

Whether or not those judgements are correct, I don't see how continuing this child care trade-off is in anyone's best interest.
I agree.
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