Question about family friend - Page 2

[wytchywoman]

I think a big motivator for him in his behavior is attention and payoffs. What do you think this behavior is earning him? I haven't seen it first hand so it is harder for me to sort that out, but my first guess would be attention. What would happen if you turned your back on him and ignored him when he makes his death cry and offers up an excuse? Or you could simply tell him that when he's ready to use his normal inside voice you'll be happy to speak to him and then walk away. In the beginning you will probably see an increase in the whining and crying, but once he realizes it's not going to give him what he wants it will probably fade. As for the "I sure wish..." comments, tell him straight forward that if he wants something he needs to ask for it directly, but this is something that I think needs to be taken with a grain of salt. People all communicate differently, and while it may drive you nuts, he's not being rude or anything. The toddler is another can of worms. My guess on this would be that she is too little to deal with the inconsistency of care givers. She's only with you one day a week and she's probably clingy and crying because she doesn't understand why she has to be with you and not mom and also doesn't have a concept of time so it probably seems to her like mom has been gone for ages.

[mumkimum]

I do think, to a degree, some of this kids behaviors are normal for the age (though perhaps exaggerated).

As for indirect comments - dd totally does this and it can really get to me too. I try (as hard as I can) to respond by saying "you know, if you want a bite of the cookie I'm eating you just say 'mommy, could I have a bite of your cookie'", or whatever. It helps to remember myself that she'll never not do this if I don't teach her something new to do.

With the screaming and excuses, if you're going to keep watching this kid (and IMO, maybe it'd be better to at least cut down the childcare exchange - every other week, or something, if it's becoming so disruptive) - I'd probably start responding by saying 'I need you to wait 3 minutes, then we'll talk about that' when you're in a similar situation.

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by Fuamami

Well, he's only four. I, personally, think it's kind of funny. I wish my four-year-old would say something like, "It sure would be nice if the window was open," instead of screaming, "Open the window, Mom!" as he's more likely to do.

Four-year-olds are a work in progress, ya know? If he's an only, he probably is a little less flexible than other kids, too.

I am kinda surprised that so many people are calling it manipulative. I don't know how manipulative a four-year-old can really be, or how their behavior can be "icky", but I have done a lot of daycare and seen a lot of different behavior and may have a higher tolerance for differences in preschool manners.

But, if it's not working for you, and you're sure it's not worth it to watch him, I would make up an excuse rather than point out all the irritating behaviors. They might feel like they had to defend, or even issue a rebuttal about your kids.

I agree with this and I think a playful babysitting approach might work with the wailing. When he wails and gives his excuse maybe come up with a fantastical response like "but but but but but but but but - are you a billy goat gruff? Look out, here comes the TROLLLL!" and then in a minute repeat the request. Alternatively, I like the walking away.

For the passive aggressive traits...I don't know. Different families and cultures communicate needs in different ways. In many many cultures (as well as microcultures) the kind of language you're talking about is what's polite and expected.

I think what makes it passive aggressive in an adult is when one person 'hints' at his/her needs and expects them to be met but doesn't make any attempt to:

a) pick up on OTHER people's hints and
b) escalate the communication if there's a problem but rather seeks to punish the person who didn't act on the cue.

In other words, and to be blunt, I'm thinking this is a hot button issue for you such that you've labelled one communication style that /may/ lead to PA behaviour as the sum total of PA behaviour.

In a four year old though, I wouldn't expect any of that to hold true in any permanent way. What does happen if you don't respond?

I don't think there's any problem with telling him "in our house we just ask, like this: please X." But bear in mind that then you have to reward him by responding to the X.

[sapphire_chan]

Could you be annoyed by his parents making excuses for him for everything and that's coloring how you view his behavior?

[sapphire_chan]

"I wish I had a cookie." is a way of avoiding hearing "no". If the parent doesn't want to give the kid a cookie, they just ignore the wish. Whereas, "can I have a cookie?" could get a "no you can't have a cookie."

Not sure why it's less bothersome to just not get a cookie than to not get a cookie and be told you can't get a cookie, but there it is.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by One_Girl

I am not sure why you care that he was in the bathroom for so long without real poop. Maybe he was constipated or he just needed space from your family for a while. If it was taking up to much time or you knew for sure he was playing rather than talking to himself or singing while pooping, then I think you should have done what you would do with your kids in that situation.

We were ready to go. He knew that we were leaving. In that situation, I would've told my kids that we were leaving, but I'm going to tell someone else's child that about potentially using the bathroom.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn

In other words, and to be blunt, I'm thinking this is a hot button issue for you such that you've labelled one communication style that /may/ lead to PA behaviour as the sum total of PA behaviour.

It's definitely a hot-button for me. The passive-aggressive comments aren't the bigger issue. They're more a minor annoyance that just grate on me when everything else seems to be a struggle, though most posters seem to be focusing on my statement about opening the window when it's was more of a passing comment.

Originally Posted by GuildJenn

In a four year old though, I wouldn't expect any of that to hold true in any permanent way. What does happen if you don't respond?

He repeats louder and louder. He's very demanding. "You push me on the swing now" in a gruff voice, for instance. I don't respond to that (or will just say "not when you say it that way"), and he will start crying and screaming. I've told him before that I don't respond to demands that I do something. He will keep repeating and then start growling. He does that even if I say that I'm busy with something and will be a minute - even when he *sees* that I'm doing something like changing a diaper and cannot stop to get out art supplies.

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

Could you be annoyed by his parents making excuses for him for everything and that's coloring how you view his behavior?

Maybe. I don't know. It's not that I don't understand the excuses. There are times when all of us, regardless of age, are grumpy because we're tired or hungry. I just see in them a danger in saying it so often to and around your children that they cannot distinguish between the idea that there may be a reason for a behavior, but it's still not acceptable. Snatching a toy or shoving a friend isn't okay just because you feel a small twinge of hunger, ya know?

I think what's coloring my perception is that I feel taken advantage of. The exchange is 3 hours a week, and that's okay. Lately, though, they've asked us to watch their kids for long stretches multiple times a week. It's getting to be too much because they are much needier than my own children or other children who come over to play.

Originally Posted by wytchywoman

I think a big motivator for him in his behavior is attention and payoffs. What do you think this behavior is earning him?

At my house, I try to make sure it doesn't earn anything. At his house, though, the screaming and crying earns him absolute attention. The world stops when he cries. I know our friends don't want to see their children upset. I understand that feeling, but I do think they've moved to the point of not allowing him the appropriate room to grow and learn that everything isn't always our way. People can be upset with you.

I think a good bit of it comes from never working through having a younger sibling come along. They said he didn't have any problems adjusting, but I see behavior that says he does. When the baby started crawling, he would push her down so she'd fall flat onto the floor. He hides his things from her. He doesn't want her to get attention. They're normal sibling jealousy, but I don't think they've been addressed. In the end, I believe the screaming and howling are ways to get everyone to turn away from any other child and to him.

Originally Posted by wytchywoman

The toddler is another can of worms. My guess on this would be that she is too little to deal with the inconsistency of care givers. She's only with you one day a week and she's probably clingy and crying because she doesn't understand why she has to be with you and not mom and also doesn't have a concept of time so it probably seems to her like mom has been gone for ages.

Yeah, I can deal much better with an 18-month-old crying than a 4-year-old trying to get everyone to focus on him all the time.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by BellinghamCrunchie

I'm also surprised that the OP finds this child's behavior extremely difficult. To me it sounds pretty normal for a four year old, especially one in different surroundings.

That's part of what I was asking. My children have not done those things. Then again, they wouldn't be successful with me, so they would learn quickly that they're ineffective. I don't recall my nephews doing any of those things, either, though they're a bit older now. We have other kids over but none this much.

Originally Posted by BellinghamCrunchie

For example, the barstool thing - my DD at four would HAVE to climb on those (they are just too cool) and being able to sit properly on them is something that she probably couldn't do for a few seconds without supervision. I would have stood by and spotted her, and given reminders, until she figured out what she could and couldn't do with the stool. If a male had spoken to her sternly, she would probably have burst into tears and wanted to get away from the situation, such as by saying she had to go to the bathroom.

This is an interesting way of looking at the situation, and I will take that into consideration. Though I can cut down on how much we have him, I cannot (and don't want to) never have him at my house. Plus we're involved with the parents in a number of projects that necessitate being with them a good bit.

I know many folks have suggested that we're unapproachable or otherwise causing this behavior, but we're not. He's with us at least 3 times a week (not always without his parents), and we normally get along fine. It's just lots of alone time that's made these issues stand out.

FWIW, my husband did not speak to him sternly at all. He was trying to finish up his drink and get on his jacket, and they wanted to try out the stools. He was just matter-of-fact that he had to sit still or get down because we were gathering our things to go.

Perhaps it's less malicious than I view it. I don't know. He let our dog out of the gate on Thursday. I was getting his sister out of the swing, and he opened the gate. I saw him but couldn't stop it. So, I said "everyone stay here. I have to chase the dog. Why did you let the dog out?" He did the screaming howl and said "but I'm STARVING!" WTH? Don't try to make excuses or change the subject or whatever you're doing. You did something I'd already told you *not* to do and don't want anything said to you. I know his mom's response would be, "you really wanted the dog out, didn't you? Is that why you opened the gate?" I could see her suggesting that he made a poor decision because he hadn't eaten yet (though he'd just had a snack, so it's not even a legitimate excuse). I'm thinking "great, now I have these kids in my backyard and I have to go chase my dog!"

My children know me better, so obviously I try to keep that in mind. I'm just not sure if I'm going too far the other way because I see so many excuses rather than redirection or correcting.

[kcstar]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom

It's definitely a hot-button for me. The passive-aggressive comments aren't the bigger issue. They're more a minor annoyance that just grate on me when everything else seems to be a struggle, though most posters seem to be focusing on my statement about opening the window when it's was more of a passing comment.

What is his home life like? The way I remember things, I was not allowed to directly ask for a lot of things. Since outright asking was verboten, we'd revert to the more passive form.

With a four-year-old, I would probably reply to an "I wish the window was open" phrase with a clarifying question like: "Do you want some more air?" And then I would present him with the two choices: "Option 1: If you want the window open, go open it. Option 2: Say 'Would you please open the window?'"

Teach him how to interact with you.

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom

He repeats louder and louder. He's very demanding. "You push me on the swing now" in a gruff voice, for instance. I don't respond to that (or will just say "not when you say it that way"), and he will start crying and screaming. I've told him before that I don't respond to demands that I do something. He will keep repeating and then start growling. He does that even if I say that I'm busy with something and will be a minute - even when he *sees* that I'm doing something like changing a diaper and cannot stop to get out art supplies.

I have had issues with other adults who have taken the "I don't respond to that" tactic with me in the past. I get emotional, and when my frustration / desperation levels get high enough, there will be tears. I feel that shutting down when a person cries ... can inadvertently teach the person that they don't matter.

I can certainly agree that this four-year-old should not use a gruff voice with you. I would also suggest that a four-year-old may not have good control of his emotions.

In one one of the MDC FAQ links to a "classism" site, it mentions this very thing, that upper classes may be taught not to show emotion.

I would suggest teaching him how to speak to you. Rather than a 'refusal' statement "not when you say it that way", I suggest asking, "Can you rephrase that? Can you say 'please push me on the swing now?'" And if he does say that, and ask nicer (expect it to still be a *little* gruff at first, if he's still angry/frustrated/unhappy), then follow through and push him. Teach him that when he directly asks you, nicely, you will (usually) do what he asks.

Does this make sense?

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by kcstar

What is his home life like? The way I remember things, I was not allowed to directly ask for a lot of things. Since outright asking was verboten, we'd revert to the more passive form.

Really? I find that sad. I don't see it with his family, though. I've tried telling him that he should ask if he needs/wants something. Even DS has told him that he should ask, but I really do see a need to have the wish granted without him having to ask for it.

Originally Posted by kcstar

I have had issues with other adults who have taken the "I don't respond to that" tactic with me in the past. I get emotional, and when my frustration / desperation levels get high enough, there will be tears. I feel that shutting down when a person cries ... can inadvertently teach the person that they don't matter.

I can certainly agree that this four-year-old should not use a gruff voice with you. I would also suggest that a four-year-old may not have good control of his emotions.

In one one of the MDC FAQ links to a "classism" site, it mentions this very thing, that upper classes may be taught not to show emotion.

I would suggest teaching him how to speak to you. Rather than a 'refusal' statement "not when you say it that way", I suggest asking, "Can you rephrase that? Can you say 'please push me on the swing now?'" And if he does say that, and ask nicer (expect it to still be a *little* gruff at first, if he's still angry/frustrated/unhappy), then follow through and push him. Teach him that when he directly asks you, nicely, you will (usually) do what he asks.

Does this make sense?

I've modeled saying please, but it hasn't worked. I just don't do well with "I'll have more juice. NOW!" Uh, no. I wouldn't allow another adult to talk to me that way, and though I grant leeway with children, there's still the general issue of respect for another person there.

[kcstar]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom

I've modeled saying please, but it hasn't worked. I just don't do well with "I'll have more juice. NOW!" Uh, no. I wouldn't allow another adult to talk to me that way, and though I grant leeway with children, there's still the general issue of respect for another person there.

I agree that "I'll have more juice. NOW!" should not get him more juice. He does need to learn to respect the other person.

What I do not agree with is ignoring the rude words. That is where I am suggesting that we use the moment as a teachable one.

child: "I'll have more juice. NOW!"

adult: "Can you ask nicely?"

child: "I WANT MORE JUICE!"

adult: "When you say "Please give me more juice", then you can have more juice." (I have been known to say "That's nice." or "I hear you. When you ask nicely, you will get it.")

<give it time...>

child: "Please give me more juice"

Juice poured.

[yokosmile]

Tell the family you won't be able to watch him anymore, problem solved.

[sapphire_chan]

Or at least cut it back to the 3 hours a week you used to do. And since you're friends with them, how about telling them he needs some practice with asking politely? (Although I know there are parents out there who'd get offended about that, even from a good friend who watched their kid for hours and hours a week, so be prepared.)

You have two kids, right? Could you recommend "this great sibling book I just read, it really helped with some minor issues I hadn't even realized were related to sibling issues?"

[sapphire_chan]

Also, what answer were you hoping for from "why did you let the dog out?" Even if he knows that he let the dog out to get attention away from his sister, would he admit it? "but I'm STARVING!" and similar excuses could be his way of saying "I don't know why I did it, I made a mistake, okay?"

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom

He repeats louder and louder. He's very demanding. "You push me on the swing now" in a gruff voice, for instance. I don't respond to that (or will just say "not when you say it that way"), and he will start crying and screaming. I've told him before that I don't respond to demands that I do something. He will keep repeating and then start growling. He does that even if I say that I'm busy with something and will be a minute - even when he *sees* that I'm doing something like changing a diaper and cannot stop to get out art supplies.

DS2 has absolutely no comprehension that if I'm doing something, I can't be doing something else. He'll have a full-on meltdown if he asks for a snack, and I say, "just a second, my hands are wet", while I'm washing dishes. He'll be five in July, and we're just not getting anywhere on making him understand that sometimes he has to wait, and that I (or dh or ds1) only have two hands.

Maybe. I don't know. It's not that I don't understand the excuses. There are times when all of us, regardless of age, are grumpy because we're tired or hungry. I just see in them a danger in saying it so often to and around your children that they cannot distinguish between the idea that there may be a reason for a behavior, but it's still not acceptable. Snatching a toy or shoving a friend isn't okay just because you feel a small twinge of hunger, ya know?

It may not be a small tinge of hunger. It may be blood sugar issues or something. That's definitely one of ds2's problems. And, honestly - there are plenty of adults who behave badly when they're tired or hungry. It's just not to the same extreme...because they're not four. I do get what you mean about saying it so often, but if this little boy is as much like ds2 as he sounds like, his parents are probably constantly looking for the magic answer (needs more sleep, needs more protein, needs...whatever!!) to deal with the behaviour.

I think what's coloring my perception is that I feel taken advantage of. The exchange is 3 hours a week, and that's okay. Lately, though, they've asked us to watch their kids for long stretches multiple times a week. It's getting to be too much because they are much needier than my own children or other children who come over to play.

This is too much, and it's no longer an exchange. They may well be a little burned out themselves, and don't realize that you're getting overloaded.

At my house, I try to make sure it doesn't earn anything. At his house, though, the screaming and crying earns him absolute attention. The world stops when he cries. I know our friends don't want to see their children upset. I understand that feeling, but I do think they've moved to the point of not allowing him the appropriate room to grow and learn that everything isn't always our way. People can be upset with you.

I agree with you...but I do give in to ds2 more often than I ever thought I would. I didn't in the past, but when this kind of crying, screaming, etc. just does not stop, no matter what you do, or what you model, it can wear you down. These parents may be giving him absolute attention, because they can't stand to see him upset. They may be giving him absolute attention, because they're worn out. It's really hard (impossible?) to tell from outside.

I think a good bit of it comes from never working through having a younger sibling come along. They said he didn't have any problems adjusting, but I see behavior that says he does. When the baby started crawling, he would push her down so she'd fall flat onto the floor. He hides his things from her. He doesn't want her to get attention. They're normal sibling jealousy, but I don't think they've been addressed. In the end, I believe the screaming and howling are ways to get everyone to turn away from any other child and to him.

Ouch. That one's bad news, I have to agree. I've seen that before. I think some parents feel that if a child has trouble adjusting to the new baby, it means the older one doesn't love the younger one, or that the older one is a horrible monster or something. So, they just go into denial about it, because if the older one is having trouble, then their family has a fatal flaw...or something. I just can't relate to that. It's hard to have mom and dad suddenly pay all their attention to a new baby. DS2 has had a few issues with dd2 - heck, even dd1 has had a few. They adore her...but they occasionally wish she'd just disappear (or at least go to sleep) for a few hours, so I won't be changing diapers, nursing, bouncing the baby, etc., and can pay attention to them. I think that's totally normal.

Yeah, I can deal much better with an 18-month-old crying than a 4-year-old trying to get everyone to focus on him all the time.

I know that feeling. I've taken to thinking of ds2 as a (big) toddler. That seems to be where he is, emotionally and developmentally and I can't force that, yk?

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom

That's part of what I was asking. My children have not done those things. Then again, they wouldn't be successful with me, so they would learn quickly that they're ineffective. I don't recall my nephews doing any of those things, either, though they're a bit older now. We have other kids over but none this much.

DS2 is the only one in the family (my four, and my eight nieces and nephews) with this kind of issue. It does seem to be developmental. His behaviour wasn't successful with us for a long time - and still generally isn't, although I do give in more, as I mentioned above - but that changed nothing. He simply can't handle things, and doesn't know what's wrong, or, if he does know, he can't verbalize it.

FWIW, my husband did not speak to him sternly at all. He was trying to finish up his drink and get on his jacket, and they wanted to try out the stools. He was just matter-of-fact that he had to sit still or get down because we were gathering our things to go.

I think some kids really react badly, emotionally, to being thwarted, no matter how gently. I've lost my cool and yelled at ds2 more times than I like to remember...but he reacts about as badly to a gentle, "not right now" as to me flipping out.

Perhaps it's less malicious than I view it. I don't know. He let our dog out of the gate on Thursday. I was getting his sister out of the swing, and he opened the gate. I saw him but couldn't stop it. So, I said "everyone stay here. I have to chase the dog. Why did you let the dog out?" He did the screaming howl and said "but I'm STARVING!" WTH? Don't try to make excuses or change the subject or whatever you're doing. You did something I'd already told you *not* to do and don't want anything said to you. I know his mom's response would be, "you really wanted the dog out, didn't you? Is that why you opened the gate?" I could see her suggesting that he made a poor decision because he hadn't eaten yet (though he'd just had a snack, so it's not even a legitimate excuse). I'm thinking "great, now I have these kids in my backyard and I have to go chase my dog!"

That sounds like he wanted attention that his baby sister was getting - but he may not have any idea that's why he did it (if it is...that's what it sounds like).

It honestly doesn't sound so much as if his parents are making excuses as trying to figure out, and help him figure out, what's going on with him. (Of course, they seem to have a blind spot about his baby sister, which won't help.) Believe me, when you have a child who is acting out like this all the freaking time, finding a cause/reason becomes almost obsessive. I, personally, keep thinking if we can just find "why", we can solve the problem. In this situation, your friends probably wouldn't find the "why", because it sounds like it was about his baby sister again...so they'd go with an old standby, such as "he's hungry".

My children know me better, so obviously I try to keep that in mind. I'm just not sure if I'm going too far the other way because I see so many excuses rather than redirection or correcting.

FWIW, we've done much better with ds2 through trying to figure out what's going on with him (eg. "excuses") than we ever have with redirection ( - I'd rather try to single-handedly "redirect" a river) or correction.

I really don't know how much this little boy is like my ds2, but it sounds as if they're very similar. DS2 has a lot of unmet emotional/psychological needs, and we're constantly trying to figure out what they are.

[Tjej]

I am at a similar place with a 5yo I have been watching this school year. I am tired of the conflict. It is really hard to be caring for a child who is older than my 2 kids who is somehow incapable of behaving anywhere near as well as my 2yo. It's exhausting and I am SOOO happy that it is spring break right now.

Its hard for me because we love this boy and we love his family. I KNOW his parents (his mom especially) would be really hurt if I laid out the "issues" I'm having with his behavior. There is always a "reason" for everything, and while I fully agree that there are reasons that kids misbehave, I also am very much of the mind that enforcing excuses in front of kids does not help build their character.

I can't stand the example my kids are getting from him. I am constantly having to lower my standards for behavior because of his abilities (or inabilities) to behave. If everything is not exactly as he wants it when he wants it, my life is guaranteed to be difficult and filled with howls and/or whining and/or bawling and/or snotty behavior and outright defiance. If our day can be just the way he wants it, then everything is usually fine and he's really sweet and kind and fun (albiet a bit wild, but he's a 5yo boy).

Anyway, I don't think I have much good advice. I have tried being consistent, but with this child being here only 6-10 hours a week, I find that his negative behaviors are reinforced enough at home (and school?) that we seem to be starting over all the time. I remain consistent, and if I look back to where we started in the fall, we have come a long ways, but man... it is still FAR from where I can come out of it not being drained.

I have given him scripts to repeat when I want him to talk about things in a different way, and that does help. I have to repeat these scripts ad nauseum, but he will say things in more polite ways to me and the kids, and will choose better words when I give him better words to work with. So getting him to repeat an acceptable phrase when he uses an unacceptable one might be helpful.

I'm subbing for ideas too. I value our friendship with this family enough that I really can't express the problems we are having with them. I know the school has expressed them to the family and the mom especially is just really upset with the school and anyway... I won't lie, but they really haven't asked me. I am just trying to figure out how to make it through the school year and have it work out well for all of us - our friends, their little boy, our kids, and me and DH.

Tjej

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by Tjej

I'm subbing for ideas too. I value our friendship with this family enough that I really can't express the problems we are having with them.

Yes, this is how I feel. Several people have said just to stop watching him, but the situation really is more complex. Friend's Dad and I serve on a couple of nonprofit boards together, we have the same circle of friends in a not-so-crunchy place and really I enjoy the parents' company. My children and this little boy do get along most of the time. It's only been in the last 2 weeks that DS has started making comments about Friend screaming to get his way. But they still hug and say they love each other and are best friends, so I can chalk that up to my DS learning about friendships and how to navigate conflicts with friends. We've been working with him on what he can do if the screaming happens and how he can handle it.

StormBride, thanks for your detailed response. You've given me a lot to consider about why Friend may be doing these things. I know some think I've come off as if I hate this child and am horrible to him, but that really isn't the case. I take lots of deep breaths and try to work with him where he is. We went through a loooong time with DS when he had tantrums all the time, and our efforts didn't seem to work for quite a while. I think some of the difference, though, is that both of my children are incredibly verbal. With the "but I'm STARVING" example I gave up-thread, my son wouldn't have done that. He would've been able to articulate why he let the dog out, even if it was "because I wanted to see if he would run away." Some of my stress here is being with a child a year older than DD who's no one near as verbal, and I know I need to take a step back from that.

I talked to MIL about this issue this weekend since she knows the family. I came away with a couple of insights that I think will help. I think this family is great with practicing gentle language with their children, and they could be a Dr. Sears poster family. I really think they believe that he eventually will learn how to speak to people, but they aren't prepared to deal with him *not* doing that now.

His dad did tell my husband recently that he's looking for new solutions because he's "tired of being yelled at by a 4-year-old all the time."

They honestly don't know what to do, and so they've let it go. When they talk about how to respond, and he just says "no, I'm not doing that," they aren't prepared for what to do next. So instead it's allowed him to control their schedule (can't tell you how many times they've been late or missed something because he just refused to go or had reason after reason to need to wait longer) and everything about their lives. We aren't consensual, but we do give our children a great deal of input. At some point, though, one person shouldn't be holding everyone else hostage, and that's what's happening. Mom is overwhelmed (a PP mentioned that possibility), and I know that's why they've had "emergencies" that necessitated leaving him with me for a few hours. I just don't know how to be supportive to them (because I *do* value their family's friendship) and not hurt my own family.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom

His dad did tell my husband recently that he's looking for new solutions because he's "tired of being yelled at by a 4-year-old all the time."

Their child is out of control and needs some structure.

It sounds harsh, but it's true. We are totally into *gentle discipline* but word discipline is just as important as gentle.

They need to get it together NOW while the child is small enough to control because this isn't going to get easier as the kid gets bigger and the problems become more and more entrenched.

Mom is overwhelmed (a PP mentioned that possibility), and I know that's why they've had "emergencies" that necessitated leaving him with me for a few hours. I just don't know how to be supportive to them (because I *do* value their family's friendship) and not hurt my own family.

There's a difference between being support and enabling. Their dynamic is messed up and until they get serious about fixing it, there's really nothing you can do to help. It's possible that you watching the child just puts off them getting serious with themselve about the fact that they HAVE to change something.

Could you give them a book on GD? I like Liberated Parents, Liberated Children. There are a lot of good options. You might pre-read a couple and see if it would mesh with their core beliefs but give them a new direction.